Burn a Quran Day

[Pompidou]

Muslims need to be treated equally. That's my position. That means they should be allowed their religious center near ground zero, and it means they should be acceptable targets for offense like any other people. If this was a Bible burning, nobody would care, not the government anyway, because we're pretty sure the Pope won't issue death threats, being civilized and all, like most cultures in the year 2010. Treat Muslims equally, for the better and for the worse. We insult French people - it was the cool thing to do when they didn't support Bush's Iraq invasion. We insult Catholics. Why, you can't say the word Catholic these days without a child molestation joke. We insult pretty much everyone. Muslims aren't special. We can offend them, and they should sit and take it, like civilized people have in the past. Take South Park for example - what groups has South Park offended? LOL, which groups hasn't South Park offended? Which group brought out the death threats? That's my point. Nobody should be above ridicule. It's the American way.

 

[Raesvelg]

I found a certain measure of irony, and a healthy dose of hypocrisy, in Muslim groups protesting this as-yet-to-occur Quran burning... by burning the US flag.

 

[ShomeGhuye]

I found a certain measure of irony, and a healthy dose of hypocrisy, in Muslim groups protesting this as-yet-to-occur Quran burning... by burning the US flag.

lol, that *is* pretty ironic. The difference is what's being burned though. Holy book vs. a nation's flag. Honestly though, burning the American flag seems to be a national pastime in many of those middle eastern countries. I wouldn't take it too seriously ...



Edit: Where do they even get so many American flags? It's like somebody keeps a stash of them with the sole purpose of having one on hand in case someone's in the mood for a flag burning.

 

[Raesvelg]

lol, that *is* pretty ironic. The difference is what's being burned though. Holy book vs. a nation's flag. Honestly though, burning the American flag seems to be a national pastime in many of those middle eastern countries. I wouldn't take it too seriously ...

To be honest, it's about as close as you can get, really. Americans don't really have a religious identity; we've got so many different religions here, after all, and none of them have any "official" standing. Burning the American flag is that same sort of pointed expression of disapproval for an entire group.

Edit: Where do they even get so many American flags? It's like somebody keeps a stash of them with the sole purpose of having one on hand in case someone's in the mood for a flag burning.

I've often wondered that. Then I remember that, much like a lot of things, it's frequently an engineered process. Much like how, when you see so many of these protests, the signs are written in english, but carried by people who don't speak it.

 

[Halifirien]

Given the pastor of that church looks like an aging Yosemite Sam, I'm hoping Bugs Bunny pops out at the last moment and tricks him into setting himself on fire.

 

[Pompidou]

The event was cancelled, so, it seems nothing will happen. Unfortunately, our only two options in dealing with the Middle East are: "They hate us even more now" and "They hate us about the same as always". Thankfully, we averted the former. Same old hate we've come to know and love.

 

[Halifirien]

It may not be off after all. He's reconsidering the decision to cancel. I wish he'd make up his damned mind before the newspaper's deadline so I'll know which headline to use. Plus the kooks from Westboro Baptist announced they'll gladly burn a few Qurans if Jones backs off.

Burn it or not, I don't really care at this point. We've done enough over there that treating THIS like it's going to be the ultimate terrorist recruiting boon is pure bullshit. Whether you think it was justified or not, bombing two nations and destroying their infrastructure, indefinitely detaining Muslims, stacking them naked for photo ops, giving them show trials because we don't trust the courts to deliver the "right" verdict and ignoring court orders to release suspects due to lack of evidence, killing countless civilians with drones, etc., is more than enough for their recruitment drives.

 

[Hexx]

The guy is just playing the media. Such a shame that a fringe group "congregation" of radicals can draw so much attention to themselves. If people were to just ignore them, and the media were to just turn the other way, they could have had their little book burning and nobody would have been the wiser.

 

[Miros]

/shrug

I don't find this any more offensive than any other book burning, flag burning, effigy burning, or any form of emphatic politicized incineration you care to name.

This shit goes on every day, when you get right down to it. It's annoying, it's provocative, and it doesn't solve a damn thing, but this is the price we pay for living in a free society.

I sort of see this on the same level as building the mosque near the ground zero area. It's certainly within their rights to do so, but it is pretty disrespectful and a huge slap in the face to a majority of people. It's certainly interesting to see people of both sides getting riled up. Also very scary...

It may not be off after all. He's reconsidering the decision to cancel. I wish he'd make up his damned mind before the newspaper's deadline so I'll know which headline to use. Plus the kooks from Westboro Baptist announced they'll gladly burn a few Qurans if Jones backs off.

Well Westboro has already burned the Quran before so I'm sure no matter what happens they'll go through with it.

One thing I thought was interesting to listen to last night was the press conference that the pastor held talking about calling off the whole thing. Apparently an Imam (sp) down there came out and said that he is hoping to speak to the Imam up in NY and discuss moving the mosque to a different area. It's nice to hear someone in a high position like that coming against something that is clearly insensitive to Americans. It'll be interesting to hear how this whole thing turns out.

 

[Raesvelg]

One can always hope...

 

[Skaw]

I sort of see this on the same level as building the mosque near the ground zero area. It's certainly within their rights to do so, but it is pretty disrespectful and a huge slap in the face to a majority of people. It's certainly interesting to see people of both sides getting riled up. Also very scary...

Saying it's disrespectful to build the center sounds a bit like bigotry. Fact is, normal Muslims don't hijack planes, kill 3,000 people, and destroy two buildings. Just in the same way normal Christ-based faith followers aren't pushing to keep homosexuals from marrying or leaving them to die on surgery tables. Lunatics do. Burning a Qu'ran however, is disrespectful. It's disrespectful to the peaceful followers of Islam - the vast majority of the Muslim population. It's an unnecessary act to send a message to a select few, when you're going to scare many more that aren't involved. Hey, sounds kind of like terrorism.

I think it's disrespectful to both Muslims and the United States itself to not honor the constitution, by not letting these people use whatever building they wish to pray in, so long as they follow the legal processes required. Islamophobia in America needs to stop right the fuck now.

 

[Strid]

I think a fact of Islam history needs to be made very, very clear. When devotees of Islam have "taken over" (use of ""not to emphasize but to state loosely) non believing areas it's common place for them to build a Mosque as a memorial to their victory. Even if that isn't the case here, it's a fact.

With that said, barring zoning laws, I wouldn't build a strip club right beside an elementary school. Therefore I would expect the same from everyone else.

On the other hand I would love to see the mosque erected and many people enjoy -said- ideals it will be built upon. It's America after all, and it's what she is suppose to stand for. I think no religion teaches best what America is all about than that of the Islamic faith when not tarnished for governmental type self-interest:

See you not that Allah sends down rain from the sky? With it We then bring out produce of various colors. And in the mountains are tracts white and red, of various shades of color, and black intense in hue. And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colors. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (Fatir 35:27-28)

There is diversity among human beings. They have variety of genders, colors and languages and multiplicity of races and tribes. These diversities are considered natural and are called “God’s signs” in the Qur’an (30:20-22). They are indicative of God’s creative power and wisdom and are good and healthy since they endow human life with richness and beauty. God wants human beings to derive benefit from this diversity and not to allow it to generate unhealthy schisms and divisions in their ranks.

I don't accept the being of a "god" personally, but I do feel that is a right proper message for us all.

So in a sense building the mosque there could do more good than harm, if properly done, the place could be a symbol of "that is not what we are, yet this is" being side by side. A bit of a grand apology from a few that should mean more than it probably will since it is only a few and they stepped on a few "feelings" to get there.

 

[Halifirien]

I think a fact of Islam history needs to be made very, very clear. When devotees of Islam have "taken over" (use of ""not to emphasize but to state loosely) non believing areas it's common place for them to build a Mosque as a memorial to their victory. Even if that isn't the case here, it's a fact.

That carries little weight as an argument. Christians also build churches when they spill into a new area. It only sounds ominous about mosques because of the perception that Muslims are the Klingons of the religious world.

 

[Skaw]

So in a sense building the mosque there could do more good than harm, if properly done, the place could be a symbol of "that is not what we are, yet this is" being side by side. A bit of a grand apology from a few that should mean more than it probably will since it is only a few and they stepped on a few "feelings" to get there.

There is literally no harm in the center going up. It's an Islamic version of the YMCA, made for the community in mind. Basketball courts, swimming pools - the kind of stuff you'd expect from the YMCA as well. All peoples regardless of race or creed are allowed to use the facilities. The "problem" is the bigotry against anything percieved as non-wholesome and/or white by closed minded bigots, simply because it has a prayer area and is being built by an Imam. Also, it's being built two blocks away from Ground Zero. Ergo, it is not in fact being built on Ground Zero, but an arbitrary distance described as Ground Zero by people with ulterior motives(Playing the prejudiced for their money.) Not naming any names, but these people can frequently be found on, or would fit right in, a certain Opinionated Entertainment channel that likes to call itself and lead people to believe that it is in fact a News channel.

 

[ShomeGhuye]

Two died in protests against the would-have-been Quran burning ... ironic.

 

[Skaw]

Two died in protests against the would-have-been Quran burning ... ironic.

Yep, and I hope this Pastor comes to realize that the blood of two innocent people are on his hands because of his cause. But he probably won't, because they're evil heathens not following the word of Christ.

 

[Eilistrae]

Yep, and I hope this Pastor comes to realize that the blood of two innocent people are on his hands because of his cause. But he probably won't, because they're evil heathens not following the word of Christ.

someone as ignorant as he is will probably feel that its their fault regardless

 

[Pompidou]

Yep, and I hope this Pastor comes to realize that the blood of two innocent people are on his hands because of his cause. But he probably won't, because they're evil heathens not following the word of Christ.

The pastor is a reject, don't get me wrong, but the blood of the two innocent people is solely on the hands of the people who killed them. Folks in the Middle East need to realize that you don't need a violent protest for every offense. I mean, the Korans weren't even burnt yet, and already, they were just itching to stage a violent protest. Fundamentalist Islamic culture killed those two innocent people, and they won't be the last.

I mean, let's face it - nothing has happened yet - you have that on one hand. On the other hand you have: protests so violent they kill two people. It's totally disproportionate. They aught to wait till a Koran gets burnt before they let their blood boil and go on a rampage.

 

[Skaw]

I mean, let's face it - nothing has happened yet - you have that on one hand. On the other hand you have: protests so violent they kill two people. It's totally disproportionate. They aught to wait till a Koran gets burnt before they let their blood boil and go on a rampage.

Waiting until something actually happens to protest it from happening is the worst way to prevent it from happening. These protests wouldn't even be going on if the Pastor never thought to put on this event.

 

[Pompidou]

Lethally violent protests aren't the only solution, though. Maybe Americans are just better at making signs and standing outside, but our simple pickets get things changed about as often as their style of protests, and nobody gets killed. So, while I agree with you that nobody would've been protesting the Koran burning if nobody had thought of the idea, I still say they chose their own response, and of all the options in the world at their disposal, they chose that one. Their protests seem more likely to lead to casualties than any protests you get in the western world. They could've just picketed. It's all a matter of self control. I mean, odds are slim that people will accidently kill each other in normal situations. This could've been avoided with self control and a more measured response. I can't think of anything that would offend me enough to stage a reaction so violent, random passersby or participants (didn't see the article of who specifically was killed), would be at life's risk. Usually, when I get pissed, I write a longer than usual message on a message board, with a title and content that might be hyperbolic and not entirely accurate (like my dictator thread on this very forum). You're not wrong about the pastor, but I don't know that he can really be held at fault - not for the deaths. He certainly disturbed the peace and made a huge commotion though. It's only the murders that I would absolve him from responsibility for.