Boy, 11, accused of killing father's pregnant girlfriend

Halifirien · Feb 23, 2009

No harm, no foul. I should've stuck to one kitchen utensil to keep it consistent.

Spalko · Feb 23, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

hope this guy didnt teach that kid about guns.

I believe the father is almost responsible for this murder. I dont know where he put the gun, but he certainly put it so that the kid can get it.

Makelith · Feb 23, 2009

Spalko said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

hope this guy didnt teach that kid about guns.

I believe the father is almost responsible for this murder. I dont know where he put the gun, but he certainly put it so that the kid can get it.

Its a gun designed for kids, so it was probably his gun. I do enjoy my given right to use firearms in a responsible manner, and i have for a very long time, roughly the same age as the boy. You can't group everyone together in this, because for every 100 responsible gun-toting kids, you get one that goes and does this. There is no news story saying that 4000 gun owning kids didn't shoot anyone today.

Another very important thing that was brought up that is still being looked over is:

Marajade said:
Also, I think people aren't quite up to speed on what this all means.

"Charged as an Adult" is not "Sentenced as an adult"
Charged means that if it sticks, will go on his actual record, and not the juvinile record that gets hidden away when you turn 18. They're not going to throw him in some prison somewhere when he's 11 for the rest of time.

I've said it a thousand times on QCDN. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. The guns sure help, but if the desire to kill someone is strong enough to actually do it, its going to happen weather or not a gun is around.

I blame my keyboard if there are any spelling/grammar errors in this post.

Shyrra · Feb 23, 2009

I laugh that in this thread alone there's been two glaring examples of people shedding the blame off the father, lol. "HE MUST HAVE PLAYED VIDEO GAMES!!!" + "2ND AMENDMENT !!!1O1O11OLIOLIOLIOLIOOOOO"

How is it we're blaming the right to bear arms and violence in video games for this, instead of blaming the father for A. not teaching his child the repercussions of shooting people, (this makes me LOL.) and B. that his new girlfriend isn't replacing the child's mother.

Also the "If the US didn't have the right to bear arms, this wouldn't have happened!" argument is irrelevant. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean there wouldn't have still been a gun in the house.

Morcheeba · Feb 23, 2009

Shyrra said:
I laugh that in this thread alone there's been two glaring examples of people shedding the blame off the father, lol. "HE MUST HAVE PLAYED VIDEO GAMES!!!" + "2ND AMENDMENT !!!1O1O11OLIOLIOLIOLIOOOOO"

How is it we're blaming the right to bear arms and violence in video games for this, instead of blaming the father for A. not teaching his child the repercussions of shooting people, (this makes me LOL.) and B. that his new girlfriend isn't replacing the child's mother.

Also the "If the US didn't have the right to bear arms, this wouldn't have happened!" argument is irrelevant. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean there wouldn't have still been a gun in the house.

....

A: how do any of you know the father DIDN'T teach his boy all the pertinent lessons involved with handling a GUN. Instead the boy did what the boy wanted to do? Kids are spiteful, kids are kids, kids are IRRESPONSIBLE and IMMATURE. You wouldn't allow a kid to have sex, not at 11, you may teach him/her knowing eventually they're going to need the education, but you wouldn't commend them for learning the in's and out's (no pun intended) nor would you approve of them having sex at that age.
You wouldn't allow a kid to get their drivers license and trust them with a 3000lb vehicle EVEN if they were taught how to properly operate one and ALL the disciplinary actions if they were to mess up. Why? Probably because no person in their right mind would think it a GOOD idea for a child to operate such a DANGEROUS machine. At 3000lbs a car is a massive killing weapon.

B: If the "right to bare arms" were abolished this would be LESS LIKELY to happen. That's what I said anyway. I don't see how a farm kid might get his hands on a gun if his father wasn't allowed to keep one, or his neighbour, or anyone else.

Makelith said:
You can't group everyone together in this, because for every 100 responsible gun-toting kids, you get one that goes and does this. There is no news story saying that 4000 gun owning kids didn't shoot anyone today.

You're right. However, if the one (actually 2) lives lost is worth the 99 kids that haven't shot someone or have yet to shoot someone either accidentally or purposely then I say this a great fact, otherwise I can't see the value.

Shyrra · Feb 23, 2009

Morcheeba said:
....

A: how do any of you know the father DIDN'T teach his boy all the pertinent lessons involved with handling a GUN. Instead the boy did what the boy wanted to do? Kids are spiteful, kids are kids, kids are IRRESPONSIBLE and IMMATURE. You wouldn't allow a kid to have sex, not at 11, you may teach him/her knowing eventually they're going to need the education, but you wouldn't commend them for learning the in's and out's (no pun intended) nor would you approve of them having sex at that age.
You wouldn't allow a kid to get their drivers license and trust them with a 300lb vehicle EVEN if they were taught how to properly operate one and ALL the disciplinary actions if they were to mess up. Why? Probably because no person in their right mind would think it a GOOD idea for a child to operate such a DANGEROUS machine. At 3000lbs a car is a massive killing weapon.

First, this argument goes both ways lol. How do you know he -did- teach this shit to his kid? If the dad actually went through and discussed everything and was very clear what would happen, then you chalk it up to weird shit happens, lol. It's a little morbid, but it's true enough, shit happens.

B: If the "right to bare arms" were abolished this would be LESS LIKELY to happen. That's what I said anyway. I don't see how a farm kid might get his hands on a gun if his father wasn't allowed to keep one, or his neighbour, or anyone else.

Just like it's illegal to be in possession of marijuana, yet it takes little to no effort to get a hook up, lol.

Makelith · Feb 23, 2009

Morcheeba said:
....

A: how do any of you know the father DIDN'T teach his boy all the pertinent lessons involved with handling a GUN. Instead the boy did what the boy wanted to do? Kids are spiteful, kids are kids, kids are IRRESPONSIBLE and IMMATURE. You wouldn't allow a kid to have sex, not at 11, you may teach him/her knowing eventually they're going to need the education, but you wouldn't commend them for learning the in's and out's (no pun intended) nor would you approve of them having sex at that age.
You wouldn't allow a kid to get their drivers license and trust them with a 300lb vehicle EVEN if they were taught how to properly operate one and ALL the disciplinary actions if they were to mess up. Why? Probably because no person in their right mind would think it a GOOD idea for a child to operate such a DANGEROUS machine. At 3000lbs a car is a massive killing weapon.

B: If the "right to bare arms" were abolished this would be LESS LIKELY to happen. That's what I said anyway. I don't see how a farm kid might get his hands on a gun if his father wasn't allowed to keep one, or his neighbour, or anyone else.

A. He didn't teach him well enough then. My dad let me drive the car before i could reach the pedals. I would just do the steering. Let's abolish cars then while you're at it, since they are a massive killing weapon. Education is the key to each one of your examples.

B. They lived on a farm. I'm gonna say that they would be in a lot more trouble if the father *didn't* have a gun.

Morcheeba · Feb 23, 2009

Makelith said:
A. He didn't teach him well enough then. My dad let me drive the car before i could reach the pedals. I would just do the steering. Let's abolish cars then while you're at it, since they are a massive killing weapon. Education is the key to each one of your examples.

B. They lived on a farm. I'm gonna say that they would be in a lot more trouble if the father *didn't* have a gun.

I lived on a farm none of my family had a gun.

How can you say "He didn't teach him well enough then."?
How do you know? How do you know that kid wasn't just pissed off? How do you the father didn't spend 20+ hours of quality time with his boy in the woods teaching him how to properly use a firearm? How do you know that kid didn't just say "fuck you bitch you ain't my momma"?

There's an age appropriate law in place that dictates when a teenager can apply for a beginners license and start the process to get a full license which here, takes a couple years due to graduated licensing. I don't know how it works there or if it differs state to state. That law being in place allows the teens some time for their maturity and sense of responsibility to kick in. Doesn't happen for all. Some people never grow up. Least there's SOME kind of regulations.

There being guns specifically designed for a childs use tells me there either aren't ENOUGH regulations in place or your country is in a very confused and possibly irreparable state of concern.

Makelith · Feb 23, 2009

The fact that this happened at all means that it wasn't enough, but like Shyrra said, how do you even know he did it at all? When something like this happens, you can't assume he did it, but you can easily tell that it didn't happen enough.

I have a very hard time believing there wasn't a gun on the farm you grew up on. Unless its a commercial farm near a city. My mom always tells me stories about how she had to put down animals that got hurt that couldn't get better, or how she had to shoot wolves and shit.

Kerowynn · Feb 23, 2009

Morcheeba said:
I lived on a farm none of my family had a gun.

I take it you didn't have coyotes or big cats on your farm eating your livestock then. Many farms here do have them and they can be very big issues. That's in addition to bears that are found in many areas here as well. Look at what a mountain lion does to a horse that's been tied up and then tell me you don't need a gun in that area lol.

Morcheeba · Feb 23, 2009

Makelith said:
The fact that this happened at all means that it wasn't enough, but like Shyrra said, how do you even know he did it at all? When something like this happens, you can't assume he did it, but you can easily tell that it didn't happen enough.

I have a very hard time believing there wasn't a gun on the farm you grew up on. Unless its a commercial farm near a city. My mom always tells me stories about how she had to put down animals that got hurt that couldn't get better, or how she had to shoot wolves and shit.

We had guard dogs that defended against the few wolves that seldomly ventured onto our farm. Also, it wasn't a livestock farm as not all farms ARE livestock. We had 2 horses and some chickens. I would watch my papa cut the heads of the chickens with an axe. I wasn't even allowed into the pen while he was doing this.

EDIT: Our largest issue was rodents.

Stine · Feb 23, 2009

There's really no way to know what type of gun education the father gave the boy but I'm willing to bet that it wasn't enough since the incident happened. I agree with what others said that the father should be held responsible for something in this matter considering the child had access to the gun when his father wasn't around.

Removing the right to own guns would reduce gun violence but it would take a lot to take away guns from the citizens of the USA. Being that it is in the Constitution and has been a big part of our history even before the country existed. Like I said before, I think that there should be greater restrictions on gun ownership but of course that wouldn't stop gun violence. What it really boils down to is that some people have to ruin the right for the responsible ones.

I was raised on a farm which mostly focused on chicken houses but we also had horses, cows, sheep, pigs, and a junkyard. Every male in my family plus my aunt has a gun and knows how to shoot them. How many have killed a human with their gun? Zero. None of them have even shot a human being. They did have to kill chicken hawks, chicken snakes, bobcats, and wild dogs that were attacking their animals. I think that they are good examples of what a good gun education can do. We had a few guard dogs but most of them "disappeared" never to be found.

My grandparents' house is right across from the junkyard. My grandfather's had people come bang on his door at the middle of the night and has had items stolen out of the junkyard. He caught some robbers one morning and shot out in the air to scare them and then shot out their truck's tire instead of shooting them while my grandmother called the police. The crocks (who were robbing several other homes in the area) ended up getting caught by the police because they had to abandon their vehicle. I feel better knowing that my grandfather has a gun in order to protect himself. People stealing from the junkyard has been so bad that he had to hire someone to watch it at night.

Another story in the news today talking about a man using a gun to protect himself from a robber who stabbed him with a knife.

Spoiler:

Morwen · Feb 23, 2009

Okay, lets all settle the hell down, eh? >_> I know this is pretty touchy when you're talking about an 11 year old commiting murder and being convicted as an adult but let's not get so passionate that we start in-fighting when we're all basically in agreement.

My opinion incoming:

The father should be charged with Negligent Homicide. All of the "safe practice" lessons that he may or may not have lead his son through does not hide the fact that this man irresponsibly stored fire arms in the household. They should have been locked up in a proper gun cabinet, which is a law in most states in the US. The key should have been hidden or on the father at all times, which is in line with the law that most states adhere to.

Should he be tried as an adult? Yes. This should absolutely go in his permanent record, not his "juvenille" record, which is sometimes expunged when you hit legal adulthood. It should absolutely be kept on his record for the rest of his life. Life in prison? I'm not so sure. Heavy counselling? Hell yes. Juvenille detainment center? You bet your ass. 11 years old is far beyond the point where the brain can differentiate between "Right" and "Wrong". Obviously, murder is wrong. Any child knows that. That's why there are "bad guys" and "good guys". As far as things like the death penalty go... He's 11. This is why we're functioning, non-criminal members of society and not on the other side of the fence with him. I cannot justify setting a child on death row until he's of-age and putting the needle in him. I just can't. This is something that can honestly be fixed, it's early enough.

Obviously there are other factors at work here. Why would he even be this angry? Only time, trial, patience and a lot of psychiatrists will tell. It has been said and proven that from the beginning of puberty to about the age of 18-19 years old, we are labeled as Sociopaths and I think this shines brightly as an example of that testament.

Linhjah · Feb 23, 2009

Morwen said:
Okay, lets all settle the hell down, eh? >_> I know this is pretty touchy when you're talking about an 11 year old commiting murder and being convicted as an adult but let's not get so passionate that we start in-fighting when we're all basically in agreement.

My opinion incoming:

The father should be charged with Negligent Homicide. All of the "safe practice" lessons that he may or may not have lead his son through does not hide the fact that this man irresponsibly stored fire arms in the household. They should have been locked up in a proper gun cabinet, which is a law in most states in the US. The key should have been hidden or on the father at all times, which is in line with the law that most states adhere to.

Should he be tried as an adult? Yes. This should absolutely go in his permanent record, not his "juvenille" record, which is sometimes expunged when you hit legal adulthood. It should absolutely be kept on his record for the rest of his life. Life in prison? I'm not so sure. Heavy counselling? Hell yes. Juvenille detainment center? You bet your ass. 11 years old is far beyond the point where the brain can differentiate between "Right" and "Wrong". Obviously, murder is wrong. Any child knows that. That's why there are "bad guys" and "good guys". As far as things like the death penalty go... He's 11. This is why we're functioning, non-criminal members of society and not on the other side of the fence with him. I cannot justify setting a child on death row until he's of-age and putting the needle in him. I just can't. This is something that can honestly be fixed, it's early enough.

Obviously there are other factors at work here. Why would he even be this angry? Only time, trial, patience and a lot of psychiatrists will tell. It has been said and proven that from the beginning of puberty to about the age of 18-19 years old, we are labeled as Sociopaths and I think this shines brightly as an example of that testament.

I agree with this post in its entirety. How much time the father did or did not spend educating his son cannot be accurately determined. It is obvious he didn't store the gun appropriately or the child wouldn't have been able to use it to in the manner he did. I'm sure the guy is going through hell right now, but that doesn't change the fact he needs to be accountable for his actions just as his son does.

The child must be tried as an adult. As I understand, it was a deliberate, malicious act. To have it be part of his juvenile record would be a travesty to the life and memory of the two he killed. But, no, the death penalty or even life in prison would not be appropriate punishment for a child. I have yet to meet an 11 year old who could understand the consequences of his actions the same way an adult would.

bigbroon · Feb 23, 2009

I agree with some things, and disagree with other things fundamentally. Who said what? I don't remember, but I'll state what I think anyway, as my opinion may not have come across correctly.

I do NOT believe he should be tried as an adult. Why? He is a child.

I DO believe this should be on his permanent record, not wiped when he "becomes" an adult. This may seem like a contradiction to my prior statement, but it's not. I understand that, if he were charged as a child, this would probably not stay with him on record for the rest of his life. That calls for child prosecution laws to be changed, not for children to be prosecuted as adults. So to some up this part of my opinion, the child should be tried as a child, with the murder of both woman and child on his record forever - something which is probably impossible in US law at the present moment. (assuming he is guilty.) Just because it's impossible, however, doesn't make the alternatives right.

I'm not entirely sure how much blame you can put on the father really. You can't have it both ways, with "guns are ok if you're trained properly" etc etc, and then say "A child's gun (MADE FOR CHILDREN) should be kept in a cabinet under lock and key." When would this gun be brought out? Special occasions? lol.

My bottom line: If you keep a gun in your house, despite the fact it's your "given right," as much as it might make you feel safe, you're asking for trouble.

Ah yes, and to whoever said "let's ban cars while we're at it?" Slight difference between an automobile used to transport human beings and a piece of metal used to maim/kill people/animals.

Makelith · Feb 23, 2009

bigbroon said:
Ah yes, and to whoever said "let's ban cars while we're at it?" Slight difference between an automobile used to transport human beings and a piece of metal used to maim/kill people/animals.

I know, and that's the point. It was brought up that a car is just a 3000lb. killing machine, so i said we should ban those too, because if you want to you can kill anyone with nearly anything. This isn't the 1800's anymore. Recreational guns haven't been made to kill people in a long time.

Stine · Feb 23, 2009

If anyone thinks that I was being hostile I apologize. It was not my intention. Overall I agree with what Morwen posted. We don't and won't know the whole story so it is hard for us to judge it.

bigbroon said:
I'm not entirely sure how much blame you can put on the father really. You can't have it both ways, with "guns are ok if you're trained properly" etc etc, and then say "A child's gun (MADE FOR CHILDREN) should be kept in a cabinet under lock and key." When would this gun be brought out? Special occasions? lol.

When I said that guns should be locked up by the parent I meant that the child should only be in possession of the gun while being supervised by a parent or other guardian.

bigbroon · Feb 23, 2009

Makelith said:
I know, and that's the point. It was brought up that a car is just a 3000lb. killing machine, so i said we should ban those too, because if you want to you can kill anyone with nearly anything. This isn't the 1800's anymore. Recreational guns haven't been made to kill people in a long time.

There's still a big difference though. Yes, you can turn pretty much anything into a killing machine, but you can't turn a gun into anything *other* than a killing machine. Well, I'm sure someone could find a kinky use for one, and probably has (cue picture of a rifle jammed in a vag). The point I'm trying to make is that, while most items can be turned from their original use into something dangerous, guns sole use is a weapon, to injure or kill. Other than the police, and even they push it, I fail to see much - if any - good that comes from guns.

bigbroon · Feb 23, 2009

Makelith said:
I know, and that's the point. It was brought up that a car is just a 3000lb. killing machine, so i said we should ban those too, because if you want to you can kill anyone with nearly anything. This isn't the 1800's anymore. Recreational guns haven't been made to kill people in a long time.

Missed this bit, and wasn't sure if you can quote and edit, iFail.

On topic: Does a gun made for children not fit into the bracket of a recreational gun? I know 0 about guns by the way, serious question.

Zaltana · Feb 23, 2009

the style/make of the gun doesn't matter. if i shoot you with a firearm you most likely will die.

i got into this "he could have used a knife" argument with a drunken gun lover at work today. lets examine the facts:

YES: the boy could have just used a knife to kill this woman. but lets think about this for a moment. Given that fact why did he choose the gun. Knives are not usually locked up because using them to kill someone isn't their primary function. its not the reason knives are made. the boy could have just as easily used a hammer or any other item that's already been mentioned. why didn't he pick any of those.

Opinion: I believe that this falls into the category that the boy wanted to kill this woman, IE: intent and knew what he was doing, and choose the medium that is designed strictly for that purpose. As i mentioned before guns are engraved into American society. And sometimes i feel like we're born with this subconscious knowledge. Knives, in the context that we are using them here, aren't made for killing, cars are not made for killing, hammers and other potentially lethal tools are not made for killing. Even though they will serve such a purpose if the USER wanted to.

Guns are power designed for causing harm to another. BUT like all power it is only as good or as bad as the person using that power. I agree that some of the blame can be directed to the father, but the fault as i can see it lies with this kid.

Boy, 11, accused of killing father's pregnant girlfriend

One nation under Doom

Limit Breaker

Tom's Favorite Mod

Maho

Buaidh no Bàs

Maho

Tom's Favorite Mod

Buaidh no Bàs

Tom's Favorite Mod

Pesterer of the Garka

Buaidh no Bàs

Mithra in her heart

High Priestess

killjoy :(

Than =/= Then

Tom's Favorite Mod

Mithra in her heart

Than =/= Then

Than =/= Then

WHO DAT!!!!!!