Bible Thumpers

[Nicolette]

Problems with Jesus, or the many atrocities over the years that a bunch of deluded, power-hungry individuals have tried to prop up using His name?

The book isnt responsible for their actions, they are - ultimately. The book was just a scapegoat... like jesus is for personal responsibility.

 

[Tagrineth]

A prophet brings wisdom and guidance to people.

A psychic cons people out of their money by telling them things they already know.

 

[Xean]

Lmao.

Ding. WRONG.

A) psychics are probably full of shit.
B) many psychics claim that their gift was from god
C) where the fuck is the office i can go to to make sure i have the proper permits from god to be a psychic?

The fact of the matter is this, it applies to the governmental stance on gay marriages as well:

If you don't reproduce due to sexual orientation you can't manage to make more parishoners for said church now can you?

Donation boxes go empty.
No one comes to worship.
Eventually your religion goes the way of the dodo.

Hence wether or not homosexuality was truly mentioned in the original texts is something no one will know. As is the version most people use today is riddled with innacurate translations and propaganda added by scholars and the church itself during the middle ages.

For that matter your bible there isn't complete at all. Gnostic gospels anyone? nonononono, said the church, those don't tell the truth we'd like the masses to follow as religious law.

This conversation's been over for god knows how many pages now and i'm absolutely convinced that anyone still involved with it lacks the education to make any kind of coherent argument one way or the other. Let it go already.

Ding. You're wrong. *sigh*

The ONLY reason I answered his questions about psychics was because he brought them up and thought they were the same. I am not saying that psychics are true; I myself do not believe in them. But I am explaining by their own reasoning how they work. Astrologists, for example, claim they use the stars for their future telling. And what psychics? Just because people claim something doesn't mean they actually do. Catholic priests throughout the centuries were supposed to have followed the Book, but they obviously didn't as is recorded in history with their debauchery, taking advantage of weak-willed women, lying to the people, using the teachings to make themselves rich, etc.

And when did I ever say the Bible was incomplete? I myself know of the Gnostic gospels (Phillip, Thomas, Mary). Or the things that Apollos did as a public speaker as Paul; they did their works at the same time.

And I will stand in defense of the God I have my faith in. You should let go about being "educated". If you're so educated, explain to me what started the creation of the universe.

 

[Mokk]

The book isnt responsible for their actions, they are - ultimately. The book was just a scapegoat... like jesus is for personal responsibility.

Actually to be quite literal god is.

You can't be omnipotent, all knowing, and the creator of all things without being responsible for everything. To put too fine a point you can't belive in god without holding god accountable for the things you don't like as much as things you do.

 

[Xean]

which I remarked upon and dismissed both times. I have bigger problems with the jesus character than the OT god.

And what has he done to you?

 

[Xean]

Actually to be quite literal god is.

You can't be omnipotent, all knowing, and the creator of all things without being responsible for everything. To put too fine a point you can't belive in god without holding god accountable for the things you don't like as much as things you do.

So God is the reason you are alive and posting to this thread. Right?

 

[Mokk]

Ding. You're wrong. *sigh*

The ONLY reason I answered his questions about psychics was because he brought them up and thought they were the same. I am not saying that psychics are true; I myself do not believe in them. But I am explaining by their own reasoning how they work. Astrologists, for example, claim they use the stars for their future telling. And what psychics? Just because people claim something doesn't mean they actually do. Catholic priests throughout the centuries were supposed to have followed the Book, but they obviously didn't as is recorded in history with their debauchery, taking advantage of weak-willed women, lying to the people, using the teachings to make themselves rich, etc.

And when did I ever say the Bible was incomplete? I myself know of the Gnostic gospels (Phillip, Thomas, Mary). Or the things that Apollos did as a public speaker as Paul; they did their works at the same time.

And I will stand in defense of the God I have my faith in. You should let go about being "educated". If you're so educated, explain to me what started the creation of the universe.

So sorry, the gnostic gospels were written decades after the set allowed to enter the bible, watch more history channel.

You want to talk creationism?

If the universe had to be created than so did god and the creator of god and the creater of the creator of god and so on. It's this kind of backwards logic that makes the rest of us scratch our heads at you people who think you have all the answers.

 

[Reauland]

The fact of the matter is this, it applies to the governmental stance on gay marriages as well:

If you don't reproduce due to sexual orientation you can't manage to make more parishoners for said church now can you?

Donation boxes go empty.
No one comes to worship.
Eventually your religion goes the way of the dodo.

I disagree. That almost sounded as if you were trying to say that if the texts said nothing at all concerning sexual orientation that everyone would just default to gay relationships.

As is the version most people use today is riddled with innacurate translations and propaganda added by scholars and the church itself during the middle ages.

I haven't had much of a chance to check out any of the analyses and comparisons between the Dead Sea Scrolls and any of the current translations, but I'd love a link if you know a good one.

Hearing that there are inaccuracies is one thing. Seeing them is something else entirely.

 

[Mokk]

So God is the reason you are alive and posting to this thread. Right?

If that's how someone else sees it, sure. I have no problem with that. I fully believe in a higher power of some sort but i know enough about what little i know to know that no one has it right definitively.

 

[Mokk]

I disagree. That almost sounded as if you were trying to say that if the texts said nothing at all concerning sexual orientation that everyone would just default to gay relationships.

that's not exactly what i meant but in some ancient societies it's a believable outcome e.g Rome. The fact of the matter is as an upstanding member of society you are asked to go forth and multiply not only for your government but for your religion. If you don't neither succeeds, it's very simply, i'd like to think the people who founded these institutions could at least grasp this concept before just adding it in for their own amusement or because someone said god told them to.

I haven't had much of a chance to check out any of the analyses and comparisons between the Dead Sea Scrolls and any of the current translations, but I'd love a link if you know a good one.

Hearing that there are inaccuracies is one thing. Seeing them is something else entirely.

History channel and nat. geo are running documentaries on it constantly. I'd say both of their sites have very articles on them.

 

[Xean]

So sorry, the gnostic gospels were written decades after the set allowed to enter the bible, watch more history channel.

You want to talk creationism?

If the universe had to be created than so did god and the creator of god and the creater of the creator of god and so on. It's this kind of backwards logic that makes the rest of us scratch our heads at you people who think you have all the answers.

Alright, and when did I even say when the Gnostic gospels were written? You're trying to take a shot at me when I never even made a claim to when they were written. Those arose a few centuries after the canon, which is why people choose to ignore those, saying that their late existence calls for lack of credibility. The whole reason I have what things I have brought up that help give evidence to the Bible, aside from reading the Bible myself, are from having watched History Channel AND Discovery Channel.

The imprisonment of the Israelites by the Egyptians is a true event.
The 7 plagues were a historically true event.
The fall of Babylon was a historically true event.
Pontius Pilate was a historically true figure.
Jesus was a real man that existed.

And your explanation doesn't disprove the existence of God.

 

[Xean]

If that's how someone else sees it, sure. I have no problem with that. I fully believe in a higher power of some sort but i know enough about what little i know to know that no one has it right definitively.

Thanks.

 

[Songi_]

We're all missing the point, and sure, I could ramble on about how Levitical Law is garbage unless the entire thing is followed including Jewish dietary restrictions and circumcision procedures (and many other Jewish obligations, and at a meeting between Peter and Paul during the formation of the early Church it was decided that non-Jewish Christian converts are not subject to those obligations), or about how there has been no text from any gospel referencing homosexuality, only the epistles of Paul, who, if my memory serves me, never met Christ, but here's the issue:

Mob mentality!

Homosexual-hating is the same thing as racism, just slightly more socially acceptable. Homosexuals are a minority. The bible contains lines which may, under certain specific conditions, be interpreted as condemning homosexuality. It makes people feel good to gang up on this minority. Do you see these people speaking out against people who have premarital sex? Nowhere near as often. Why? Premarital sex is perfectly socially acceptable today.

Seriously folks, stop giving these homophobes so much credit.

 

[Mokk]

And your explanation doesn't disprove the existence of God.

And yours doesn't prove the existence of god, so where does that leave us?

 

[Xean]

And yours doesn't prove the existence of god, so where does that leave us?

This goes back to a post I made a couple pages back you obviously chose to ignore, or at least, haven't seen.

This leaves us to have faith, without so much human reasoning.

 

[Mokk]

Should've expounded a lil more. Existence isn't what this is about. What this is about is what man thinks god said 2-3000 years after the fact. Truth is if god cared so much about it San Fransisco would've gone the way of soddom and ghamora ages ago.

For that matter god might've shown up to speak on his own behalf sometime between now and ... i don't know .. 15-2000 years in the past. Yet not a word or a light or an angel ... nothing.

Lotsa crazy yahoos who think they know for sure pipe up, but that doesn't do the christian ideal of god alot of justice now does it? Especially considering it takes an issue people find themselves uncomfortable with to get to talking about god's plans and ideals.

 

[Reauland]

The book isnt responsible for their actions, they are - ultimately. The book was just a scapegoat... like jesus is for personal responsibility.

I'm not entirely sure that answered my question. And more to the point, a true Christian knows that Jesus isn't a scapegoat for any responsibility whatsoever. He's more like an example that you try to live up to.

Anyone just using Him as "fire insurance" is a frikkin copout. If you think that Christians all think that they can do whatever the hell they want, be as judgemental, mean-spirited, and hateful as they want, then just ask for forgiveness, you've been looking at the wrong examples. Christianity is a path to be walked to the very best ability you can, every hour of every day. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably be looking a little deeper into what was meant by the phrase "take up thy cross and follow me".

And on the subject of responsibility, that's exactly what I'm saying - everyone is responsible for their own actions. Period. So blaming Jesus for the actions that others subsequently took supposedly in His name and seeking to justify their misguided actions through the Scriptures are the same kind of self-serving thugs that nearly destroyed the Catholic Church during the days of Martin Luther.

 

[Mokk]

This goes back to a post I made a couple pages back you obviously chose to ignore, or at least, haven't seen.

This leaves us to have faith, without so much human reasoning.

i assume lemmings have faith too, until the long drop.

My whole issue is the mentality of "God said this. We're right, you're wrong, enjoy hell."

I have faith in faith. Faith rules, but it doesn't excuse me from thinking for myself.

 

[Xean]

Should've expounded a lil more. Existence isn't what this is about. What this is about is what man thinks god said 2-3000 years after the fact. Truth is if god cared so much about it San Fransisco would've gone the way of soddom and ghamora ages ago.

For that matter god might've shown up to speak on his own behalf sometime between now and ... i don't know .. 15-2000 years in the past. Yet not a word or a light or an angel ... nothing.

Lotsa crazy yahoos who think they know for sure pipe up, but that doesn't do the christian ideal of god alot of justice now does it? Especially considering it takes an issue people find themselves uncomfortable with to get to talking about god's plans and ideals.

As you said, it is what man thinks, not what God knows.
If God controlled everything so obviously, it shows we aren't humans with a free will. Be glad we all have that. You have the choice not to believe in Him. He won't show himself for whatever his reasons may be. Obviously, it separates the believes from the unbelievers. And there will always be times when some person claims something and it isn't true. There were false Messiahs before and after Jesus lived. His own people didn't believe in Jesus, and got him killed. Yeah, not a lot of justice for Him, but done what he did for everyone. There are, still, do this day, false teachers and such. That's undeniable, but that still doesn't make everything else false.

 

[Nicolette]

I'm not entirely sure that answered my question. And more to the point, a true Christian knows that Jesus isn't a scapegoat for any responsibility whatsoever. He's more like an example that you try to live up to.

Anyone just using Him as "fire insurance" is a frikkin copout. If you think that Christians all think that they can do whatever the hell they want, be as judgemental, mean-spirited, and hateful as they want, then just ask for forgiveness, you've been looking at the wrong examples. Christianity is a path to be walked to the very best ability you can, every hour of every day. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably be looking a little deeper into what was meant by the phrase "take up thy cross and follow me".

And on the subject of responsibility, that's exactly what I'm saying - everyone is responsible for their own actions. Period. So blaming Jesus for the actions that others subsequently took supposedly in His name and seeking to justify their misguided actions through the Scriptures are the same kind of self-serving thugs that nearly destroyed the Catholic Church during the days of Martin Luther.

Exactly. I feel that people who use OT passages as an excuse to attack or deprive or censure homosexuals are "self-serving thugs."

And plenty of christians see jesus "the way the truth and the light, none passeth unto god but by me's" as a repeal of any need to follow the OT at all, and accept his martyrdom for their sins as an abrogation of responsibility. After all, jesus has already taken responsibility and punishment for your sins. (immoral in the extreme IMO)