Atheism

[Uzor]

If we're all alone on this planet, then why does anything mean anything? If there's no consequence or reward for your actions then no, I don't think any of this(life) is relevant. If the world was destroyed, or hell even if one person died what would it matter? It wouldn't if we're the only ones here, in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't make a bit of difference what we do.

If we're all alone on this planet? That's the thing. We're not alone. There's billions of other people, and more animals then anyone can possibly ever count. That's far from alone. Nothing means anything if you don't do anything that you think matters. If you think over what you want to achieve in life, then achieving that is reward enough.

I think everyone wants to have a family. A wife/husband, and quite a lot of those want to have kids of their own. Achieving that and stickign with it is reward enough, don't you think? Having someone they love, and someone that loves them in return is uite meaningfull. If you find your own meaning in life, then straving to accomplish that. Accomplishing it and feeling the happiness you get out of it is truely rewarding, is it not?

Having your own goals and motivations, living to achieve those, is meaning enough to stay alive and fight for it. And finally accomplishing it is reward enough.

No, a single person dieing doesn't neccesarily mean a lot. But that's life. The most dangerous thing about life is that you can die. That's just the way it is. Almost no one want to die, and that's why religion exist. To give them hope that there's something better. But as I said before, I'd rather devote my life to my own meaning and motives then live my life hoping worrying about doing everything right in order to get in to heaven. Like I said, finding out on your death bed that nothing of that was real, is far more depressing then lookin back at your life and be proud of what you accomplished. Life is a gamble, it always have been. All the choices you make will affect how the rest of your life will play out. There's noway to go back and change that. In the same way, death is a gamble too. Will you play your life assuming that there's something better after life, or will you play your life assuming this is the only life you'll have?

 

[Fellina]

I'm a deist. I usually don't talk about it much because I get flak from both sides; Atheists think I'm full of it because I believe in God, and the bible-thumpers get huffy that I don't believe in their religion. Usually when I'm asked I just say I'm Catholic, since I go to catholic mass and all. I don't believe in a lot of the "quirks" of catholicism, but it's a big part of our family traditions, and I wanted to impart those traditions onto my kids. Whether they believe or not will be up to them once they're old enough.

I think there's a lot of people out there who are deists but just haven't heard that handy term to apply to their faith. My husband was that way. We also get confused for agnostics a lot, the primary difference being that deists feel that evidence points towards the existance of something that people would call "God" while agnostics think the jury is still out.

Fun fact: many of America's founding fathers were either deist or influenced by deist philosophy, including James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" is an elementary deist tenet. So when the bible-thumpers talk about how we're a Christian nation because the founding fathers were all Christian I always giggle.

More info here: http://www.moderndeism.com/index.html

 

[Halifirien]

So when the bible-thumpers talk about how we're a Christian nation because the founding fathers were all Christian I always giggle.

Yeah, that's always been pretty amusing to me. I'm atheist, but my religious impulses (apart from a brief period in high school when I dived head-first into the waters and embraced Christianity before coming back to my senses) have always been heavily skewed toward Deism.

 

[Excalibur]

Well I don't think there's anyway to know until we die what lies ahead, I think it all boils down to faith. But hypothetically, if I find out on my death bed that there is no God and everything I believe is false, I'll still be happy with the way I lived my life, I won't have any regrets. I'll still have lead as good of a life that I can. If anything, my religious beliefs help me to lead a better life, and I'd be grateful for that on my death bed.

 

[Uzor]

Well I don't think there's anyway to know until we die what lies ahead, I think it all boils down to faith. But hypothetically, if I find out on my death bed that there is no God and everything I believe is false, I'll still be happy with the way I lived my life, I won't have any regrets. I'll still have lead as good of a life that I can. If anything, my religious beliefs help me to lead a better life, and I'd be grateful for that on my death bed.

If you're happy about the life you lived, then your life had meaning and relevance. Thus your whole argument is void I

 

[Bajaratt]

So why not go with the option that gives me a reward when I die as opposed to my entire life meaning nothing?

Because if you are right, the only meaning your life would have is that it's only a test, and a lot of people don't like that concept. Also, there would be more changes than just believing in god; unless you just call yourself a christian(or whatever) and don't bother following any of the doctrines of it, which would have the same result as being atheist. Although you're the one who thought pot had no effect on you at all, so I'm not too surprised that you didn't notice that religion would have an effect on you too.

I'm personally with Tim Wakefield, I try to live a good, moral life(don't need religion to know right from wrong); but I don't think I have to pray, go to church, or donate money to do it. I try to live a good life not "just so I'll get into heaven," but because that's actually meaning and I'm a nice guy. I've got religious friends(roommate is Jewish and another is polytheistic), and we get along great; but they don't push their religion on me and I don't belittle theirs. Most atheists/agnostics are more tolerant about other religions than most organized relgions(christians especially), but just like every other religion, there are extremists. Ignore them, they're idiots.

 

[Excalibur]

The way I understand it Christians are considered deists, and every religion that believes in a creator is a deistic religion. I don't understand how you're differentiating between the founding fathers being deists and not Christians.

If you're happy about the life you lived, then your life had meaning and relevance. Thus your whole argument is void I

I don't think just being happy gives your life relevance to anyone but you.

 

[Bajaratt]

I don't think just being happy gives your life relevance to anyone but you.

I'm sure the other people around you that you help and interact with think your life is relevant too. Just being good for the sole reason of "you'll get into heaven that way" is purely selfish; being good and helping people because you want to help people is actually selfless.

 

[Excalibur]

Because if you are right, the only meaning your life would have is that it's only a test, and a lot of people don't like that concept.

Well that's where we're different. I don't do it thinking of it as just a concept, I think of it as the only correct way. You don't add 2 plus 2 and get 4 because that's the concept you were taught, you do it because it's correct.

I've got religious friends(roommate is Jewish and another is polytheistic), and we get along great; but they don't push their religion on me and I don't belittle theirs. Most atheists/agnostics are more tolerant about other religions than most organized relgions(christians especially), but just like every other religion, there are extremists. Ignore them, they're idiots.

And yet you're the one belittling me in the third or fourth thread after the discussion thread for smoking pot.

I'm sure the other people around you that you help and interact with think your life is relevant too. Just being good for the sole reason of "you'll get into heaven that way" is purely selfish; being good and helping people because you want to help people is actually selfless.

No, I do it because it's the right thing to do. Heaven is just a bonus.

 

[Neyla]

The way I understand it Christians are considered deists, and every religion that believes in a creator is a deistic religion. I don't understand how you're differentiating between the founding fathers being deists and not Christians.

Christians are deists, but not all deists are Christians. There are fundamental differences between Christians and deists who don't subscribe to a particular religion or set of dogma.

 

[Excalibur]

Christians are deists, but not all deists are Christians.

Well yeah of course.

who don't subscribe to a particular religion or set of dogma.

Yeah I guess that's true, didn't look at it that way. I was assuming that being deist meant believing in one or another religion too.

 

[Bajaratt]

Well that's where we're different. I don't do it thinking of it as just a concept, I think of it as the only correct way. You don't add 2 plus 2 and get 4 because that's the concept you were taught, you do it because it's correct.

So the only correct way to live your life is to believe in religion and trying to get into heaven?

And yet you're the one belittling me in the third or fourth thread after the discussion thread for smoking pot.

It's not for your religion though, it was for your stupid statement that pot doesn't have any effects on people. I don't know what religion you are nor do I really care.

No, I do it because it's the right thing to do. Heaven is just a bonus.

I don't really buy this, because you've already said one reason for your religion is a "just in case" measure; meaning that one of your goals is heaven. At that point it's not "just a bonus" but a basis for your actions.

 

[Fellina]

Any religion that believes in God is fundamentally deist, as the root of deism is simply the belief in God. However the actual belief system of Deism holds that the truth about God and the Creation can only be found in our own reasoning, not in the "divine revelations" of holy texts or prophets.

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modelled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature.

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

 

[Excalibur]

Any religion that believes in God is fundamentally deist, as the root of deism is simply the belief in God. However the actual belief system of Deism holds that the truth about God and the Creation can only be found in our own reasoning, not in the "divine revelations" of holy texts or prophets.

Ok, that makes it alot clearer.

So the only correct way to live your life is to believe in religion and trying to get into heaven?

No not exactly what I believe. If you wanna know what I believe is the only correct way to live your life I'll tell ya, but I doubt you do.

It's not for your religion though, it was for your stupid statement that pot doesn't have any effects on people. I don't know what religion you are nor do I really care.

Point is, double standard. Hypocrisy.

I don't really buy this, because you've already said one reason for your religion is a "just in case" measure; meaning that one of your goals is heaven. At that point it's not "just a bonus" but a basis for your actions.

No, I don't do it just in case, like I said, I do it because it's correct. I was using that more of an example of 'what if'.

 

[Bajaratt]

Point is, double standard. Hypocrisy.

It's not a double standard for thinking you're an idiot after you say something profoundly stupid; it's also not being religiously intolerant since it's has nothing to do with your religion.

No, I don't do it just in case, like I said, I do it because it's correct. I was using that more of an example of 'what if'.

So your way is the only correct way, so even if I live a perfectly good life, because I don't happen to believe in your god(or any at all for argument) I'm automatically wrong in how I live my life?

 

[Excalibur]

It's not a double standard for thinking you're an idiot after you say something profoundly stupid; it's also not being religiously intolerant since it's has nothing to do with your religion.

This made me laugh. I don't think I need to say anything though, everyone other than you already sees it, and I don't think you ever will so there's really no point.

So your way is the only correct way, so even if I live a perfectly good life, because I don't happen to believe in your god(or any at all for argument) I'm automatically wrong in how I live my life?

A. No one leads a perfectly good life
B. You can still lead a good life and be still be wrong in some aspects, not believing in God doesn't mean you're automatically a bad person, there are alot of good people that don't believe in God.

 

[K. Ishitar]

everything exists for a reason

I can understand why people hate religion but there are inconclusive factors to determine if it is wrong or right.

the act of dedication wavers when you follow a religion, and it should if you never face strife in your religion then you may just be blindly following it, some give up, some make their own.

its amazing how many different philosophies exist because of it no?

 

[Bajaratt]

This made me laugh. I don't think I need to say anything though, everyone other than you already sees it, and I don't think you ever will so there's really no point.

Since "everyone other than me already sees it," point out where I'm showing a double standard. There isn't one, which is why you haven't bothered to explain yourself so far; you're just throwing anything out there for lack of anything to actually defend yourself with, even if it doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Uzor]

If you believe in christianity for the sole reason of being rewarded in death, then that is selfish. Living your life to please yourself and live by your own meaning and goals and standards is also selfish. But that doesn't stop you from helping other people. From your description, it sounds like you help people in order to get in to heaven. We help people to help them.

However, let's face it. Everyone is selfish by nature. everyone. There is not a single person that do an unselfish act. The only difference is that there's good selfishness and bad selfishness.

If you help someone to feel good about yourself, you do it to feel good about yourself. Which is a selfish act. However, its a good selfish act, thus most people don't really consider it a selfish act. There is a reward in it, though. And that is feeling good about yourself. Subconsiously (sp?), though, we also do it to get on their good side, and possibly get their help in return in the future. So deep down, its a rather selfish act, even though its good. So comparing not being christian or being christian as selfish acts is rather meaningless, since every human are selfish. Everything we do is based on ourselves and to better ourselves.

As for the moral question of religion. Yes, religion does set some morals. As a matter of fact, everything written in all holy books are there in order to help people live better lives. Even the limits in food are there in order to prevent people from getting sick. Since pork were hard to cook, and need to be thouroughly cooked in order to be "safe" to eat, a lot of people got sick from it back in the days. So it was considered the devil's food. So they set down the rule that they were not allowed to eat it. Rather simple solution.

You don't need religion to live a good, meaningfull life. You don't need religion to set boundries and morals. Any normal human being with good parents know that killing people is wrong. That raping people is wrong. That stealing from someone else is wrong.

As a matter of fact, its so deeply dug in to ourselves that we don't do it. Stealing from others and getting discovered could lead to death back when we lived in smaller groups. If you were jelous of someone, it'd be easy to go in to their house while they were hunting to steal something of theirs. That, however, could lead to the whole group freezing you out of the community. And since humans were so strongly dependant on the group, it could lead to death.

Did you know that getting rejected by someone activates the same part of the brain that physical pain do? That's why a lot of people have a strong fear of getting rejected. It's connected with physical pain and death. You don't need to have religion in order to have basic morals. We have it from birth.

Humans also have a strong sense of ranking, even though we're not actively aware of it. For all animals, eye contact is usually linked together with challanging someone's rank. That's why cats, dogs, and monkies (together with a lot of other animals) hate eye contact. Dogs especially, look away from you if you keep eye contact with them. This can be seen when you take a walk on the streets. Mostly everyone will keep their eyes on the ground in front of them to avoid eye contact. Its also why men should try and keep eye contact untill the woman looks away if he's seriously interrested in him, since most women enjoy being of lower rank. Which is also proven by a lot of women being attracted to jerks. The old saying "Nice guy finnish last" comes from this.

Either way, my whole point in writing this seemingly off-topic issue, is to prove a point. My point is that deep down, everyone knowns right from wrong, since we subconsiously (sp?) constantly makes choices we're not aware that we're making. Our bodies controlls us more then we think. All religion do is strenghten the morals everyone already knows. So that part of religion is truely rather meaningless.

 

[Uzor]

everything exists for a reason

I can understand why people hate religion but there are inconclusive factors to determine if it is wrong or right.

the act of dedication wavers when you follow a religion, and it should if you never face strife in your religion then you may just be blindly following it, some give up, some make their own.

its amazing how many different philosophies exist because of it no?

The question is, dedication to what? A dedication to a religion can be good. However, I consider it more of a double-edged sword. While yes, it gives them hope that something above them will help them out if they pray enough, it can also lead to people completely giving up and rely solely on this higher power.

However, it can also lead to people making larger risks due to the fact they hope something else will help them out along the way. And with risk comes the big rewards. If you never risk anything, you'll keep what you have and win small. With big risk comes the chance of the biggest rewards. However, it can also lead to losing it all. So either way you look at it, depending on a larger power to help you out of the way can be considered a double edged sword.

As for everything existing for a reason, I believe that's a lot of bullshit Things don't need a reason to exist. It just do. It does however open up a lot of other possibilities, as it gives you the option of deciding what your own reason to live is. And if your a christian, didn't God give everyone the gift of making our own choices? Doesn't that, if anything, mean for everyone to decide what each and everyone's own reason to exist is?

So if anything, you'll go to heaven if you follow your own way and achieve your own goals as long as your not a criminal. In which case you'll end up in heaven wheither your a christian or not. Either way, I'm not interrested in dedicating my life to soemthing that may or may not be true, only to realise I threw my life away when I'm on my death bed.

If there truely is a god, I doubt he'd give us the option to decide over our own life, and to let us make our own choices wheither we believe in him or not, only to deny you access because you made the choice not to believe in him. If God truely is the person the christians say he is, he wouldn't care what you believe in as long as you live a good life. So what's the point of wasting it?