An ultimatum...

N

Nasya

Limit Breaker
Adventurer
Joined
Oct 8, 2004
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442
Linkshell
Kaizen
This post primarily concerns others who are currently active in end game, but I think it is best for the whole qcdn community to hear at least this bit. Before I continue though, and I do believe other LS leaders will agree that this would be a useful thing to have… I would like to request that Pupusa make a board for End Game shell leaders to meet and discuss different matters. Usually our conversations end up happening on the flame board, and very little that can be called productive ever comes from there.

Onto the main body of this post...

Kaizen (Ascension) is preparing to respond to pressure from what is commonly called the Japanese Alliance. As has been stated many times by other shells involved in camping the 3 land abjuration NM, when you get a HQ pop, you often get MPKed. Despite many efforts on my part, many of which I was criticized here for, a peaceful solution has not been reached.

Often it seemed that for a while my shell could easily co-exist with this group after negotiation attempts, but usually within a month those efforts and promises are forgotten. It is my opinion that nothing comes good from violence, especially in this game… However, it also seems that nothing comes good from trying to talk things out as civilized people either.

As a shell, we feel that it is not wrong to ‘steal’ back what was stolen from us. At this point this is isolated only to that specific camp, it does not move beyond that for us. The means by which I would allow my guys to try and reclaim our stolen claims were limited at best. Now, with blockaid it is impossible (most common method of theft from us was made with cure spam, so I authorized my guys to do the same to those who had just done it to us).

I guess the introduction is over now, basically this is an announcement that at this point in time I have authorized my LS to MPK an LS that MPKs them to retrieve the stolen NM. Again, it is something that I am forcing to be contained; it will be on a camp to camp basis. If we get MPKed, we will turn around and do the same, to the group that did it to us. I am making this announcement so that other shells who are involved in these camps will understand what is going on, and not have to worry about being a target.

Hopefully it will never actually come to this; we are also trying to develop ways to simply make MPK attempts unsuccessful. Our shell has a pretty well established history with very little that can be held against us, and this is a fact that I am very proud of. I don’t want that to change, this is one of the last things I ever wanted to even imagine preparing to do.

Because of the hurricane I am unable to discuss anything with any of the JP leaders, but I did give Kisada a message to try and relay to Serise who is the leader of the current sub faction we are having trouble with. The message basically said “If you MPK us, we will do the same to you. If you leave us alone, you will be left alone. Please, stop acting like a child… peace is far more valuable.” This is our ultimatum.

Kiraya, as a member of JeanDarke, I would appreciate it if you tried to help mediate this situation. This is our response plan and any changes to it will be more severe, but it will be Serise’s or Ailia’s or Lucifar’s or Efrost’s or Cashell’s hand that pushes us to follow through. Any other members of the QCDN community who are also members of these shells, please do anything you can to make it clear that we are serious; that their bull-shit actions and their bull-shit reasons have to stop, because it’s about to bite them in the ass.

Returning to the idea of a forum for End Game shells... Currently the Linkshells I would like to ask to be given access to this board are OH, NH, Valkries, BOL, ESP and Kaizen. Proph, Maseki, Vil, WYS and Dresdan, if you are interested please PM Pupusa with the names of officers you would like to be involved in a round table of sorts. I really do think this would be benificial for all of us. More on this topic on the boards if you are willing to participate and Pup is willing to set this up. For other end game shells, if you feel you've been left out, PM me please, and i will discuss with the other leaders of the 6 generally recognized end game shells about including you in our efforts there to lessen conflict.

Final Note: The purpose of this post is productive conversation, please try to keep it as that.
 
Thats a good start.Maybe now end game would be more fun when people work for each other instead of them selves only ^^
 
I like this idea too :D And I asked Pupusa in one of my PMs to make a forum section for the main endgame LS after that OH and BoL thing to set up better times and such in sky. Guess I alone wasn't enough x.x Oh, and Nasya, if your LS is down in that area and fear MPK.. and this sorta alliance works out.. I have no problem with getting myself and any other people I can find to help stop any MPK attempt. That is.. sleep all the spiders, manticores, giant birds, etc, and kill them all off.
 
This is a great idea, I just wish it had be implemented earlier. I'll be willing to help out an LS alliance against MPK's.
 
I would recommend against this. Nothing would show them our true weight better than for our main shells to make it clear that we are above these offenders...that we won't stoop to their level. That would make a better ultimatum. They're not gods. They're adolescents. When push comes to shove, they think they deserve it more than you do because they were there first and that this is their game. This has only a fraction to do with race, although unfortunately let's be honest here--it's a small factor because this is the real world. This is more about timing though, and perceived threat.

To reply in kind will do nothing but hurt you. If they accidentally agro bark spiders every time, that's wood on the fire for the rule-enforcers to chew on. Escalation would be inevitable, and in the end I can all but guarantee you'll come out with nothing but a bitter taste in your mouths and spewing the same paranoid Na-whined jp-bias spiel that makes almost every other server reek. Quetza doesn't reek yet. Don't start this crap. You're better than they are.
 
What's so bad about starting an alliance where we aid each other against MPK though? O.o that'd be good atleast :D
 
Peregrine said:
I would recommend against this. Nothing would show them our true weight better than for our main shells to make it clear that we are above these offenders...that we won't stoop to their level. That would make a better ultimatum. They're not gods. They're adolescents. When push comes to shove, they think they deserve it more than you do because they were there first and that this is their game. This has only a fraction to do with race, although unfortunately let's be honest here--it's a small factor because this is the real world. This is more about timing though, and perceived threat.

To reply in kind will do nothing but hurt you. If they accidentally agro bark spiders every time, that's wood on the fire for the rule-enforcers to chew on. Escalation would be inevitable, and in the end I can all but guarantee you'll come out with nothing but a bitter taste in your mouths and spewing the same paranoid Na-whined jp-bias spiel that makes almost every other server reek. Quetza doesn't reek yet. Don't start this crap. You're better than they are.
Click to expand...

It's certainly not intended to be a excuse to start mpking people, or to further divide the JP and NA communities. Our LS is firmly committed to avoiding MPKing, Kill Stealing etc, etc.

The aim isn't to be proactive and hit them, it's to be reactive and to avoid being hit... But that's why the discussion has been posted... the get the opinions of the End Game Shells
 
Peregrine said:
I would recommend against this. Nothing would show them our true weight better than for our main shells to make it clear that we are above these offenders...that we won't stoop to their level. That would make a better ultimatum. They're not gods. They're adolescents. When push comes to shove, they think they deserve it more than you do because they were there first and that this is their game. This has only a fraction to do with race, although unfortunately let's be honest here--it's a small factor because this is the real world. This is more about timing though, and perceived threat.

To reply in kind will do nothing but hurt you. If they accidentally agro bark spiders every time, that's wood on the fire for the rule-enforcers to chew on. Escalation would be inevitable, and in the end I can all but guarantee you'll come out with nothing but a bitter taste in your mouths and spewing the same paranoid Na-whined jp-bias spiel that makes almost every other server reek. Quetza doesn't reek yet. Don't start this crap. You're better than they are.
Click to expand...
Yeah, maybe you haven't noticed and you must not have read half of Nasya's post, but they tried being nice. They tried diplomacy, it didn't work, they didn't MPK back, it didn't work. The only option is to stupe to their level, since being nice or talking won't work. They(The JP shells) are acting like the gil sellers, do whatever they want to get what they want.

Our "true weight" is that we are just as good as they are, and that we are just as deserving of those items as they are. That doesn't mean we have to take it on the chin every time they feel like doing something illegal for their own gains. We have to show them that we won't just cowtow to them because they've had the game longer than us, and this is the only option left.

You also seem to have failed to notice, that the whole point of the ultimatum was reactionary. If you MPK them, you get MPK'd back, that simple. If we launched a mass MPK attempt at them, then all these problems you "forsee" might actually happen, but not much will result from using the same methods they use. From Nasya's post, it's obvious that force was the last method they wanted to resort to, but it's the only recourse left.

What's more, the creation of the endgame leader's section will only further show them how serious we are about this, along with hopefully solving some of the problems between the shells. This discourse can only help the endgame, but you seem to have only focused on a single sentance as usual, and ignored the rest of the context.
 
I dunno.. did coming in more than a single alliance work? If you come with enough to control the HNM and control the MPK attempt.. was that done? That's an option I think should be tried first. Or even get the other end-game shells to help out. Hell.. I think the only reason that OH wasn't MPKed when they get Nidhogg was because NotoriusHunters and Kaizen were there in full force and I think JP believed we'd help them against it so that MPK would be futile.. and then I heard that Nidhogg popped not too long ago I believe and OH got it again but were MPKed. Now I know NH wasn't there but not sure about Kaizen.. I have a feeling they weren't there too due to the times. Anyways... I will agree that if that method, overwhelming numbers, doesn't work, then it is time to truly MPK if they MPK first.
 
You can act like kids if you want. It'll be fun to see the hornets this stirrs up if you go low. If they MPK you when you do nothing back, what are they going to do when you MPK them? Suddenly say, "hay guyz mebe we r wrong here" in poorly-written japanese?
 
Uh, i was going to wait for more responses to reply myself, but i think that i need to clairify something before this continues any further.

In general: The idea of a forum for leaders to discuss something doesn't mean that we will be allying with each other. That idea is more in response to recent conflicts with each other than it is with JP alliance conflicts. This isn't to say that something along the lines of what you are suggesting couldn't happen, but I, and i know a few other leaders for sure, don't want to become an NA response to the JP alliance. To discuss problems there, to discuss ways to prevent problems with each other. that is at least the initial purpose i hope that board will serve.

to Svina: I knew you were going to say that. Note that this isn't all out war though... not yet anyway :'(

To Pere: I know i don't know you very well, and i think it is safe to assume that the same goes for you in regards to me. Ask anyone on these boards who has been around for say... a year... or anyone who knows me in game. A year ago... i was saying the same thing as what you just posted. 8 months ago, i was saying the same thing... And i can honestly say now, that i am out of peaceful options.

I agree that they act like children, that they are not gods. Their reasons for doing this are BS, absolutely. And to sink to their level, it's the last thing i want to do. I agree that it is going to hurt us, this post was to try and make that damage as little as possible. by clearly stating the reason, and the target, and the trigger, at least those who read can understand that we haven't gone off the wall. As for the GMs having something to chew on, they have over a years worth of stuff to chew on, but they aren't biting.

It has gotten to the point where... camping is pointless if we don't make a response. The trigger for this was an MPK at the last Nidhogg pop, but that isn't the first time, not even the second... my LS is well into the double digits for MPKs at various NMs by this same group. If we show up at anything valuable, they kill us, end of story. And this isn't a personal vandetta, many of these people call me their friend. They just don't want us getting NMs they feel are theirs.

Please, if you want to hear stories, if you want more information on this feel free to PM me, i have plenty of them.

Ele: in response to your last post. They usually won't MPK until they have lost 2-3 nid claims. And the recent pop, it was our claim, and that is what spurred all this.

Night folks, i'll see what tomorrow brings.
 
Glad I could care less now :3 good luck with that though.
 
Ah... well then... their bonned :D
 
The difference between this and the Monroe doctrine is that someone will call you on this the second you state it. The anti-mpk alliance will become a mpk alliance in all of one round of escalation. An anti-mpk alliance that mpk's routinely...does that make sense?

Why don't you alliance to crush jp trains instead of jp's? They can't spam-cure you now to spike flail you. All they can do is throw tarantulas at you. If you can both claim, kill, and pop and link protect, then it's pretty clear that not only do you have weight...but you own the game.
 
Peregrine said:
The difference between this and the Monroe doctrine is that someone will call you on this the second you state it. The anti-mpk alliance will become a mpk alliance in all of one round of escalation. An anti-mpk alliance that mpk's routinely...does that make sense?

Why don't you alliance to crush jp trains instead of jp's? They can't spam-cure you now to spike flail you. All they can do is throw tarantulas at you. If you can both claim, kill, and pop and link protect, then it's pretty clear that not only do you have weight...but you own the game.
Click to expand...
I believe that was one of the posted ideas, try reading the whole thing.

Also, there is no similarity between this and the Monroe Doctrine. Kaizen is in no way acting as the protector of the other NA, and isn't telling the JP to stay out, so your example fails. This is simply saying that we're not going to bend over and take it anymore, that we might start responding in kind to MPK's.
 
I don't reply to the whole thing. I read the functional point, and what I read is the title that says "ultimatum" and 90 percent of the ensuing paragraphs that talk about mpk retaliation. I'm not missing much. One little sentence talked about mpk prevention. One. You want to call me out for nitpicking all but one sentence? I covered 30 sentences.
 
Nasya - Dresdan is away for about two weeks...omicrom is pretty much running the shell so if u wanna talk with ESP, hes ur guy. Im not really sure what this will accomplish though, i mean if we were camping fafnir and saw u guys getting mpked, we would obviously help, and LS's already try to stay away from CCing eachother in sky....for the most part. Guess it wouldnt be a bad idea to actually have a forum to discuss these issues with all the leaders, but atm our Ls doesn't support MPK so we might not see eye to eye on some things. Perhaps our views may change once we slow down with sky and start up hardcore king/wyrm hunting. :P
 
Don't mind Peregrine, everything puts him on the defensive, that includes civilized/casual discussion.
 
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