Apathy cheated when they killed PW?

[Linhjah]

Don't know how many of you may have seen this at BG, but I lol'd. Especially at the responses.

Basically, this guys is pissed off that Apathy (the linkshell that took PW down) logged hate as part of their strategy. He believes they should be suspended or banned for taking advantage of "in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play".

I have logged hate plenty of times. Like when I’m running up to do the Brother’s ENM and catch aggro, I log my hate. I had never even considered that anyone could see that as a form of cheating.

http://darkrenegadesmusings.blogspot.com/2009/02/so-square-enix-logging-hate-is-legal.html

So does anyone here feel like Apathy cheated? Because I don’t…

 

[Spalko]

its not a game exploit lol, they didnt try to dup the drops at least.

lets have SE code it so that we not allow to logout if we have hate lol

 

[Morwen]

Thats a crap excuse from someone whos just jealous or has something against the shell or people in it. Logging hate is perfectly legit.

 

[Spalko]

i wonder if he was one of the people who got banned, or know a close friend that got banned

 

[Bladewind]

Thats a crap excuse from someone whos just jealous or has something against the shell or people in it. Logging hate is perfectly legit.

If you read what he's written, you can see his point. They /logout, to avoid getting hit by a devastating move which is obviously not what SE had planned. However, I agree he's mostly jealous and should stfu.

 

[Tyrath]

Logging out is not an exploit. And considering SE showcased it on their homepage, I don't think they have a problem with it.

 

[Mirewen]

Used to do that on my BLM at Kirin... what's the beef?

 

[Lucki]

Used to do that on my BLM at Kirin... what's the beef?

It doesn't looks so much like beef, but rather copious amounts of granulated minerals embedded in what appears to be that individuals female reproductive canal.

 

[Airou]

I dont think this is cheating one bit. They didnt get PW stuck, they didnt duplicate, they didnt hack the game. SE made it so that when u log, you lose hate/aggro, so its a valid tactic. I dont see any emergency maintenance so i think its wrong to call them cheaters for it.

If what this guy is asking for were to happen, then everyone whos ever slept a mob to log hate or zone hate etc should all be in trouble too. To ask for them to be banned is stupid, at most if it isnt the way SE intended it to be killed, theyll make the proper adjustments.

 

[Bladewind]

Logging out is not an exploit. And considering SE showcased it on their homepage, I don't think they have a problem with it.

SE showcased it on there homepage in an attempt to undo some of the bad press they received after the 18 hour fight a couple of months back.

You can't compare this to Kirin's Astral Flow, because Kirin doesn't use it at a certain %, so it's impossible to log out to avoid the move unless you log for a long period of time. Kirins is also alot less powerful.

 

[Uzor]

Just read his blog. It is obvious he have no idea how they beat him. Just read this part;

So, apparently, what Apathy did then was:


-- One person, probably a Red Mage (almost certainly a PLD/RDM, probably), casts Area of Effect Damage over Time spells to gain massive emnity on Pandemonium Warden and all the avatars in play.


-- Said player then runs like Hell. Not a problem to this point -- this often happens in Dynamis.


-- Here's the problem: All other players then log out of the game, by pre-arranged agreement.


-- The player being chased by the mob of monsters dies, sacrificing himself to allow the party the needed time to log out. Logging out clears the list of all players in the fight with emnity to Pandemonium Warden. With no remaining players alive with emnity to Pandemonium Warden, the NM will go back to his spawn point and, essentially, stop. No further aggressive action will be taken until someone is aggressive to it. During this time, everyone else logs back in (the timeframe I heard was 2 minutes), and the sacrificial lamb is raised and healed.


Repeat as needed to avoid Astral Flow wiping the entire linkshell.

Which at least to me raises the question; since when is Diaga a "AoE DoT spell with massive enmity gain"? And since when do you have time to Diaga the avatars and start running before the have time to Astral Flow? He seem to have missunderstood diagaing the lamps and not the actual avatars... Still, since when does Diaga give massive hate?


Besides, logging hate doesn't actually clear your hate. You still have the same amount of hate when you login, so as soon as you touch the mob, your hate will be back to normal. Hate is stored on the mob itself, not on you, so you don't disappear from the mob's hate list until the mob actually go looking for you but can't find you. Which can be seen when, for example, you sleep a mob and log back in before the mob wakes up, at which point it will go looking for you. If you, however, log back in after the mob wakes up, the mob will have gone looking for you, and not found you, and thus scratched you from the hate list.

Which is why I always found it amusing back in the days when people used "BLM logging hate" as part of their strategy. The reason it partially worked is because your volatile enmity still decreases. It doesn't remove the hate though.

Either way, thew amount of idiocy in his bloglog is purely hillarious.

 

[Mirewen]

It doesn't looks so much like beef, but rather copious amounts of granulated minerals embedded in what appears to be that individuals female reproductive canal.

lol <3

 

[Tyrath]

SE showcased it on there homepage in an attempt to undo some of the bad press they received after the 18 hour fight a couple of months back.

You can't compare this to Kirin's Astral Flow, because Kirin doesn't use it at a certain %, so it's impossible to log out to avoid the move unless you log for a long period of time. Kirins is also alot less powerful.

Yeah, but they wouldn't showcase something if they were gonna go out and ban these people.

Also I don't think anyone compared it to kirin's astral flow. Mirewen probably meant that she used to log hate on kirin.

 

[Bladewind]

Yeah, but they wouldn't showcase something if they were gonna go out and ban these people.

No but i think they are less likely to fix the "glitch" that was used to kill it, because they wanted to be able to throw it in everyones face that there shiny boss was killable after all. If it hadn't been for the 18 hour fight, I think they would have put more effort in making logging out impossible during the fight because that's obviously not the way SE planned it.

Also I don't think anyone compared it to kirin's astral flow. Mirewen probably meant that she used to log hate on kirin.

Oh, sorry then i misunderstood. /points at Uzors post though lol.

 

[Bajaratt]

Besides, logging hate doesn't actually clear your hate. You still have the same amount of hate when you login, so as soon as you touch the mob, your hate will be back to normal. Hate is stored on the mob itself, not on you, so you don't disappear from the mob's hate list until the mob actually go looking for you but can't find you. Which can be seen when, for example, you sleep a mob and log back in before the mob wakes up, at which point it will go looking for you. If you, however, log back in after the mob wakes up, the mob will have gone looking for you, and not found you, and thus scratched you from the hate list.

That's exactly what's happening with their strategy, if that's really what they're doing. PW kills the sacrificial lamb, looks around, sees none of the people that are on his hate list, clears his hate list and then goes back to his spawn point. Unless there's some extra step which would prevent PW from looking for the next person on the hate list, it would be clearing the hate table.

 

[Javir]

Besides, logging hate doesn't actually clear your hate. You still have the same amount of hate when you login, so as soon as you touch the mob, your hate will be back to normal. Hate is stored on the mob itself, not on you, so you don't disappear from the mob's hate list until the mob actually go looking for you but can't find you. Which can be seen when, for example, you sleep a mob and log back in before the mob wakes up, at which point it will go looking for you. If you, however, log back in after the mob wakes up, the mob will have gone looking for you, and not found you, and thus scratched you from the hate list.

Which is why I always found it amusing back in the days when people used "BLM logging hate" as part of their strategy. The reason it partially worked is because your volatile enmity still decreases. It doesn't remove the hate though.

Either way, thew amount of idiocy in his bloglog is purely hillarious.

In examples you gave, you're right about the hate not resetting. But part of the blog you quoted explains that the intention is to wait for it to scratch everyone off the list. He said that they let PW start wondering back to its spawn point. This means that it already removed them all from the hate list.

A dangerous tactic seeing as this would cause the mob to go Yellow and potentially get HP back. Only other way I could see it happening is as soon as it gets ready to wonder back, have someone who stayed outside the alliance try to DOT/kite it until the alliance was logged back in and reformed.


I also question this "high enmity AOE DOT".. closest thing might be a SCH with AOE bio <.<;; even then... each mob has separate hate for a single bio, it only compounds when you use AOE buffs/cures on people with hate.


(edit: apparantly Baja posted right as I hit reply XD oh well, leaving it up)

 

[Mirewen]

Mirewen probably meant that she used to log hate on kirin.

This.

You don’t lose hate unless you log out completely. You keep the hate if you only partially log. Unless they changed it in the past year or so

 

[Khajit]

emnity decays over time. logging out "completely" doesn't actually do anything other than giving you more time for the hate to decay to a low level and for the others in your alliance to end up with higher hate values than you since while you aren't doing anything they're DDing,nuking, or tanking for more hate.

 

[Bajaratt]

emnity decays over time. logging out "completely" doesn't actually do anything other than giving you more time for the hate to decay to a low level and for the others in your alliance to end up with higher hate values than you since while you aren't doing anything they're DDing,nuking, or tanking for more hate.

For the volatile enmity, this is true, logging only increases the amount of time for your enmity to decrease. But for the cumulative enmity, logging is a full wipe, provided that the monster tries to find you during that time you're logged off.

 

[Khajit]

true but i was merely trying to point out to mirewen that there is no real practical difference between "partial" loggin and completely" logging.
I'm assuming everyone already knew hate got wiped only when the monster is actually looking for you.