Are you fucking kidding me

[Dejavu]

My state so let me highlight my favorite parts

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/2009/09/19/20090919maceachern0920.html

Tucson schools create race-based system of discipline

The board is calling for a two-tiered form of student discipline. One for Black and Hispanic students; one for everyone else.

With the goal of creating a "restorative school culture and climate" that conveys a "sense of belonging to all students," the board is insisting that its schools reduce its suspensions and/or expulsions of minority students to the point that the data reflect "no ethnic/racial disparities."

From the section of the 52-page plan titled "Restorative School Culture and Climate," subhead, "Discipline":

"School data that show disparities in suspension/expulsion rates will be examined in detail for root causes. Special attention will be dedicated to data regarding African-American and Hispanic students."

The board approved creating an "Equity Team" that will oversee the plan to ensure "a commitment to social justice for all students."

The happy-face edu-speak notwithstanding, what the Tucson Unified School District board of governors has approved this summer is a race-based system of discipline.

Offenses by students will be judged, and penalties meted out, depending on the student's hue.

Certainly, from the point of view of a public-school administrator, such a policy is beyond insane.

TUSD principals and disciplinarians (assuming such creatures still exist) are being asked to set two standards of behavior for their students.

Some behavior will be met with strict penalties; some will not. It all depends on the color of the student's skin.

 

[Halifirien]

That wasn't my reading of the policy at all. It's not creating a special system for minority students: "School data that show disparities in suspension/expulsion rates will be examined in detail for root causes."

In other words, if the minority kids are getting tossed out at higher rates, find out what the problem is. It's not saying they're automatically guilt-free little darlings who would never dream of being disruptive or that they should necessarily be treated with kid gloves while the white students fend for themselves.

Then again, from what I've read there were a lot of people complaining that the TUSD's ethnic studies program was turning out angry "Hispanic revolutionaries." My Google search turned up a whole hell of a lot of racial resentment from conservatives on this issue, and the oft-cited editorial you posted seems to be dripping with it.

I'd prefer to see some actual reporting on how it's put into practice and not just an opinion piece that may not be reflecting actual reality. The guy could be completely full of shit.

 

[Morcheeba]

That wasn't my reading of the policy at all. It's not creating a special system for minority students: "School data that show disparities in suspension/expulsion rates will be examined in detail for root causes."

In other words, if the minority kids are getting tossed out at higher rates, find out what the problem is.

That's pretty much what I got from it as well.

I also don't think it's a bad idea. Unfortunately not all education providers and the admin that work on school boards belong in their position. So reviewing cases to see if there is already 'special attention' being given to students based on race is what I believe their trying to nail.

Myself and a girlfriend with my mothers help got my grade 7 teacher to resign from his position because he was sexist. Working in a public school and admittedly did not like young girls. He would make inappropraite comments about our strength, his wife etc with degrading comments. My mother had us write down each comment when it was made and date it, in grade 7!! Both my girlfriend and I did this and brought it to my mother, she's not some evil crazed feminist bitch either FYI. But when the man was approached in front of her and the principal he admitted he did not like teaching young girls.

Bubye!

All that means, and is just to outline that there will be people in the education system that have no right in their positions. So I believe they're trying to weed them out while also trying to see if there is an underlining cause if legit punishment in high volumes is being handed out.

 

[Dejavu]

But Hali you fail to address the issue with this program...

If there are disparaties look at the people who are enforcing the rules (ie review the principles and admin) and figure out if there are biases involved. You dont make a second set of rules for minorities... that to me is the same as

If there are disparaties and they are due to a racist agenda as the people making these new rules are seeming to believe then you should get anyone holding those views fired.

 

[Halifirien]

But Hali you fail to address the issue with this program...

No, I didn't fail to address it. Reading that snippit of policy, nowhere does it say it creates a second set of rules for minorities; that seems to be coming entirely from the author of the editorial you quoted. It sounds more like racial paranoia on his part than anything solid so far. You're going to have to provide more support for your outrage than this one guy's opinion of what it means.

Looking for the "root causes" may very well be a simple matter of reviewing the principals and administrators. It may be something else entirely. Either way, the policy is simply putting in writing that "We'll check it out." That seems like one of the most non-threatening policies I can imagine. Then again, I don't have the hardon this guy has for Hispanic studies.

Update: Reading the 52-page policy manual. So far it really sounds like the guy is full of shit.

 

[Halifirien]

The Equity Team will ensure that disciplinary policies focus on improving students’ future behavior, rather than inflicting punishment, and that they represent a commitment to social justice for all students.

...

Students who are suspended lose learning time. The goal is to shift from a culture of punishment to one of discipline that focuses on teaching students how to behave responsibly when confronted with conflicts and to learn appropriate problem-solving strategies that will help them become responsible and caring adults.

...

In-house suspension programs for too long have been places where students were sent to be ostracized in a sterile environment. There has been little or no emphasis on character building and restorative practices that teach students about using appropriate behavioral strategies. The goal of the in-house suspension program should be to reintegrate students into the general learning environment as soon as possible.

MONSTERS!

 

[Thelona]

MONSTERS!

great tatic halif, choose 3 parts of the article that sound completely harmless and pretend thats all thats in the article. then try and completely write off the other argument by sarcastically calling them monsters.

With the goal of creating a "restorative school culture and climate" that conveys a "sense of belonging to all students," the board is insisting that its schools reduce its suspensions and/or expulsions of minority students to the point that the data reflect "no ethnic/racial disparities."

how anyone can completely ignore that type of language and pretend that theres absolutely nothing fishy going on here except some data collecting is beyond me. but really it shouldn't surprise me how a liberal can dance threw hoops and do mental backflips to completely ignore whole parts of a story. you see it every day on msnbc and now in the white house.

 

[Halifirien]

great tatic halif, choose 3 parts of the article that sound completely harmless and pretend thats all thats in the article. then try and completely write off the other argument by sarcastically calling them monsters.

I didn't pretend that was the entire article. I thought the ellipses made it clear I was bounding around different parts of it. But I still don't see how trying to fix discipline problems and reducing suspensions is supposed to be a bad thing. Nowhere do I see anything about how they're going to punish white kids more harshly and let the minority students get away with murder. It's just race-baiting fearmongering, and sarcasm is a fine response to it. It's an automatic reflex to QCDN's Liberal Outrage of the Week.

 

[Thelona]

I didn't pretend that was the entire article. I thought the ellipses made it clear I was bounding around different parts of it. But I still don't see how trying to fix discipline problems and reducing suspensions is supposed to be a bad thing. Nowhere do I see anything about how they're going to punish white kids more harshly and let the minority students get away with murder. It's just race-baiting fearmongering, and sarcasm is a fine response to it. It's an automatic reflex to QCDN's Liberal Outrage of the Week.

really? you don't see anything wrong with altering student discipline with the goal of having "no ethnic/racial disparities."? sure having a racial quota on suspensions sounds like a fantastic idea.

also you try and say your taking in the whole article yet go right back to acting like theres nothing in the article but "fixing discipline problems by reducing suspensions"

"fixing discipline by reducing suspensions" sounds like a pretty good idea. but balancing that around "ethnic or racial disparities" sounds beyond fucking retarded

 

[Halifirien]

I disagree with your perception of how the goal is to be achieved.

Why is it automatically assumed that a racial quota on suspensions is the method? Is it impossible to believe the school district may decide to work more closely with parents so their little darlings are less of a discipline problem than before? That they might use mentoring and other methods? Hell, maybe it's as simple as making sure the kids are getting enough food so they stop acting out.

Sorry, but it sounds like the guy DejaVu quoted is grasping at straws.

 

[Thelona]

Why is it automatically assumed that a racial quota on suspensions is the method?

ummmm maybe the languange like

"no ethnic/racial disparities."

and

"School data that show disparities in suspension/expulsion rates will be examined in detail for root causes. Special attention will be dedicated to data regarding African-American and Hispanic students."

and

"Equity Team"

and

The board is calling for a two-tiered form of student discipline. One for Black and Hispanic students; one for everyone else.

what the fuck else is any of that supposed to mean?

 

[Zoolander]

I love the idea of reforming discipline methods. The whole notion of sending kids out of class into a non-learning environment for misbehaving is so fucking ass-backwards and counter-productive.

Of course it is also bat shit insane to think that it is acceptable to make a different set of rules for different races. They are blinded by color, I mean my god do people really think a persons skin color affects what kind of person they are? Sure you can make a statistic that says it does, but just because a stat shows a relationship between two things does not mean they are actually connected in reality. This is why I always fucking hated statistics, its just a way to support lies and misinformation. I know if I were a black person I would be pretty offended by the notion that we should be cutting black people more breaks because they are...black.

 

[Keryan]

At my son's school they do in school suspension. The child has all their work waiting for them in the office. They stay there all day long. My son was given in school suspenion at the age of 7 because a little black girl did not like him and lied. It took the sheriffs and the Assistant superintdent doing an investigation for it to come out the girl lied. She lied and my son was punished because she was black and he was not. The principal fanned the whole thing making it so much worse then tried to deny it. Thank god I was smart enough to bring in the police report.

After a few weeks of this girl lying and saying how scared she was had them trying to move my kid out of his class. His teacher was against it. Mind you the girl was known to be an attention drama queen. Funny was she was seen following him around at Jump rope for heart. He was trying to get away from her and she was following him TRYING to get him into more trouble. Yet because her mom played the race card then demanded HE be moved, my son was hammered and abused so badily he did not want to go to school anymore. After a huge meeting I got them to keep him in his class and to place a full time aide to watch both kids. Amazingly every time I popped in that girl would sit next to my son and I. Mind you she was not supposed to be near him. With the aide there the whole class benifited. My warm fuzzy thought is knowing the principal had to pay this woman out of her own pocket. As you can see, basing things on race can lead to a simple thing getting blown up.

Making a two tier system is wrong. If you break the rule, there is a set punishment no matter the race. If there is a high % of minorities getting suspended or expelled, you look at why they are doing it. I can tell you right now 90% of the reason is THEY DON'T CARE. How do I know this....the hispanic kids where I live are GIVEN everything from the schools....and they say to me why should I? I can go on welfare. Their parents in many cases won't even fill out forms or go to meetings. My neighbor was from honduras and NEVER went to the meetings even though she knew of them. All her forms were in spanish. Mind you She was only allowed a 6th grade education.

Requiring the school to solve these makes the government more responsible for every choice made. Kinda goes against the US constitution where we are supposed to have freedom to choose.
Children should learn to be responsible for their actions. Yes make it so they do not lose time learning, but do not base it on race.

 

[Halifirien]

If there is a high % of minorities getting suspended or expelled, you look at why they are doing it.

Which is exactly what the policy said it would do. If the percentages seem too high, find out what the problem is and solve it. You're taking the school's side. I applaud you. :crazy:

 

[Celvantes]

"Equity Team" reminds me of this:

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"

I would be outrageously offended if I were one of the minorities affected by this. Are they trying to say that minorities aren't good enough to live by the rules of the majority?

 

[Keryan]

Which is exactly what the policy said it would do. If the percentages seem too high, find out what the problem is and solve it. You're taking the school's side. I applaud you. :crazy:

Actually no. My point is it goes beyond what the schools are made to do. Where I live there is ONE trained person who has to cover the whole county when it comes to testing problem children. One person for a fairly large number of schools. You would have the guidance councilor do this maybe? The one at my son's school does not even have the time to make a problem solving session with my son. Many of the people who SHOULD be doing it are over worked doing other school projects.

It is one thing to say oh there is a problem, and another to enable people to do something about it. They stated in that rticle that it would be based on race. It sounded more like they would make it a 1:1 ratio based on race for suspension/expulsion. If you live in an area with a high minority population you probably will have a higher ratio of minorities being suspended. In many cases it is people who feel things should be given to them because of how their race was abused by the evil white man or they figure who cares they always have welfare. Mind you blacks were not the only race who was slaves..../shocked White people were suppressed too. Too bad people seem to slept through that portion of history.

If they really want to address the issue, they would place in each scool a team to deal with it. No not people already at the school, but another group. Principals do play favorites and ass cover. Make them accountable at state level. Odds are no school that really needs this will beable to fund the program if it was implemented correctly. Too much Politically correctness.

 

[Morcheeba]

If they were serious about this it would be more efficient to establish a trained auditing team if you will that will visit each school for designated periods of time to evaluate the admin and education providers, audit past occurrences and come to a consensus based on their findings.

I still think this is a good idea.

Not so much rules, but digging into past situations and trends.

 

[Raesvelg]

The article, for me, raises a few questions.

First, is this disparity of punishment a matter of expulsions/suspensions per student of a given racial identity? Or is it a matter of disparity of severity of punishment between different racial groups?

Let's be honest, there's a difference there. If it's the first... then we've got a situation that may wind up making everyone involved unhappy. Mostly because in the first situation, it's entirely possible that the reason that more minority students are being expelled or suspended is because there is a higher percentage of them breaking school rules. If they want to examine the root cause of that (it's not hard to figure out, but they probably won't come up with a true answer regardless), then I suppose they can.

Now, a disparity in the severity of punishment, that is something that could be easily argued as a matter that requires remedy. Typically, in my experience, it's less a matter of outright racism, and more a matter of student attitude, at least at the middle/high school level. Still, something could probably be done in that instance.

In any case, any commission charged to examine the issue is going to have to accept the possibility that the situation exists for a valid reason, and that forcibly altering the rates in the name of improving percentages is, itself, inherently racist.

 

[Keryan]

normally there is a tiered step process to punishment. If they get 10 suspensions it = expulsion in hawaii. In MD they get verbal > written> inschool suspension > suspension > expulsion. Takes severity and many suspesions i think to be removed from teh school. All I can think of is minorities get more suspensions/expulsions.

 

[Hexx]

While I dont agree with creating a separate set of rules for minorities vs whites, after reading what theyre trying to implement, I don't see the bad in this really. Being Mexican, I can aknowledge first hand that people of my race tend to get in trouble a little more often than they should, especially 1st or 2nd generation Mexicans that come to this country. Problem with a lot of Hispanic kids is their parents tend to coddle them a little too much nowadays, so they seem to expect handouts left and right.

Perfect example, my best friends wife is a 4th grade teacher. She started her first year teaching, and was reprimanded by the principal because 60% of her students failed. When the Principal asked why they failed if they did all their work. My friends wife (ill call her Addie) showed her the homework, and compared it to their in-class test results. Some of the parents of these kids were doing the homework for them! They would get good grades on their homework, but fail miserably on the tests! In class these kids would act like spoiled brats expecting to get away with everything, and yet when they were punished (via detention etc.) instead of getting mad at their kids, the parents would come bitch out the teacher!

From what I read, it seems to me they want to curtail the excessive dropout rate and disciplinary action that is showing up in their records. I mean hell, if the roles were reveresed, I'm sure they would still be doing the same thing. That whole report sounds more biased than anything really.

For once I agree with Hal here.