Burn a Quran Day

As much as I hate to admit it, Romper and Raes have a point. They are free to do so, just like we all enjoy the freedom of calling these idiots, idiots. If we start infringing one one group of peoples rights because it's inflammatory and stupid, we would be opening one hell of a can of worms that I, as an American citizen, would rather not open.
 
Gerry said:
I'm fairly sure Nazi shit like this is not covered by Freedom of Speech.
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actaully, it is.


I don't get it, it like people think a guy burning a book, is worse then a guy who would KILL SOMEONE, for burning a book.

I don't agree with it either, its a spit in the face to all muslims, for something a very small group of them did.

But, I would like to ask how many people here wouldn't give two shits if this was a Bible instead of a Quran. (it probably wouldn't have even made the news)
 
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Georgebobbilly said:
do you also protest all the burning that pretty much everyone does? or is it only this thing that an American happens to be doing?
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Thinking outside of the box that the USA isn't the only country out there in the world, I'd have to say that burning a holy book that is sacred to a people and glorifying it, is terrible no matter where in the world. It just shows the true ignorance of the people out there and I pity them.

I understand their freedom to do this but it doesn't mean that they should.
 
I hope none of the people who say this is within their rights turn around and say the "Ground zero" mosque shouldn't be built. Just saying.

But yeah, it's disgusting but completely legal. Just as it is legal for me to hate bigots like these.
 
Acts of terrorism are going to occur Qu'ran burning or no Qu'ran burning. Is it a rather stupid gesture? Absolutely. Might as well burn several copies of the Torah and the Bible as well while they're at it. If you want to deny these half-baked demonstrations, just like denying those morons from Kansas their protests, then the terrorists have already won their war.

**To clarify, although I did argue against the mosque being built near "Ground Zero," I was not arguing against the right to do so. Rather, I am of the opinion that doing so is detrimental to their goal, if their goal is promote peace and harmony. I think they would be better served to take a more subtle approach to "win the hearts and minds" of those who are intolerant towards them. Otherwise, you usually just end up reinforcing whatever negative stereotype the antagonists have towards you.
 
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This is an absolute travesty. Being all but speechless, I'll let Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. speak for me:

"It tells me that goose-stepping morons . . . should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!"​
 
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How sad. It's just one more piece of evidence that ignorance and lack of the basest amount of respect is the rule nowadays and not the exception. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are extremists in every religion, and you can't lump every christian in with the Westboro freaks just like you can't lump every muslim in with the 9/11 bombers. This is just going to create more hate. It's an event that will further drive a wedge on religious tensions that have been already volatile to this point. The only thing this will succeed in doing is alienating people living good lives who mourned the evens of 9/11 as a shame to their religion and their people just as deeply as the rest of us, and who lost just as much and in some cases more. Things like this are the reason why Americans are hated around the world. This is what they think of us - because just like our news likes to fling shit at people and broadcast the live coverage worldwide, this is what they think we are. An ignorant, bullying, over-loud and under-thinking bunch of children with tremendous egos, dangerous weapons, and a gluttonous appetite for resources we use too much of. And if people like the ones running this circus of stupidity are what they're gauging us on, then how can you blame them?

Those who refuse to learn from history... People better wake the fuck up.
 
@TG: Yeah, that's probably what instigated this whole mess. Unsurprisingly.

One thing I've never liked about the statements like "and this is why they hate us", is that they act as the pretense of a justification for some people. After 9/11, there were a wide variety of people who basically said that we had it coming, using much the same logic, and they were for the most part rightfully crucified in the media.

They hate us because we're loud, obnoxious, disrespectful, and unlike most people we don't keep these facts to ourselves, but rather broadcast them around the planet by way of our news services.

That's the logic, right?

Except that it's not really true. Other countries do the exact same things that we do, only more so. France bans the wearing of Muslim garb, Switzerland effectively bans the construction of mosques, Denmark has a newspaper that publishes depictions of Muhammad, etc etc. And while these acts all engendered some sort of response, it's not quite the same as the response that America gets, and there's an easy explanation for that.

They hate us because they're told to hate us.

We make an easy target. We're the most powerful country in the world, we're emblematic of everything that fundamentalist Islam hates, and we do so dearly like to meddle. It doesn't matter if we're meddling with the best of intentions, or whether the justification for our meddling is solid or tenuous; so long as we meddle, it will infuriate those who are already programmed to hate us. We're the biggest supporters of Israel, who are probably the only people more hated by the Middle East than we are. The irony, of course, is that for the most part Israel is hated for winning wars it didn't start, and the inevitable consequences thereof, but it's another nail in the coffin. In a way it's vaguely similar to the way that the true believers in the Soviet system hated us; Here we are, doing everything wrong by their standards, and yet we're wildly successful at it. We're such a convenient scapegoat for all their ills that they'd have to be insane not to use us as a negative focus and indoctrination tool.

Short of us rolling over and showing our collective bellies to the bullies of fundamentalist Islam, rest assured that there's relatively little we can do to make them not hate us. The rational ones, the moderate Muslims, will see a bunch of whackjobs burning books as precisely what it is: A bunch of whackjobs burning books. The extremists can't possibly hate us any more than they already do.

The other aspect of that statement that bothers me is that it seems to act as a method of distinguishing us as superior to them. It's rather condescending really; "Those poor ignorant Muslims, they see the things we broadcast on television and can't help but hate us for acts of propaganda committed by a tiny fraction of our overall population, usually in the face of mass condemnation from the rest of us. We, of course, being an enlightened civilization, do not hate the Muslims, despite acts of heinous violence against us committed by a modest percentage of their overall population."

I reject that view. They're not Pavlovian dogs, conditioned by the system and unable to choose, but rather have chosen to hate us, because it makes their lives a little easier. Things aren't as good as they could be? Blame the Americans. It's easy. It's convenient. It's typically total bullshit, of course, but that doesn't really matter.
 
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In France's defence, they have always been a very secular nation and the ban extended to all overt religious symbols on public property, including crucifixes. Sure some people have used the law as a tool for intolerance, but that was not its intent.

On the other hand, openly attacking one faith and exalting another as the measure of the land makes no sense whatsoever in a country which boasts religious freedom in their constitution or that claims not to favour any when forming legislation.
 
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I did my bit for Draw Mohammad Day to thumb my nose at that idiot making threats against South Park, but I have little patience for book-burners.
 
Raesvelg said:
...The other aspect of that statement that bothers me is that it seems to act as a method of distinguishing us as superior to them. It's rather condescending really; "Those poor ignorant Muslims, they see the things we broadcast on television and can't help but hate us for acts of propaganda committed by a tiny fraction of our overall population, usually in the face of mass condemnation from the rest of us. We, of course, being an enlightened civilization, do not hate the Muslims, despite acts of heinous violence against us committed by a modest percentage of their overall population."

I reject that view. They're not Pavlovian dogs, conditioned by the system and unable to choose, but rather have chosen to hate us, because it makes their lives a little easier. Things aren't as good as they could be? Blame the Americans. It's easy. It's convenient. It's typically total bullshit, of course, but that doesn't really matter.
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This is just an excerpt of the whole, but I wanted to respond to specifically this. I, on the contrary, do not think that saying something like "this is why they hate us" is condescending in the least. This country was established by those seeking tolerance. Religious tolerance to be pinpoint specific. If the images you see regularly - the ones being broadcast 24/7 on your version of CNN or MSNBC are showing a bunch of holy book burning ignoramuses, that is the image that will stick in minds. I accidentally saw a video, while watching the news, of a middle eastern pregnant woman getting shot in the head by religious extremists - executed because she allegedly cheated on her husband prior to his death resulting in the pregnancy. Do I know on a fundamental level that not all people of that religion would shoot a pregnant woman in the head for alleged adultery? Yes, I do. I'm an intelligent person, I have some awareness of the way the world works. But that image of a woman in a burqa being shot in the head with an automatic rifle in the middle of an athletic field will never, ever leave my mind. And yes, right, wrong, or indifferent, that will leave a lasting impression. It wouldn't cause me to treat someone of that religion differently because I know better, but if I knew only what I'd learned of their country from the news (and lets face it, there are people of every culture, including Americans, that only know anything of other countries based on what they may have come across in the news), I would tend toward thinking they were sexist, violent, cruel, and ruthless.

I think we're handy targets because we earned it. We are the most financially privileged nation in the world and we have some of the highest crime rates, are one of the most irreverent and wasteful countries with regard to resources and the environment, and we have, for all the quality education available, some of the most idiotic, narrow-minded people in the world. The majority of Americans don't speak a second language, have a blissful ignorance of world events, and have no manners, common courtesy or respect at home or abroad. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people like that all over the world, but when you boast about your tolerance and your acceptance and your respect for the rest of the world like this country does, this quran burning is a smear on all of us, like it or not.

I love the US. But I love us for the theory, if not practice of what we stand for. I love the fact that if I want to build the next greatest invention, I can, or if I want to work at the bunny ranch, I can, or if I want to be a doctor, I can. I love that if I want to pray to Budda or Jesus or cows or tree spirits, I can and there's someone on the internet I can look up who does too. I love that I've been blessed to meet the finest examples of what we as a people can be - some of the finest human beings I've ever known in my life - and been proud that they were American. I just think that like any family... it looks a lot different from the inside than it does from the outside looking in. And when you live thousands of miles away and the only thing you have to make judgment is the news you hear or the stories you're told... those things color your impressions.
 
I'd considered editing your post down for the sake of convenience and a point-by-point response, but I think I'll let it stand as is and simply reply directly.

In a way, to be brutally honest, you just proved my point. You saw something horrible practiced under a regime of religious extremists, and because you are "an intelligent person" with "some awareness of how the world works" and "know better" you didn't automatically assume that every person living in this anonymous country was a murderous, hateful, intolerant, obsessed, etc etc etc asshole. And, in all seriousness, you are a credit to your society for it. That's how it's supposed to work.

But.

You do not extend the same courtesy to the citizens of that faraway land, who see the consequences of our freedoms on their television screen, albeit carefully filtered, manipulated, and otherwise engineered by the propaganda machine that treats the United States in much the same way that the politicians of the post-Civil War South treated African-Americans. You imply, frankly, that they don't know any better.

That's condescension.

And again, to be brutally honest, this country was not founded by those seeking religious freedom. It was founded by a broad and diverse group of people, some seeking freedom, yes, but most seeking opportunity, and many involuntarily so. You cannot assign one of our freedoms, the freedom of religion, a higher priority than another of our freedoms, the freedom of speech. The freedom, frankly, to spout racist, bigoted, ignorant filth to whoever will listen. You can decry it for what it is, but it is the essence of a free society that we allow it to be said.

You argue, fundamentally, that the United States should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and I won't entirely say that you're wrong. I will say, however, that contrary to what you might hear from our news services, we actually do a pretty damn good job of being just as tolerant and accepting as we like to imagine ourselves as being. We're not perfect, no, but we're a damn sight better than most of the world, even pretty much all of the so-called "Free World". We're better, in many ways, than we make ourselves out to be, because unlike many countries, we've developed a positive glee for painting ourselves in a negative light. We rarely see the good, because as far as most of the news services are concerned, good is boring. "If it bleeds, it leads", as the saying goes, and it's the most awful things that get the highest ratings. In effect, we have an entire industry devoted to making ourselves look as bad as possible, and remarkably enough, we put up with it.

Because, hey, freedom of the press, right?
 
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Then we agree to disagree. If you read my post, I clearly said that people all over the world, Americans included, only have a knowledge of a country or its people from what they hear on the news or have been told. I'm not sure how that's condesension when I'm referring to the entire world, us included. That does not infer, directly or indirectly that every single person of a specific culture is ignorant or sheep or any other colorful adjective you've suggested is coming from my mouth. On the contrary, obviously on the other side of the coin there are people out there, in every culture, that are intelligent, well-informed and knowledgeable and those folks may, as I did, take pause but not hold it against us because they know that we're not all the same.

I just don't like what you're trying to assert I'm saying. You know and I know mob mentality is different than the individual. You and I also know that "propaganda" is a powerful tool, or it wouldn't have been used over many years in our history. Please don't try to suggest that I am some elitist asshole because I'm making a statement that impressions are made from the media we see. Because.... that's a fact, not some veiled dig at people who are not American.
 
By all means. And please, don't think that I'm attacking you as some elitist asshole over this issue, that's not my intent at all.

I simply feel that if you hold yourself to a standard, specifically to not judge a culture solely by the negative aspects that you might see on the news, then you should hold others to the same standard, regardless of their origin or situation. To understand and accept their ignorance serves no one. The failing here is not in you, nor even in the system, but in those who simply accept what they are told. Who hate who they are told to hate, and yes, those people exist the world around, more's the pity.
 
Raesvelg said:
I simply feel that if you hold yourself to a standard, specifically to not judge a culture solely by the negative aspects that you might see on the news, then you should hold others to the same standard, regardless of their origin or situation. To understand and accept their ignorance serves no one. The failing here is not in you, nor even in the system, but in those who simply accept what they are told. Who hate who they are told to hate, and yes, those people exist the world around, more's the pity.
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I don't know, I hold myself to an awful high standard, but then I'm pretty hard on myself. But I understand your point. Would be nice if everyone took the time to learn something about the rest of the world and it became the rule, not the exception. I guess that while I wish there wasn't so much ignorance in the world, I'm fully operating on the understanding that there will always be ignorance and that there will always be a lack of understanding between cultures. I take it into account because it's the way it is. I don't excuse it, I think it's sad, but I think that's the way it will always be. And media exploits that regularly.
 
What’s the percentage of US citizens with passports? I think I read some where it is less than 20%. I am getting ready to visit my 7th country this year (one of which was a deployment the others are for personal understanding and experience). I can honestly say that through my travels and being immersed in other cultures, I have been enlightened. I think you can read and learn a lot about other cultures through books and other sources of education, but it pales in comparison to actually being able to live the human experience of the people who actually live there. I think if more people would break away from the fear of the outside world the media projects, and see for themselves the actual world they live in, we would have more empathy for one another and with that, an understanding of one another.
 
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I absolutely agree. There's so much in this world that pictures and movies just can't do justice. It makes me wish exchange programs were encouraged much more by schools. I think it's a life-changing opportunity.
 
Jeese, topic quality sure has gone down hill on this site.

This absolutely helped the jihadists recruit more people, this is not an opinion, this is fact. Don't pull hunches and opinions out of your ass.

Also, please stop talking about how jihadists "hate" our freedom, beliefs, etc. That is so laughable and bogus its not even funny. These are criminals first and foremost, gangs if you will. A painfully small number of terrorists have committed or attempted to commit acts of terror against US citizens. So tired of this generalization, it makes the situation appear far more simple than it really is.

Also, they don't have the right to do this because they don't have the permits. Sure that will mean next to nothing as far as stopping them, but in all technicality...no, they do no have the right.
 
Did you even read the topic? Or the article, for that matter?

Seriously, your response puzzles me. We've been involved, of late, largely in a discussion regarding the cynical use of propaganda to manipulate the emotions and prejudices of the people who are most susceptible to exploitation by the "jihadists", as you put it. Though technically, that's only one small part of the issue, albeit the most militant branch of a group that, as I put it, uses Americans in a similar way (albeit with a different focus) as a large number of politicians used African-Americans as a sort of combination bogeyman and cautionary tale in the post-Civil War South.

In a more general sense, we've been debating the role of the individual in resisting the exploitation of emotion by the news media, be it for financial or political reasons.
 
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