Bible Thumpers

[Halifirien]

I don't think it's insulting the book to question the way it's interpreted by the faithful or the way it was assembled.

 

[Xean]

It is clear that it is not 100% sure for us who cannot read the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek texts, since you read from one translation, and others read differently. I will post the differences in the translations to show it's not exactly as it says in a particular one. I'll be using NIV translation.

1Ti 1:3-17
(9) knowing this, that Law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for lawless and undisciplined ones, for ungodly and sinful ones, for unholy and profane ones, for slayers of fathers and slayers of mothers, for murderers,
(10) for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes sound doctrine

(9) We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, (10) for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine (11) that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

No clear mention of homosexuality.

1Co 6:1-20
(9) Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,
(10) nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(15) Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Then taking the members of Christ, shall I make them members of a harlot? Let it not be!
(16) Or do you not know that he being joined to a harlot is one body? For He says, "The two shall be into one flesh." Gen. 2:24
(17) But the one being joined to the Lord is one spirit.
(18) Flee fornication. Every sin which a man may do is outside the body, but he doing fornication sins against his own body.

(9)Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Here it says "homosexual offenders". That could give an entirely different meaning than just a homosexual. This is similar to a sexual offender, except it's done to the same sex. So it could be the sexual offense that is the worse matter. Again, it's pointing to the act of sex.

Lev 18:22
(22) And you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is a perversion.

This is perhaps the clearest statement about having sex with someone of the same gender, but it doesn't say that it's repeated as often as you said. And remember, this is Old Testament law, which is dissimilar to the teachings of the New Testament.

Deu 23:17
(17) There shall be no prostitute among the daughters of Israel, nor shall there be a homosexual among the sons of Israel.

(17)No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute. (18) You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both.

The NIV version says nothing of homosexuality, but distinctly mentions that of prostitution, man or woman.

Jdg 19:22
(22) They were making their hearts merry. And, behold, men of the city, sons of worthless men, went around the house, beating on the door. And they spoke to the old man, the house-master, saying, Bring out the man who has come into your house, and we shall know him.

This was only the description of an event where a group of guys wanted sex with a man. There is no statement about homosexuality. But their lustful desire is surely a sin.

Rom 1:16-27
(24) Because of this, God gave them up to impurity in the lusts of their hearts, their bodies to be dishonored among themselves,
(25) who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(26) Because of this, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for even their females changed the natural use to that contrary to nature.
(27) And likewise, the males also forsaking the natural use of the female burned in their lust toward one another, males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving back within themselves the reward which was fitting for their error.

This is the one I was talking about earlier. Near the top it says he let them fall to their own lusts. Further down, the key thing to look at is burned in their lust. It is this kind of intensity of lust that is a sin, because it is done entirely in the flesh.

Joh 3:5-21
(5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
(6) That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.
(8) The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
(9) Nicodemus answered and said to Him, How are these things able to occur?
(10) Jesus answered and said to him, You are the teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?
(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, That which we know, we speak; and that which we have seen, we testify. And you do not receive our testimony.
(12) If I tell you earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
(13) And no one has gone up into Heaven, except He having come down out of Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
(14) And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
(15) that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
(18 ) The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the Light, for their works were evil.
(20) For everyone practicing wickedness hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his works may not be exposed.
(21) But the one doing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.

Ok this has nothing to do with homosexuality directly, but it is clear in New Testament teaching that love is the fulfillment of the law. It is the greatest commandment, above all things.

 

[Xean]

Needed to add this to the end of my previous post.

Romans 13:10 - Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Xean]

um please, lets not play the "interpret the bible to suit my arguement" game. If youre homophobic just own up and say youre homophobic. Dont blame it on god.
btw if youre looking for contradictions to those passages, or indeed practically any part of the bible go here.

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

some favorites about the god youre claiming to emulate.

God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family.
gen 19:24

After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control.
gen 38:8-10

God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." exodus 11:7

After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." exodus 12:29

Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property. exodus 23:24

God, "whose name is Jealous", will not tolerate the worship of any other god. exodus 34:14

Handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God. They would "profane" it. leviticus 21:16-23

A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." leviticus 24:10-23

God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff: plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters." leviticus 26:16-39

theres plenty more and not only in the old testament, but if you want to reference old testament morality to lend weight to your homophobic stance make sure you support baby killing, torture, discrimination against the handicapped, murder, and raping your brothers wife... after you kill him.

You should really post what you get from the New Testament. He does those things for reasons humans could not understand. He tells that to one of his own prophets, Habakkuk. God lets his own people become imprisoned by others, which includes the Egyptions and the Babylonians. The harm done to people is to help purify them. Those "contradictions" can be contradicted by reminding of the fact that even God's people are hurt and killed. Many have been killed at the hand of another: the many prophets of the Old Testament, John the Baptist, Paul the Apostle, and Jesus himself. All men are beaten, stoned, flogged, and killed. What does that say? It might look bad upon God's image to those who understand, but by people dying to people who could commit the act of killing goes to show that the victim was being good. And of people who die, who knows what happens to each person after death, but whatever does, it just may be for a better cause, because a morally wicked person will continue in his/her sins. If you want personal accounts of this, read the stories of people who have NDEs. Why, even one man, named Howard Storm wrote about his experience being clinically dead, before being alive again, in which he himself said he was in hell. But then he was given a chance to believe, and when he did, he saw Jesus and was brought out of there. Before his experience he felt strong disbelief against God, but afterwards believed and follows. This is, of course, if you even choose to believe this. Humans can't always understand God. Explain why He created the universe, or how even, when coming out of nothingness.

 

[Xean]

Damn lack of edit button. -_- Anyways, that part about his name. The name of God in Hebrew as used in the days of the Old Testament is pronounced as "Yahweh". The meaning of "Yahweh" is "to be". That part in the ENGLISH translation could possibly just be a mistranslation.

 

[Nicolette]

You should really post what you get from the New Testament. He does those things for reasons humans could not understand.

God: Go kill babies.
man: what? are you nuts?
God: no its ok, on a higher plane we go in for this sort of thing all the time. You dont understand cause youre human. Trust me, its fine.
man: eh, I dont know about this down here we really look down on child murdering.
God: do what I say or ill have people tie you up in a sack with scorpions, and though youll want to die, I wont let you.
man: Jesus. fine ill go slaughter some infants.

man: i'm back, killed a bunch of babies.
God: that was a test, you werent really supposed to kill babies, now i'm going to send you to hell.
man: wtf? god you suck.
God: But i'm god, so i'll do whatever I want.



Definitely the mindset of a diety im interested in following.

 

[Xean]

And where are you taking that from?

If you read from that site, then read about what he commanded Abraham. Yeah, he did command him to kill his own baby son. He gave him three days, where he was to go up to the mountain and do so. When he went up, he lifted his dagger above the child, and as soon as it was going down, God told him to stop. What was he doing? Testing his faith.

Read good fictional example you gave.

 

[Xean]

Read good fictional example you gave.

Real***

 

[Nicolette]

It was a sarcastic, mostly tongue-in-cheek, tale to help show you how the excuse that "because humans wouldnt understand" is a bullshit answer to what amounts to immoral behavior sanctioned by god. I.E. numerous examples of killing infants, sacrifice, horrors inflicted on the innocent, and the so called virtuous dead who may or may not be better off in an afterlife of which you can only guess, hope, and dream will make their deaths meaningful.

 

[Xean]

That doesn't answer to everything else I explained.

 

[Nicolette]

and its pretty indicitive of the behavior of the OT god to his followers and victims, despite being 2min worth of work.

 

[Xean]

That's not indicative to his behavior.

Oh and if I'm wrong, please try to prove me so. Tell me why you think he had Jesus whipped severely and hung on the cross? Oh and don't tell me that never happened. Even the Roman leader of his area, Pontius Pilate, is a historically factual figure.

 

[Xean]

That's not indicative to his behavior.

Oh and if I'm wrong, please try to prove me so. Tell me why you think he had Jesus whipped severely and hung on the cross? Oh and don't tell me that never happened. Even the Roman leader of his area, Pontius Pilate, is a historically factual figure.

***who was the one who commissioned his death sentence***

 

[Nicolette]

He does those things for reasons humans could not understand. He tells that to one of his own prophets, Habakkuk. God lets his own people become imprisoned by others, which includes the Egyptions and the Babylonians. The harm done to people is to help purify them. Those "contradictions" can be contradicted by reminding of the fact that even God's people are hurt and killed. Many have been killed at the hand of another: the many prophets of the Old Testament, John the Baptist, Paul the Apostle, and Jesus himself. All men are beaten, stoned, flogged, and killed. What does that say? It might look bad upon God's image to those who understand, but by people dying to people who could commit the act of killing goes to show that the victim was being good. And of people who die, who knows what happens to each person after death, but whatever does, it just may be for a better cause, because a morally wicked person will continue in his/her sins. If you want personal accounts of this, read the stories of people who have NDEs. Why, even one man, named Howard Storm wrote about his experience being clinically dead, before being alive again, in which he himself said he was in hell. But then he was given a chance to believe, and when he did, he saw Jesus and was brought out of there. Before his experience he felt strong disbelief against God, but afterwards believed and follows. This is, of course, if you even choose to believe this. Humans can't always understand God. Explain why He created the universe, or how even, when coming out of nothingness.

youre right, it doesnt. lemme waste 2 more minutes of my life debunking your wall-o-text.

1st couple lines about how what god does is ineffable making it somehow OK.
2nd bit, notables and unnotables being tortured, killed, or imprisoned because its a form of ritual purification to get into heaven, again intimating that because god orders it its ok, and further saying that those killed by the people god makes kill them are blessed.
3rd referring to people who have experienced near-death experiences as credible factual sources.
last bit, to paraphrase: God did stuff, you cant understand it or his motives.

The first thing is crap and if you dont know it you need to be locked up. The quickest way for you to get yourself removed from society is, ironically, to try to follow any of the old prescribed rituals and standards set forth in the old testament as pleasing to god. Several carry life sentances and i'm sure if you push it and are in the right state you can get the chair and satisfy parts 2 and 3 of your argument or better.
2nd bit. I see. Bdsm is a purifying and holy thing created by god. Too bad the victims didnt know the "safe word."
3rd. Please. I can give more lurid accounts of an afterlife on recreational drugs than a resuccitated heart attack victim or whatever. Doesnt make it any more factual.
4th I understand the motives of the people who wrote the bible, I understand the motives of the church that removed entire testaments, and have rewritten and retranslated it from cover to cover for centuries. I dont understand how you dont understand that.

 

[Nicolette]

ah. there you go jumping into the NT, to excuse actions done in the OT.

just because jesus redefines the road to heaven, doesnt make the past before him vanish, or rewrite the character of god.

 

[Reauland]

Perhaps not, but it does pretty much close the book(pardon the pun) on the OT.

If it doesn't, what He came to say would be pretty pointless would it not?

 

[DodgeRoadRage]

No longer posts.

 

[Nicolette]

If thats the case, then where are the quotes from jesus against homosexuals?
Or is it only ok to "open the book" on the OT to use it as a weapon.

 

[Xean]

youre right, it doesnt. lemme waste 2 more minutes of my life debunking your wall-o-text.

1st couple lines about how what god does is ineffable making it somehow OK.
2nd bit, notables and unnotables being tortured, killed, or imprisoned because its a form of ritual purification to get into heaven, again intimating that because god orders it its ok, and further saying that those killed by the people god makes kill them are blessed.
3rd referring to people who have experienced near-death experiences as credible factual sources.
last bit, to paraphrase: God did stuff, you cant understand it or his motives.

The first thing is crap and if you dont know it you need to be locked up. The quickest way for you to get yourself removed from society is, ironically, to try to follow any of the old prescribed rituals and standards set forth in the old testament as pleasing to god. Several carry life sentances and i'm sure if you push it and are in the right state you can get the chair and satisfy parts 2 and 3 of your argument or better.
2nd bit. I see. Bdsm is a purifying and holy thing created by god. Too bad the victims didnt know the "safe word."
3rd. Please. I can give more lurid accounts of an afterlife on recreational drugs than a resuccitated heart attack victim or whatever. Doesnt make it any more factual.
4th I understand the motives of the people who wrote the bible, I understand the motives of the church that removed entire testaments, and have rewritten and retranslated it from cover to cover for centuries. I dont understand how you dont understand that.

You haven't debunked anything.
1. What makes it crap?
2. You're restating what I have.
3. You're talking about drugs. I mentioned "clinically dead".
4. Which church? The Catholic church? The Catholic church is different from the original churches around the Mediterranean. And the Catholic church is obviously different from the Jewish people as they have temples, not a church.

The Catholic church cannot instantly said to be the end-all-be-all on the topic of God. They did not rewrite the original texts, but they did translate it into their OWN language, Latin. They didn't even allow for the first English translations in Europe, as they had they very man who got made an English translation killed. I don't understand? lol

 

[Nicolette]

Its a sin, its as simple as that. The bible does point that out with a large number of things we do. Yes, lust is a sin too. Sex outside of marriage is a sin also.

We are all sinners and subject too burn in the lake of fire forever. But God sent his son, Jesus Christ too die on the cross for our sins. We do not have too suffer the fate of the Lake of Fire. We can be saved and live forever with Lord Jesus. All you have too do is accept him and repent from your sins. Repenting seems hard especially if you are addicted too something you feel has a big hold on you. I for one repented from swearing and watching porn movies. It is possible. Just give into the Lord with all of your heart and believe that he is risen and confess with your mouth that he is Lord.

Then you will see a big change in your life, I promise you that. A good site too visit is Raptureready.com. If you do not belive in the Rapture or a Pre-Tribulation Rapture this is still a good site too visit.

I'm sorry for posting this but I felt it needed too be said with a topic as hot as this. I won't step in any futher and bow out. But many need too consider it. I fear time is running out and the true dark days are almost upon us. If you want too know what I mean visit Rapture Ready.

I have rapture tracts from 1977 about how the soviet union is going to nuke the USA as foretold in revelations and bring about the rapture.
I have them from numerous periods in the past 30 years as well, all with some new spin or angle on how everyone needs to prepare. Plenty of people have died waiting, so at least you wont be the first.