All my debuffs stick...

[Uzor]

oh, yeah. Just to clarify, when I said twice I ment "Rarily resisted", not that it only got resisted twice

 

[Pascal]

Dispel is, from what I can see, only based on enfeebling magic since it's an instant spell (as in, there is no "stick" rate on it). It either hits or is resisted, so int is pretty much useless in this case.

There is a thread on here where I was leveling in a party 8 levels above me and the monsters 12 levels me. As a RDM/WHM I was unable to land Dispel, but once I switched to RDM/BLM with a full INT swap in, I was actually able to land Dispel. While MND/INT affects the effectives of the spell, it is also taken into account when determining if the spell will land or be resisted, but I agree Skill adding gear is more important than base stat gear, but both go hand in hand.

 

[Pascal]

http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=5378&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=dispel&start=0

 

[Uzor]

Dispel is, from what I can see, only based on enfeebling magic since it's an instant spell (as in, there is no "stick" rate on it). It either hits or is resisted, so int is pretty much useless in this case.

There is a thread on here where I was leveling in a party 8 levels above me and the monsters 12 levels me. As a RDM/WHM I was unable to land Dispel, but once I switched to RDM/BLM with a full INT swap in, I was actually able to land Dispel. While MND/INT affects the effectives of the spell, it is also taken into account when determining if the spell will land or be resisted, but I agree Skill adding gear is more important than base stat gear, but both go hand in hand.

if the monster was 12 lvls above you the exp mobs just suck anyway. I think it more depended on day, moon phase and luck. And in a normal case, you do not exp on mobs 12 levels above you.

I do not know if it's special for dispel since it's an "instant" spell, but MND/INT mainly affects how long a spell lasts, in which case I could understand it being dispels's modifier. The stick rate and effect of enfeebles differ depending on your INT and MND. If your MND is higher then the mobs MND, MND based enfeebles will stick longer. Same with INT. Very much like damaging spells, but still very different. Both INT and MND affect the resist rate on MND/INT based enfeebles, but not nearly as much as skill. The formulae for enfeebles and magic spells and resist are quite advanced, and there's probably a lot that people have not found out.

As for elemental spells, a Mithra, Hume and Tarutaru will ALWAYS ALWAYS outdamage an Elvaan or Galka if they are naked. Elemental Magic effects RESISTANCE, not damage. I admit that, we are not equally good in magic DAMAGE, but Red Mages are not supposed to be damage dealers anyway.

They also affect how long and strong a spell on you.

On another note,MND also helps making Stoneskin stronger.

 

[Uzor]

I read that thread, and it was against an Antican. Not very odd then since it was 12 levels above you. Easy PRey skeletons haev resisted my Paralyze and Dispel since they are strong to ice and darkness, not very odd

 

[Rones]

What you are saying seems off with what I've experienced before Uzor. I was under the impression enfeebles had a set duration, but you could get partial resists that shorten their duration to like 1/2. Perhaps some stop watch testing is neccessary to see if adding mnd increases the average max duration.

What I have seen and experienced is +mnd will increase the effectiveness of enfeebles, eg: paralyze kicks in more and slow has a stronger effect. This was proven by Applepie several months back on ffxionline.com with the help of some of his JP friends. They performed a bunch of tests recording the average number of times paralyze kicked in and then would increase the +mnd by a little more (doing several tests on each +mnd lvl). The same was done with slow as well. The findings showed increase effectiveness as your mnd surpassed the mob's mnd.

 

[Uzor]

which is like I said, increased effectivness.

and I believe only sleep is on a set times. the other enfeebles, like slo, paralyze etc. have a chance to wear off each "tick". It's like the dice rolling gobbie in Movalpolos. The more gil you bet the higher chance you have of winning.

The more MND you have, the less is the chance it'll wear off on a "tick".

But what you say is interresting about other enfeebles having a set time too. I think I'll go test it out to be sure.

 

[Rones]

Well I just finished an hour of testing and here are my results:
My base mnd is 69 and 212 enfeebling skill as 75whm/blm. All testing was done on lightsday with a 5% new moon. Test spell was paralyze, didn't want to risk conflicting factors by doing paralyze and slow at the same time.

Test 1, Kons Higlands against Wasps. I changed wasps after each test in case they built up some kind of resistance or something.

69+0mnd     69+44mnd 
102 sec       75 sec
109           55
68            63
97            100
87            23
65            58 
65            50

Test 2, Worker Crawler in Yohater jungle next to telepoint. I did 2 tests per crawler because they took me a while to kill. :lol:

69+0mnd    69+44mnd
59            32
68            45
82            118
41            50
44            44
45            58
42            34

The duration seemed highly random. I could find no correlation which supports my theory or Uzor's. This leaves me really in the dark as to what determines the duration. It is quite possible my test was not large enough, but even then I would expect to seem some small semblance of a correlation with a +44 difference in mnd. It could be my test mobs were just too far below me to get an accurate reading. Perhaps someone could get some timings while doing some skill up on ep's or god pop farming in sky (although mob's might be killed too fast for this) as I imagine rdm's are too busy to do this kind of timing while exping.

 

[Pascal]

which is like I said, increased effectivness.

and I believe only sleep is on a set times. the other enfeebles, like slo, paralyze etc. have a chance to wear off each "tick". It's like the dice rolling gobbie in Movalpolos. The more gil you bet the higher chance you have of winning.

The more MND you have, the less is the chance it'll wear off on a "tick".

But what you say is interresting about other enfeebles having a set time too. I think I'll go test it out to be sure.

Under that theory the moment you swapped in INT gear, your MND base enfeebles would have a much greater chance of wearing off the very next tick, meaning that any gear swapping is actually counter productive.

My understanding is they function similar to cure spells. Our Enfeebling skill sets the maximum time duration as well as the effectiveness cap until we reach the hard cap, but each spell does have a set maximum. An example of the hard cap would be a level 75 player casting on a level 1 monster. If there was no cap your spell would never wear off and paralyze would kick in every single tick, because the resistance factor there should be nil.

 

[Rones]

Under that theory the moment you swapped in INT gear, your MND base enfeebles would have a much greater chance of wearing off the very next tick, meaning that any gear swapping is actually counter productive.

The enfeeble is determined when you cast it. What you are wearing later has no bearing on the enfeeble. What he means is if I cast it with +40 mnd, then each tick should have a better chance of not wearing regardless of what I have equiped 20 seconds after casting it.

 

[Pascal]

Rones prove that wrong. Nevermind.

 

[Uzor]

Well I just finished an hour of testing and here are my results:
My base mnd is 69 and 212 enfeebling skill as 75whm/blm. All testing was done on lightsday with a 5% new moon. Test spell was paralyze, didn't want to risk conflicting factors by doing paralyze and slow at the same time.

Test 1, Kons Higlands against Wasps. I changed wasps after each test in case they built up some kind of resistance or something.

69+0mnd     69+44mnd 
102 sec       75 sec
109           55
68            63
97            100
87            23
65            58 
65            50

Test 2, Worker Crawler in Yohater jungle next to telepoint. I did 2 tests per crawler because they took me a while to kill. :lol:

69+0mnd    69+44mnd
59            32
68            45
82            118
41            50
44            44
45            58
42            34

The duration seemed highly random. I could find no correlation which supports my theory or Uzor's. This leaves me really in the dark as to what determines the duration. It is quite possible my test was not large enough, but even then I would expect to seem some small semblance of a correlation with a +44 difference in mnd. It could be my test mobs were just too far below me to get an accurate reading. Perhaps someone could get some timings while doing some skill up on ep's or god pop farming in sky (although mob's might be killed too fast for this) as I imagine rdm's are too busy to do this kind of timing while exping.

If you would put that up as proof on any site people would flame you like hell, because quite frankly, about 10 tests are WAY too little. In order to get real results, you would need roughly 1,000 tests or so on the same day, moonphase etc. etc. Which would take a LONG time to do.

And just like any attack and weaponskill, there is a randomness involved. Otherwise this game would be VERY boring ^^; There are some skills that do a set ammount of damage (eg. En-spells, spirits withinn), but like all magic spells, En-spells can be resisted and do half the damage. But something odd I have noticed is that they can also break the damage cap every now and then (in Boyahda tree on crabs I occasionally do 23 damage on enthunder instead of 18-19)

Either way, the formulae(sp?) to elemental damage looks like this (not my formula. I found this on a JP site somewhere a long time ago.);

Terminologies
=============
Elemental spell damage (ESD)
INT Difference Factor (IDF)
Spell Damage Factor (SDF)
Spell Damage Bonus (SDB)
Elemental Staff Bonus (ESB)
Spell Damage Constant (SDC)
Magic Attack Bonus (MAB)

Main Formulas
=============
ESD = [ (IDF * SDF) + SDC ] * MAB

IDF = (Caster INT - Enemy INT)

SDF = SDB * ESB


INT Difference Factor (IDF) Explained
=====================================

It is possible that enemy INT is higher than caster INT, in that case the resultant value will be negative from the subtraction.

If the difference between enemy and caster INT exceeds Preliminary Threshold Value (PTV), then the damage growth rate will decreate. (i.e. the following formula will be used for IDF instead)

IDF = [ (Caster INT - Enemy INT) + PTV ] / 2

For I series spells, here are their PTV values:
Spell PTV
===============
Earth I 21
Water I 30
Air I 41
Fire I 51
Blizz I 62
Thunder I 79

3. If the INT difference exceeds the Ultimate Threshold Value (UTV), then the IDF value will be capped and the following formula applies:

IDF = (UTV + PTV) / 2

For I series spells, here are their UTV values: (-- indicates not tested yet)
Spell UTV
===============
Earth I 53
Water I --
Air I --
Fire I --
Blizz I --
Thunder I --

Spell Damage Factor (SDF) Explained
===================================

SDF = SDB * ESB

ESB = 1.0 for no elemental staffs equipped (or not for the right spell)
1.1 for Normal Quality elemental staffs (matches with spell)
1.15 for High Quality elemental staffs (matches with spell)

Spell SDB
===============
I Series 1.0
II Series 1.0
III Series 1.5
III(ga) 1.5
IV Series 2.0
Ancient 2.0

Magic Attack Bonus (MAB) Explained
==================================

MAB Table
=========
Level Job MAB
10 BLM 1.2
30 BLM 1.24
50 BLM 1.28
70 BLM 1.32
20 RDM 1.2
40 RDM 1.24

Moldavite Earring (+0.05 to MAB)
Zenith Glove (+0.05 to MAB)

Spell Damage Constant (SDC) Explained
=====================================

Spell Earth Water Wind Fire Blizz Thunder
I 5 11 20 30 41 55
II 78 90 108 128 150 173
III 210 236 265 295 320 345
IV 381 410 440 472 506 541
III(ga) -- -- -- -- 642 697
Ancient 577 630 552 657 526 603


Elemental Day Effect on Damage
==============================

If day is the same as spell element:
ESD = ESD * 1.1 (i.e. Fire Day casting Fire Spell)

If day is the opposite of spell element:
ESD = ESD * 0.9 (i.e. Fire Day casting Blizz Spell)


How to verify this formula
==========================

Go to just outside of bastok, use burn to lower those newbie bees so their INT becomes 1.

Without equipping any weapons, Level 75 BLM with INT 129, wearing Moldavite Earring, casting Thunder IV.

Since,

ESD = [ (IDF * SDF) + SDC ] * MAB

IDF = (Enemy INT - Caster INT)

SDF = SDB * ESB

Therefore,

IDF = 129 - 1 = 128

SDF = 2 * 1 = 2.0

ESD = [ (128 * 2) + 541 ] * 1.37 = 1091.89 (drop decimals) = 1091

I tried it myself and it is correct in about 95% of the cases. This leads me to believe that enfeebling magic works roughly the same way, and one of my goals is to figure out HOW. Or atleast find a formula to the effectivness of enfeebles.

So the factors that should affect enfeebles (not considering weather, day of the week, moonphase etc.) should be;

MND (on Mind based enfeebles)
INT (on INT based enfeebles)
Enfeebling Skill
Magic Accuracy
Enemy MND
Enemy INT
Elemental staffs
Enemy natural resistance
Random factor

And that's just for the resistance rate (resist/not resisted). Which really makes it a lot more advanced than one might think. To see if the enemy is paralyzed or not, the game would have to go through most of those again every time a monster attacks. And in order to see if it'll wear off, it have to go through yet ANOTHER formula to see if it'll wear off or stick.

 

[Damita]

Interesting thread here.

If anybody ever figures out what the magic formula for enfeebing is I'd be shocked... I tried tests similar to Rones and found nothing conclusive.

I think Uzor may be right in the sense that there may be a set challenge period in which the mob can break free of an enfeeb's effect and it's duration.

Best example of that are the gods. When I land Para on Seiryu, sometimes it will land without paralyzing him an entire fight.
Other times, it will paralyze him a number of times...

Sometimes it lasts for a few seconds... Sometimes much longer.
I know I'm using the same gear when I cast...

Anyway... As far as race discussion it's really pointless. Let's say all the races can XP with gear shifts and some can do it easier than others, but at end game, only certain races can stick enfeebs on gods and HNMs.

Does that make one or the other the best fit? I don't think so, but hey... Everybody is entitled to there thoughts.

I'll go chase Kirin's ass now.

 

[Damita]

Crap... What's this doing in the Flameboard... Now I can't fix my typos.

 

[Uzor]

and Rones tests actually, if anything, proves my theory to be right. In that it don't have a set time and have a chance to wear off on each in-game tick.

And in order to make a GOOD test you need to fight a mob with identicall stats to you, like a RDM your level and race with the same equipment in Ballista...

Which reminds me, Damita, wanna fight? >.>

 

[Rones]

If you would put that up as proof on any site people would flame you like hell, because quite frankly, about 10 tests are WAY too little.

Was 28 tests, not 10. Each test took me an average of 2 mins due to travel time, time to find mob, time to kill it after test, regain mp occasionaly. So to do 1,000 tests would be 2,000 mins which is 33.3hours of testing, and this is ignores time waiting for identical conditions again. I find it hard to believe someone could flame me for not putting forth that much effort and I even mentioned in my conclusion that too small of test case could be a source of error.

I have seen that thread on ffxionline.com for magic dmg formulae before and even posted links to it. If the duration formulea did work like that however, I would have seen much more consistent results with the duration and the mob's would have been getting paralyzed extremely often (especiallly the wasp since it is so low), yet that wasn't the case as I observed. I didn't record how often paralyze kicked in, but there were times it went off very often, and others it wouldn't fire once for a minute straight.

I agree there is randomness in it, as there should be. However, even with elemental nukes you see consistency of full dmg, 1/2, and 1/10 dmg without even keeping records. My results were so random and inconsistent that it would disagree with a set formulea like you find with blm nukes. I increased my mnd by 63% and got not visible change. Try doing that with int on nukes and tell me you can't see something. :?

And in order to make a GOOD test you need to fight a mob with identicall stats to you, like a RDM your level and race with the same equipment in Ballista...

Except not all enfeebles work the exact same against players as they do in ballista, especially resists. Also, you would be unable to find the maximum without testing on lower mobs like was my attempt with the wasp.

As for your varying enspell dmg, check here. Specifically reading Applepie's posts.

 

[Uzor]

Except not all enfeebles work the exact same against players as they do in ballista, especially resists. Also, you would be unable to find the maximum without testing on lower mobs like was my attempt with the wasp.

Yeah, I thought of this after I posted. Especially sleep is gimped in Dynamis. I don't know if slow and paralyze is though, but it's highly likely that it is.

 

[Pascal]

This means absolutely nothing, but just something I noticed. The average is higher with no extra MND than with it.

Bee with 0 MND has an average of 84.71429
Bee with 44 MND has an average of 61.14286

Crawler with 0 MND has an average of 54.57143
Crawler with 44 MND has an average of 54.42857

 

[Rones]

Yeah, I noticed that too, but I really want to mark up that difference for too small of sample size. Only conclusion I really trust from my data is there is little to no noticiable addtional duration for too weak mobs with additonal +mnd. Some data samples on ep and up would be interesting for comparison.

 

[Pascal]

Yeah, I noticed that too, but I really want to mark up that difference for too small of sample size. Only conclusion I really trust from my data is there is little to no noticiable addtional duration for too weak mobs with additonal +mnd. Some data samples on ep and up would be interesting for comparison.

I’ve got nothing going on so I’m going to try with my level 7 WHM and my pitiful +4 MND, see what I get.