Best Defense Food for PLD

[Tim Wakefield]

In the words of Entourage's great Billy Walsh:

"Why fuck a chick with a vibrator when you have a dick?"

For people looking to get past this in a pick up party (me), after having multiple failures going the "traditional" method (me), using this "exploit" is sometimes the preferred strategy. If I had any form of in-game "integrity", I guess you could call it into question, but for a mission I just wanted to get past and an earring I had no use for, I was more than happy to use the Super-Tank method and save myself the giant headache.

 

[Raesvelg]

Odd statement that, "an earring I had no use for'. If you can't find a use for at least one of the Divine Might earrings...

 

[Redshift]

/facepalm

I need time to reply to 2004 timewarps, since I'm very busy right now.

 

[Necrosis]

Sky gods: Kirin tanked fine /war or /nin, but with zerging the need for pld's is gone
Byakko: I tanked PLD/WAR a couple of weeks ago, it's fine
Suzy: NIN excels
Seiryu: PLD/NIN
Genbu: /WAR or /NIN work, just different strats for each

It's nice that you assure us that you tanked byakko PLD/WAR "a couple weeks ago, [and] it's fine." RNG was never a strongpoint of one of my sky shells, so we would rarely dispel add effects; maybe this wasn't a problem with yours, I don't know. If there's an add effect, I think it's safe to say that /NIN is superior. Without an add effect, sky gods, barring shield blocks, are still capable of fucking someone up (see: sub-30% genbu); all the defender in the world won't save you. Not to mention that everytime you get hit, you're losing a modest amount of hate (hey, provoke isn't so great), and I assure you, it's less than you would lose if said NMs are merely pinging shadows. Besides Byakko and his ridiculous triple rate, nothing is really difficult to shadowtank in sky, and, really, I fail to see the benefits of /war.

HNM:
Vrtra: If not zerging, /war is a sufficient tank.

sufficient =/= superior.

/NIN works as well, but requires more support

lol.

Other minor zilart HNM's - /war more than sufficient, /nin works, but why?

See above. I'll pose the opposite question to you, why /war?

Meriting: Are you serious? PLD is a leech in merits no matter what the sj. Ultimately geared, a PLD can hold his own with a decently geared Dmg class job, but come on. The majority of invites the majority of the playerbase will get are going to be traditional style parties...and /war.
EXP 1-75: /war

PLD certainly is not the preferred meriting/exp job, but if one has to exp with a PLD, which would he prefer: a) a defendered/weak waste of a slot b) someone who can actually put up decent damage without losing any real hate-gaining potential (actually gaining some)

@EXP 1-75: post-hauby/vorpal blade, /nin or bust. It doesn't take a real genius to gear PLD for damage, and there's more than enough options at that level.

The reason SE can't 'fix' this exploit is because they haven't found a way yet to do it. They want to keep the integrity of proper uses (allowing pets to get hate) but haven't found a way to do that without changing hate altogether. It's an acceptable fact, but still an exploit of game mechanics.

Once again, no, it's not an exploit; it's game mechanics.

 

[jamal]

It's nice that you assure us that you tanked byakko PLD/WAR "a couple weeks ago, [and] it's fine." RNG was never a strongpoint of one of my sky shells, so we would rarely dispel add effects; maybe this wasn't a problem with yours, I don't know. If there's an add effect, I think it's safe to say that /NIN is superior. Without an add effect, sky gods, barring shield blocks, are still capable of fucking someone up (see: sub-30% genbu); all the defender in the world won't save you. Not to mention that everytime you get hit, you're losing a modest amount of hate (hey, provoke isn't so great), and I assure you, it's less than you would lose if said NMs are merely pinging shadows. Besides Byakko and his ridiculous triple rate, nothing is really difficult to shadowtank in sky, and, really, I fail to see the benefits of /war.


sufficient =/= superior.


lol.


See above. I'll pose the opposite question to you, why /war?


PLD certainly is not the preferred meriting/exp job, but if one has to exp with a PLD, which would he prefer: a) a defendered/weak waste of a slot b) someone who can actually put up decent damage without losing any real hate-gaining potential (actually gaining some)

@EXP 1-75: post-hauby/vorpal blade, /nin or bust. It doesn't take a real genius to gear PLD for damage, and there's more than enough options at that level.


Once again, no, it's not an exploit; it's game mechanics.

The difference lies in your hate-gaining potential factor. /WAR loses hate faster, /NIN takes longer to build.

Yes, PLD can lose hate quicker /war. However, in fast paced situations, ie Dynamis, Limbus (not ultima/omega), EXP the hate must be gained in a quicker amount of time. That is why Provoke is more beneficial. In dynamis if you're /nin, you won't have flash readily available for everymob, making main assisting while more MP efficient on your own party nearly impossible to pull hate right away on every mob.

I wasn't setting out to say /WAR is better, just that it's situational. /WAR is a sufficient sub in many situations. /NIN is a sufficient sub in many situations. To be stuck on one or the other is a mistake. To realize and utilize the pro's and con's of both is better.

The original aspect of this derail was the talk of a progression. I've been using PLD/NIN for 4 years as well. I didn't have it leveling PLD, but when I hit 75 I began using it. Situationally, either can work with different support.

How many times have you tanked vrtra to register that 'lol'?

 

[Tymon]

Nyzul Isle, barring 20,40,60,80,100 boss floors, are a glorified merit party enviroment. PLD is dead weight on those floors.

As far as boss floors go, having a PLD/NIN tank is awesome especially on 80,100 floors, since you're fighting cerb/khim/hydra.

 

[Necrosis]

The difference lies in your hate-gaining potential factor. /WAR loses hate faster, /NIN takes longer to build.

It doesn't take /NIN very long to get a significant amount of hate, hellllooo flash, cure4, etc?

/war, 99% of the time (exceptions... uh KB?), is, at best, inferior to /nin.

 

[jamal]

It doesn't take /NIN very long to get a significant amount of hate, hellllooo flash, cure4, etc?

/war, 99% of the time (exceptions... uh KB?), is, at best, inferior to /nin.

Dynamis, exp 1-73, Most (not all) limbus zones /war > /nin. I've done them as both.

I admit that you'd have an easier time due to your mp pool working /nin. Thus, unless optimally setup, in a majority of situations I'd prefer /war. I'm not saying /nin doesn't work or won't work. Behemoth subjob doesn't matter. All lesser HNM's SJ doesn't matter. It doesn't make /nin superior just because you choose to use it. I'm as big of a /nin supporter you'll find...but I also realize other subs hold merit.

If /nin is used for damage mitigation, and you're holding hate, who exactly are you cure spamming to build this hate to start fights?

 

[Rhaddy]

Dynamis, exp 1-73, Most (not all) limbus zones /war > /nin. I've done them as both.

I admit that you'd have an easier time due to your mp pool working /nin. Thus, unless optimally setup, in a majority of situations I'd prefer /war. I'm not saying /nin doesn't work or won't work. Behemoth subjob doesn't matter. All lesser HNM's SJ doesn't matter. It doesn't make /nin superior just because you choose to use it. I'm as big of a /nin supporter you'll find...but I also realize other subs hold merit.

If /nin is used for damage mitigation, and you're holding hate, who exactly are you cure spamming to build this hate to start fights?

uh
macro hp equipment -> cure 4

 

[jamal]

uh
macro hp equipment -> cure 4

Fair enough. Never been too proud to admit being wrong. Honestly didn't think of that.

 

[Redshift]

Regarding the baseless idea that /NIN takes long to get hate compared to /WAR is getting old... I'll go over it slowly with details for Jamal.

Hate tools for PLD main include:
Flash (1280VE, 180CE),
Sentinel (1800VE, 1CE, Enmity+100 for the duration; equivalently enmity+100%),
Shield Bash (900VE, 1CE),
Cures (CE = 0.7275 x HP Cured, VE = 4.4 x HP Cured),
Rampart (300VE/person).

/WAR gives:
Provoke (1800 VE, 1CE), Warcry (300VE/person) and lolDefender (80VE)

/NIN gives:
Incredible survivability through Utsusemi, saves babies by day, cures cancer by night, feeds Africa, etc.

VE caps at 10,000VE, CE caps at 10,000CE. VE decays at 60VE/sec, CE is lost by taking damage or shadows (-25CE)

If a PLD/NIN did Sentinel > Flash/Shield Bash/Cure IV @390HP that would generate...

1800VE + 1280VE x2 + 900VE x2 + 4.4 x 390HP x 2 = ...

9,592VE (The cap is 10,000VE, rendering Provoke utterly and completely useless for 99% of HNM, sea jailers, sky gods, Nyzul Bosses and MORE!)
Yes, I had to make it super big for super emphasis and super truth.


Sky gods - Just because you can make /WAR "work' doesn't mean it's optimal, MP efficient and good hate. I've dual tanked sky gods as WAR/NIN with TAs for hate just as you have with PLD/WAR, so why don't we all just use WAR/NIN now because it works too!

Limbus (barring u/o) - Again, making something work doesn't mean it's optimal, etc. When you say /WAR is better, are you assuming you have a dumb number of people for Limbus? Over 2 parties for any zone is dumb, roughly 4-8 people is safe and even excessive for many zones (Apollyon NW for example). You can't do that with /WAR.

HNM (except KB) - You can hold Tiamat, Vrtra, Cerberus, Khimaira, Nidhogg and everything short of AV forever with PLD/NINx2, BRDx2, WHM and RDM. Replace that with PLD/WAR and does not compute. If you wanted PLD/WAR to work here, you need more support (I thought /NIN needs more support?). When we've had few people on and Adamantoise is up and unclaimed (with other linkshells rushing there), we've had PLD/NIN hold solo for incredibly long, I can't imagine PLD/WAR doing the same. And again, because you can make it work is not a valid point. Nny on my old server tanked Fafnir as WAR/MNK. Did it work? Yes. Was it effective, optimal, useful, etc not really. And how could you say NIN is better for Tiamat than PLD?

Nyzul - Yes, I was referring to the boss floors since you can't prepare for any other floors.

Meriting - Depending on party setup (having a BRD and RDM), /NIN is possible 60+. PLD/NIN meriting isn't as bad as you claim, it's as good as a WAR without the brains to use Great Axe.

Fin.

 

[Makelith]

If a PLD/NIN did Sentinel > Flash/Shield Bash/Cure IV @390HP that would generate...

1800VE + 1280VE x2 + 900VE x2 + 4.4 x 390HP x 2 = ...

Where are you getting all of these random "x2"'s from? The way you have it is:

1800 + 1280 + 900 + (4.4 x 390) = 5696.

Besides, i thought CE was the one tanks wanted to go after for the long fights?

 

[Galadrios]

The x2 is due to the effect of Sentinel on hate increase.

 

[Diabllos]

Real men tank MNK/WAR.

(Do not make me back up that statement.)

 

[Redshift]

Where are you getting all of these random "x2"'s from? The way you have it is:

1800 + 1280 + 900 + (4.4 x 390) = 5696.

Besides, i thought CE was the one tanks wanted to go after for the long fights?

During the duration of Sentinel, you have enmity+100 (enmity+100 is the cap, iirc), which is equivalently +100%.

CE is what tanks want to go for. I just showed that the only purpose to /WAR is nulled because you can get to the VE cap easily without Provoke. Without shadows, tanks cannot build to the CE cap because taking direct damage is much more costly towards CE than shadows, which is only -25CE.

Real men tank WAR/SAM.

(Do not make me back up that statement.)

Fixed for truth

 

[jamal]

I'm aware of the formulas. I'm aware in long drawn out fights or holding HNM that /NIN is superior. I already conceded that, I've conceded Aspid, Faf, and Nid PLD/NIN is superior IF you are choosing to use them as tanks. Holding mobs with low numbers is a valuable asset. However holding mobs and providing the best solution are not the same thing.

As I've said before, <25% on Tiamat and Jorm we've encountered Roar spams, resetting hate. Fully merited Sentinel recast is 4:10, which in a pinch would not provide the ability to quickly generate hate. Also, if shadows are stripped and shadows can't be brought up, Sentinel may be used to reduce damage taken. I'd PREFER to have NIN/DRK tanks in this situation, assuming PLD's are not aegis pld's for the damage reduction.

I'm also aware that any party having a BRD + RDM 60+ that PLD / anything isn't the optimal tank. More often in a PLD party, you'll have BRD OR RDM, multiple DD's and a BLM. When you're doing this, you want to solidify hate asap to allow the DD's in your party deal damage. Thus, Provoke + Flash is a good combination to handle that.

Limbus I haven't done in years, but the need for PLD's was minimal. The only zone a PLD was useful (with the exception of U/O) was the king floor, which including the KB clone. Which, I'd use /war PLD.

Nice lil bash in there about WARs not using GA. Let's party sometime. A pld/nin assuming equivalent gear sets is a Dual-weilding WAR without berserk, aggressor, DA, or Haidate.

Both are situational, as I've said. PLD isn't the optimal tank in many situations. In the situations it is the optimal choice, there are times /nin is the best solution, and times /war is the best solution.

The one thing I didn't think of was already pointed out prior to your numbers by Rhaddy.

 

[Diabllos]

Fixed for truth

No seriously... I've tanked every trigger in Sky as MNK/WAR. I know, Zip and Faust are very sirius bizniz.

 

[Rhaddy]

I'm aware of the formulas. I'm aware in long drawn out fights or holding HNM that /NIN is superior. I already conceded that, I've conceded Aspid, Faf, and Nid PLD/NIN is superior IF you are choosing to use them as tanks. Holding mobs with low numbers is a valuable asset. However holding mobs and providing the best solution are not the same thing.

As I've said before, <25% on Tiamat and Jorm we've encountered Roar spams, resetting hate. Fully merited Sentinel recast is 4:10, which in a pinch would not provide the ability to quickly generate hate. Also, if shadows are stripped and shadows can't be brought up, Sentinel may be used to reduce damage taken. I'd PREFER to have NIN/DRK tanks in this situation, assuming PLD's are not aegis pld's for the damage reduction.

I'm also aware that any party having a BRD + RDM 60+ that PLD / anything isn't the optimal tank. More often in a PLD party, you'll have BRD OR RDM, multiple DD's and a BLM. When you're doing this, you want to solidify hate asap to allow the DD's in your party deal damage. Thus, Provoke + Flash is a good combination to handle that.

Limbus I haven't done in years, but the need for PLD's was minimal. The only zone a PLD was useful (with the exception of U/O) was the king floor, which including the KB clone. Which, I'd use /war PLD.

Nice lil bash in there about WARs not using GA. Let's party sometime. A pld/nin assuming equivalent gear sets is a Dual-weilding WAR without berserk, aggressor, DA, or Haidate.

Both are situational, as I've said. PLD isn't the optimal tank in many situations. In the situations it is the optimal choice, there are times /nin is the best solution, and times /war is the best solution.

The one thing I didn't think of was already pointed out prior to your numbers by Rhaddy.

Roar spam is not a big problem these days and as for limbus, that king zone can be solo'd by a BLM, using it as an argument for pld/war doesn't hold a lot of water. If pld/war wasn't always feeding mobs free tp, it'd might be fun to use, but on anything more towards end game /nin seems to win out. There are plenty of situations where /war is nice too, but they just don't seem to have much to do with endgame these days. Since its on the endgame section of this forum, in the endgame situation - the shit isn't so situational.

 

[Redshift]

Picking NIN/DRK over PLD/NIN is linkshell preference at best, my old linkshell lived and died by PLD/NIN and would never consider using NIN/DRK. The differences are minimal at best; NIN/DRK gains CE faster than PLD/NIN, but PLD/NIN (as I've already shown) can build up initial hate from VE faster while building CE slightly slower. NIN/DRK uses MP for hate, while PLD/NIN uses MP for healing and hate. NIN has an extra shadow, PLD is more versatile (see Khim) and can take hits.

Roar? Is that you're best point for HNM? Really, come on now... Roar? I've killed Tiamat and Jorm far too many times (ask your BFF Blazeoffury<3) and I could tell you the number of Roars I've seen on one hand. Get a better strategy and you won't see any.

If you read what I said regarding Limbus and even specifically citing Apollyon NW (KB zone) as an example of an easy zone... BLMx2 RDM trio can clear the zone easily without any real effort and plenty of time to spare; many BLMs can solo the entire zone as well.

Outparsed a ridill/MANEATER/ebody/vbelt WAR/NIN at Mamool southern camp (more puks favour ridill over GA) 33% to 27.5% on my horrible 2k+ ping connection as WAR/SAM. Ridill is dead.

Yes, PLD/NIN and PLD/WAR are both situational. Thank you captain obvious, your information is of the highest caliber. But let's rephrase it for more accuracy; the number of situations you would use PLD/NIN far exceeds that of PLD/WAR.

 

[jamal]

Outparsed a ridill/MANEATER/ebody/vbelt WAR/NIN at Mamool southern camp (more puks favour ridill over GA) 33% to 27.5% on my horrible 2k+ ping connection as WAR/SAM. Ridill is dead.

Whatever you say boss. Ridill WARs are a dime a dozen now. Ridill / Maneater / Vbelt...did it happen to be darth?

Find a real Ridill War on this server (hint, there's two). Just because not everyone can play it right doesn't mean it's dead.