Stouter said:
WHM has more def than your average melee i think :-X
WHM has more def than your average melee i think :-X
Stouter said:
Okay, 4 hits, you made your awesome point :roll:
There is no sense arguing with a brick wall.
If you sub RDM stoneskin and phalanx will deflect perhaps 1 and a half hits. And that's my phalanx with capped enhancing thanks to WHM, not a usual high lvled skill for BLMs. You'll have to be constantly burning MP and take up time(for a BLM, time = MP) to keep it up. The most useful defense for the BLM is to not be near the mob, and when the mob is gravitied it gives the tank another voke possibly to regain hate. Rangers have much more survivability even right next to the mob. And at 74 they get utsusemi Ni! Also note the low vitality if BLM and many of the -vitality pieces of equipment standard for BLM especially endgame.
As well BLM have to conserve MP for managing it until the end of the exp chain. Rangers have never had any restriction like that. They can save barrage and perhaps TP but they will be able to constantly be able to pump arrows into the mob as always. Not sure how the update will change things but also Rangers was an up front fighter so pulling hate didn't deprive other melees of TP. Unfortunately this update might simply reinforce that idea that rangers should only party with other rangers. They still might potentially be the strongest fighters but now pulling hate might make other melees alongside them damn near useless let alone the possibility for a thief.
As well BLM have to conserve MP for managing it until the end of the exp chain. Rangers have never had any restriction like that. They can save barrage and perhaps TP but they will be able to constantly be able to pump arrows into the mob as always. Not sure how the update will change things but also Rangers was an up front fighter so pulling hate didn't deprive other melees of TP. Unfortunately this update might simply reinforce that idea that rangers should only party with other rangers. They still might potentially be the strongest fighters but now pulling hate might make other melees alongside them damn near useless let alone the possibility for a thief.
Yes, BLMs can sub NIN, or use defensive spells from WHM or RDM sub. But none of those solutions are as effective as RNG's NIN sub. A few reasons:
First off, BLM/NIN just plain doesn't work in an exp setup. Less MP and slightly less INT, just for survivability? Don't think so. Plus, BLMs have lower Evasion (I think) and lower AGI than RNGs, so they dodge less. BLMs have several other, much better sub choices than NIN. For RNGs, there aren't many other subs they can use except SAM and maybe WAR (Berserk boosts ranged attack too, I think), and I think most RNGs used NIN sub for dual-weild archer's/hawker's knives (correct me if I'm wrong).
As for using Blink/Stoneskin/Phalanx, all those spells have rather long casting times and cost MP to constantly keep up. Plus, the BLM will have to be spamming spells to stay alive, and can't keep spamming spells (RNGs could just use Utsu whenever the timer was up and go back to shooting, if they didn't mind having a ton of hate). BLMs will quickly run out of MP if they have to keep using those spells constantly.
First off, BLM/NIN just plain doesn't work in an exp setup. Less MP and slightly less INT, just for survivability? Don't think so. Plus, BLMs have lower Evasion (I think) and lower AGI than RNGs, so they dodge less. BLMs have several other, much better sub choices than NIN. For RNGs, there aren't many other subs they can use except SAM and maybe WAR (Berserk boosts ranged attack too, I think), and I think most RNGs used NIN sub for dual-weild archer's/hawker's knives (correct me if I'm wrong).
As for using Blink/Stoneskin/Phalanx, all those spells have rather long casting times and cost MP to constantly keep up. Plus, the BLM will have to be spamming spells to stay alive, and can't keep spamming spells (RNGs could just use Utsu whenever the timer was up and go back to shooting, if they didn't mind having a ton of hate). BLMs will quickly run out of MP if they have to keep using those spells constantly.
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Nin is just a baaaaaad sub for Blm. You would get the Nin tools, a slight Int up and....that's it. Rng can sub nin and it actually has advantages. Blink and stoneskin in no way = utsu. Blink stops like 1 in 3 and you only get 2 shadows. Not to mention that Blink and stoneskin only last so long whether you get hit or not. They barely last a fight....
wow, it will never stop
lol, I guess 2,200 DD on WS from RNG on an IT mob is just way too nerfed. The good rangers have already overcome, the lazy ones who think they should be the only job stacked in a party are still whining. Get over yourselves already. RNG is still a primo job. I think alot of RNG's are sore cause they know they won't be worshipped like they were before cause now they have realistic limitations. Just a question, do the rangers posting on here think that there should be any drawback to the job at all? Do they not think they were insanely overpowered before the update?
fyi, that 2200 damage was done by my friend Athilorian at level 73 on an IT Dhalmel. He said he had just purchased like +9 or so in strength rings to compensate for the update. I'm hearing RNG's actually claiming higher DD since the update
lol, I guess 2,200 DD on WS from RNG on an IT mob is just way too nerfed. The good rangers have already overcome, the lazy ones who think they should be the only job stacked in a party are still whining. Get over yourselves already. RNG is still a primo job. I think alot of RNG's are sore cause they know they won't be worshipped like they were before cause now they have realistic limitations. Just a question, do the rangers posting on here think that there should be any drawback to the job at all? Do they not think they were insanely overpowered before the update?
fyi, that 2200 damage was done by my friend Athilorian at level 73 on an IT Dhalmel. He said he had just purchased like +9 or so in strength rings to compensate for the update. I'm hearing RNG's actually claiming higher DD since the update
Nin sub would have been a possibility if not for the elemental staves at 51. When a one handed weapon is clearly the best there's no use for the dual wield. Besides jobs like WAR who do heavy tanking(and usually dual wield axe) there is rarely a time people wouild sub nin without using the dual wield. Perhaps a level 24-50 BLM(taru so MP is not a big issue) could sub nin and dual wield wands, but I'm somewhat skeptical.
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FYI that dhamel was berserking therefore lowering its defense and also at level 73 there are no IT dhamels unless they changed something with the patch. I don't think any rangers thought we were insanely overpowered. As I have stated many times in exp. parties most melee can keep up with rangers in damage and also could provide other abilities to the party i.e. sata or drks spells. I think a majority of the talk about the 'nerf' was about the endgame ranger on gods and hnms. In fact during my time in Onzozo on Couerls I preferred a Drk over another Rng for absorb-agi so I could actually hit the damn things. What I have come to find out about reading lots of posts on this subject is that there was a misconception about Rng compared to other jobs and that is what warranted the invites over other melee jobs. A lot of opinions on how the job was or was not affected by non Ranger people also. I guess everyone is entitled to there opinion whether right or wrong.
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Dhalmals do berserk so they often get hit for high numbers. I doubt the +str rings were the only reason your friend hit so hard.
Its funny how this thread was started by a ranger. "You nerfed me because I was the highest damage, now nerf black mage cuz they took my spot..." ? Really, this thread is about rangers needing some outlet because they lost their special spot on top. Get over it. I just recently talked to a friend who plays in a Japanese linkshell and he said the nerf didn't even affect them. Why? Because unlike a majority of the NA linkshells, they do not rely solely on rangers. They... *gulp* ... keep it relatively balanced and not one job is their entire strategy.
I also doubt the validity of the picture. Although I am not sure its impossible; however, to keep a chain going for roughly an hour with only 4 people barring any mistakes and resists is not really likely. The picture can also be misleading as well. For instance, they could have been killing all EM or T mobs up till that last chain then killed one IT.
Its funny how this thread was started by a ranger. "You nerfed me because I was the highest damage, now nerf black mage cuz they took my spot..." ? Really, this thread is about rangers needing some outlet because they lost their special spot on top. Get over it. I just recently talked to a friend who plays in a Japanese linkshell and he said the nerf didn't even affect them. Why? Because unlike a majority of the NA linkshells, they do not rely solely on rangers. They... *gulp* ... keep it relatively balanced and not one job is their entire strategy.
I also doubt the validity of the picture. Although I am not sure its impossible; however, to keep a chain going for roughly an hour with only 4 people barring any mistakes and resists is not really likely. The picture can also be misleading as well. For instance, they could have been killing all EM or T mobs up till that last chain then killed one IT.
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Lavi...
I fail to see where Legulas said the following:
"You nerfed me because I was the highest damage, now nerf black mage cuz they took my spot..."
Don't get so scared. I am dissappointed they changed the Rng job as much as they did but I will not bitch to nerf Blm. What they need to do is make other jobs more useful in situations such as Kirin. As far as exp. parties go 4 war/nin a bard and rdm could chain just as well as 4 Rng - just ask Ols. Its non-Ranger misconceptions that are fueling all this talk. Regarding your Japanese friend and how it did not affect there shell - I would assume it is because they were just as balanced in Blm as they were in Rng - not so much Rng->Drg.
I fail to see where Legulas said the following:
"You nerfed me because I was the highest damage, now nerf black mage cuz they took my spot..."
Don't get so scared. I am dissappointed they changed the Rng job as much as they did but I will not bitch to nerf Blm. What they need to do is make other jobs more useful in situations such as Kirin. As far as exp. parties go 4 war/nin a bard and rdm could chain just as well as 4 Rng - just ask Ols. Its non-Ranger misconceptions that are fueling all this talk. Regarding your Japanese friend and how it did not affect there shell - I would assume it is because they were just as balanced in Blm as they were in Rng - not so much Rng->Drg.
Foofighter said:
Preupdate, one of the most popular party setups for most statics was a RNG heavy exp party(I'm talking in parties from 65 on up). No doubt about the fact that an unbalanced RNG party could be very very successful and chain very high. You don't really see parties stacked with 3 DRK's, SAM's or WAR's. It is also one of the most popular end game jobs in the game, mostly because of the concept that it was one of the only "useful" jobs. There was no misconception about RNG, every update SE did(up until this point) benifited RNG's in added gear or added job traits that made RNG even more ubber powerful. The fact that they apparently were the only productive job against Gods just shows how much of a monster SE had created. Regardless of wether you agree or disagree on the "gimp"/"nerf", I don't really think you can honestly feel shocked at most base melees lack of sympathy for the ubber RNG.
I have spent plenty of time listening to RNG's pat themselves on the back and condescending to others about how they are the superstar. Every RNG I've talked to online, except 1 has basically said the update isn't nearly as bad as many make it out to be. Yes there are more misses, yes damage can vary with RNG, yes you might have to use restraint. Has the job been ruined? Hell no! Maybe for people who just wanted to be "OMFG I'm so awesome" RNG, by clicking there /ra <t> macro at will.
As for the Dhalmel, just relaying what I was told, he said IT and I'm inclined to believe as he is a very level headed individual, Berserk may have alot to do with it.
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My ranger is 75 so I don't know how the update affected experience parties outside of sky. All of my Ranger friends endgame are dissappointed with the update - it killed us. What I do know for a fact is that Rng and Blm were the only 2 useful DD jobs in fighting mobs that needed to be kited i.e. Kirin. Now there is only 1 useful DD job and that is Blm. "Where is the balance" I only know endgame stuff now so that is all I am referring to. Wouldn't it have been better to make Drg, Sam, Drk or whatever more useful than hurting all the 75 Rng. So know I am almost useless to my shell now as a Rng. What I would have loved to see was some of my friends who are Drg or Drk get the opportunity to help out more.
But, I am a condescending prick because I am a Ranger so take all I say with a grain of salt.
But, I am a condescending prick because I am a Ranger so take all I say with a grain of salt.
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Foofighter said:
Legalus said:
Why do you think he posted this pic with that title? Was it a warning? Is it even coincidental that he is a ranger? Don't be so naive.Legalus said:
Ols is also 75 experiencing on VT mobs where accuracy is not a huge issue, eatting mithkabobs, and a bard for +str and att songs. However; I don't ever recalling seeing an all war cannon party before 73. Rangers do it all the time. And to make things more clear, before the nerf Ithenas mentioned Black mages were weak. They did 4k damage to Kirin and was a far cry from the 12k damage a ranger was doing. Black mages aren't as huge a DD as people make them to be. Its simple to see why black mages deal less damage. Unlike the ranger, who can just throw money at Kirin and he will die, a black mage needs to be more strategic. Kirin needs to be stationary for long spells or to cast lower level/shorter cast time spells. Black mage also has significant down time as well. Hence the huge difference in damage.
Also upon looking at the picture again, I noticed the mob drops a cluster and not a crystal. What type of mob is it? Elemental? That might also have a huge reason for the chains since Elementals are weak to magic. I am not familiar with sea and I can only guess but in my experience with sky chains are always limited. At 75 damage and accuracy are not a huge issue in sustaining a chain. The reason most chains are limited is due to the lack of mobs. However, to get to chain 68 requires a large supply of mobs that respawn fast. Really for this to work mobs must be on a less than a 5 min timer or have a huge supply of non agroing/linking mobs. As I can only speculate and from all the other experience spots I have tried, I still doubt the actually validity of this picture.
Sethala said:
RNGs can also sub WAR/SAM/etc instead of NIN, but they choose NIN just for survivability, giving up better stats from WAR/SAM.
And btw, BLMs and RNGs both have the same rating in eva.
My RNG evasion is 200 at lvl 75, while my NIN and THF eva is higher then that at lvl 60....
And no, that screenshot isn't fake, it is the real deal.
Same evasion, vastly different agilities?
Same defense? Vastly different HPs and Vits?
Parry skill vs no parry skill.
Utsusemi, Agility boost and dual wield vs. utsusemi, removal of all utility spells and MP penalty. In the case of comparison 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2.
Same defense? Vastly different HPs and Vits?
Parry skill vs no parry skill.
Utsusemi, Agility boost and dual wield vs. utsusemi, removal of all utility spells and MP penalty. In the case of comparison 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2.
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Lavi, I ask you this?
Who is gonna damage Kirin now?
And why don't you ask Legalus what his intent of that post was. I am not as judgemental as you and definately not naive.
I have seen all war/nin parties before 73 and if there are enough mobs they will chain them. In fact I hope to get in a few of these now that I am gonna level war higher. In fact I think just about any group of good DD can chain just as well as rng were doing. Why don't you go give it a try?
Who is gonna damage Kirin now?
And why don't you ask Legalus what his intent of that post was. I am not as judgemental as you and definately not naive.
I have seen all war/nin parties before 73 and if there are enough mobs they will chain them. In fact I hope to get in a few of these now that I am gonna level war higher. In fact I think just about any group of good DD can chain just as well as rng were doing. Why don't you go give it a try?
Can rangers not still outdamage other melee(potentially BLM too) on Kirin? By virtue of that fact that they can hit him at all and melee still can't do anything. Weakened maybe but still able to hit a moving mob. BLM already are horribly resisted by Kirin. All this update seems to say to me is we need more RNG and BLM to get the job done. Unfortunately it's caused so many Rng to quit...
Also unfortunately there's not much motivation for a BLM... they get a mere fraction out of sky as RNG do.
Also unfortunately there's not much motivation for a BLM... they get a mere fraction out of sky as RNG do.