Burtgang

[Caerloc]

initial reports I've read suggest at least one of the new coin things seems to be ~50% drop off most/all NMs(frogs and stuff) and average maybe ~10 coins per each one . the other one hasn't been seen yet but have yet to read of somone killing a chariot since update. even if the other one is ~100 coins and a 100% drop off the chariots, ya this is still going to be almost as stupid as before. even at 100 coins per run (the 3 runs I've read about were around 20 coins)30k is what 300 runs >< so a years worth of salvage everyday with all coins from all runs going to you, assuming 5 times the drop rates that have been seen so far.

This is pretty much the point i'm trying to make. No matter the drop-rate and no matter the price of coins really, the price is still gonna be out of reach for the general public to finish anytime within a year or so. Even if the coins where to go as low as 1k (extremely doubtful due to the high demand we are gonna see) it would still cost 30M.

Suggested drop-rate for a skilled salvage group (not the general public) seems to be 100-150, which means for a skilled group letting a single member lot all the coins, your still looking at 200-300 days of everyday non-mistake full zone salvage.

My guess is that the coins will end up costing 3-5k a piece.

 

[Rhaddy]

Suggested drop-rate for a skilled salvage group (not the general public) seems to be 100-150, which means for a skilled group letting a single member lot all the coins, your still looking at 200-300 days of everyday non-mistake full zone salvage.

My guess is that the coins will end up costing 3-5k a piece.

If an LS was contributing all alexanderite farmed to one person, it could be a lot more realistic. Multiple parties farm for one person... I'm sure Nightmare could do it!

 

[Diabllos]

My point is the DPS on the weapon is a non factor when you compare EVERYTHING else it brings to the table and absolutely not a disqualifier when considering whether to use it or not. So again who cares what the DPS of this weapon is? If you want to tank in ANY other sword available in the game to a PLD with a higher DPS cause you think you'll keep hate better then this weapon by lol DDing a mob then more power to you.

DPS in this instance is irrelevant.

Get a fucking clue. Hauteclaire has the second highest DPS after Excal, which does factor into it's enmity generation. Sure, people would still use it if it had DMG:1, but it's high DPS is just another bonus which shouldn't be discounted entirely.

My point stands that Burtgang outshines both in every way including DPS. Again, if it had DMG:1 or Acc-50 it would still be the superior sword, but discounting DPS is idiotic. It isn't a main factor, it IS a minor factor which does count into enmity generation. Stop being a moron and read what i write.

Yea, I gotta agree with ya Tom, DPS isn't a factor at all with the other stats this has, it'd be just as gamebreaking with a .1 dps

But it is a factor. Not the main one, of course, but DPS factors into enmity generation as I say.

How do you think melees pull hate? Why can Ninja's hold hate simply by a voke and their own melee attacks? DPS factors into enmity the exact same way for any job.

 

[Caerloc]

If an LS was contributing all alexanderite farmed to one person, it could be a lot more realistic. Multiple parties farm for one person... I'm sure Nightmare could do it!

I wouldnt be surprised if he actually DID do it that way. And i could see an endgame shell farming for their tank. Perseverance would probably do it, as i understand they do with relics. I dont know how kaizen would go about. Integral wouldnt do it. But the fact still remains, the general public wont see one of these for a long time.

 

[jamal]

Get a fucking clue. Hauteclaire has the second highest DPS after Excal, which does factor into it's enmity generation. Sure, people would still use it if it had DMG:1, but it's high DPS is just another bonus which shouldn't be discounted entirely.

My point stands that Burtgang outshines both in every way including DPS. Again, if it had DMG:1 or Acc-50 it would still be the superior sword, but discounting DPS is idiotic. It isn't a main factor, it IS a minor factor which does count into enmity generation. Stop being a moron and read what i write.

But it is a factor. Not the main one, of course, but DPS factors into enmity generation as I say.

How do you think melees pull hate? Why can Ninja's hold hate simply by a voke and their own melee attacks? DPS factors into enmity the exact same way for any job.

High tier HNM's where a PLD isn't geared for doing dmg where this would be the most valuable, you'll be kiting (KB/Kirin) or wearing a dmg resistance set. PLD's hitting the mob with a full dmg resistance setup the 20 dmg per hit rather than 10 won't do a lick for enmity. In an exp pt or a lower tier NM, yes it would matter, but anything of value a PLD's dps means jack.

 

[Diabllos]

High tier HNM's where a PLD isn't geared for doing dmg where this would be the most valuable, you'll be kiting (KB/Kirin) or wearing a dmg resistance set. PLD's hitting the mob with a full dmg resistance setup the 20 dmg per hit rather than 10 won't do a lick for enmity. In an exp pt or a lower tier NM, yes it would matter, but anything of value a PLD's dps means jack.

I'm not really suggesting a set for dealing damage. I'm saying that DPS isn't to be completely ignored. There are a portion of endgame fights whereby you won't be hitting at all, you're right, but a large portion will involve you hitting. Even to just gain TP, you'll be wanting to hit occasionally. Excalibur is so fantastic for this very reason- that it's melee hits can do substantial damage, leading to some decent enmity being generated as a result. DPS isn't important, but it's not to be discarded completely.

Not only was Hauteclaire the best damage reduction sword, but also the second highest DPS. Burtgang surpasses it in both fields, and that is my point.

 

[jamal]

I'm not really suggesting a set for dealing damage. I'm saying that DPS isn't to be completely ignored. There are a portion of endgame fights whereby you won't be hitting at all, you're right, but a large portion will involve you hitting. Even to just gain TP, you'll be wanting to hit occasionally. Excalibur is so fantastic for this very reason- that it's melee hits can do substantial damage, leading to some decent enmity being generated as a result. DPS isn't important, but it's not to be discarded completely.

Not only was Hauteclaire the best damage reduction sword, but also the second highest DPS. Burtgang surpasses it in both fields, and that is my point.

There's no ACC on Burtgang, your hit rate will be equal to anything else. On a LVL 85+ mob, a slightly higher DPS will do nothing for hate generation, nothing. The only damage difference you'll see between this and hautclaire is maybe 1 dmg more per hit. Assuming 50% accuracy, you're only doing a maximum of 500 dmg more per fight, assuming it takes forever to kill. The DPS on this again, is nothing compared to the other stats.

 

[Diabllos]

As i said, it would still be the best sword available even with DMG:0. My point (which i keep restating here) is that it outshines both swords in every way, including DPS. The +7 acc on hauteclaire isn't going to outweigh the double attacking of Burtgang. The importance of DPS doesn't factor into this... only the fact that it's DPS is comparably superior.

 

[Diabllos]

Also...

Would be fun to dual wield Haute/Burtgang. lol

-17% phys. damage taken wut

 

[Tomasello]

Get a fucking clue. Hauteclaire has the second highest DPS after Excal, which does factor into it's enmity generation. Sure, people would still use it if it had DMG:1, but it's high DPS is just another bonus which shouldn't be discounted entirely.

Yes it should and you make my point for me. Whether it has 1 DPS or 50 DPS it is still the best weapon to tank in, even better then an Excalibur, so YES IT SHOULD BE DISCOUNTED BECAUSE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN CONSIDERATION WHETHER TO USE THE WEAPON OR NOT. Maybe YOU should get a fucking clue....

On a LVL 85+ mob, a slightly higher DPS will do nothing for hate generation, nothing.

You don't have to take my word for it Diabllos. This is spot on.

 

[JP]

Seriously guys, Dia is just saying that DPS DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Not a HUGE difference but its still a factor in keeping hate. I and him are not saying get a sword with a higher DPS will be better than Burtang, but the DPS will help. Of course if your kiting then it won't matter but you don't kite everything. I don't even see how this became into a argument lol

It's not like he said "Yeah the Enmity, Physical DMG -, and the less Enmity loss is nice, BUT LOOK AT THE DPS!"

 

[Diabllos]

In Diabblos' opinion...The two best options non relic = Hauteclaire, Mac+1.

Burtgang = Superior enmity to Mac+1, superior damage reduction to Hauteclaire, and superior DPS to both. Overall, a better sword in every way.

 

[jamal]

Seriously guys, Dia is just saying that DPS DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Not a HUGE difference but its still a factor in keeping hate. I and him are not saying get a sword with a higher DPS will be better than Burtang, but the DPS will help. Of course if your kiting then it won't matter but you don't kite everything. I don't even see how this became into a argument lol

Because it's irrelevant comparatively. It's like saying 1 shield skill makes a difference in damage reduction.

 

[Diabllos]

Also, here's something people could read.
http://belkinator.livejournal.com/

Scroll down a little to the PLD/NIN section. Enjoy.

 

[jamal]

Although I do encourage engaging mobs, I do not recommend it for Tiamat. He has super ninja counter skills that will bug you the entire fight and engaging will do more harm than good.

Barfire

I don't have one of these for my PLD, although I probably should. If you need to see what gear to use for this, you can scroll down until you find the NIN tanking guide and just piece together what both PLD and NIN can use. Fill in whatever doesn't match with the next best thing.

Why should I read this again in regards to DPS?

 

[Diabllos]

My exact reaction when DPS was first brought into the discussion.

Try reading the Livejournal, and you'll realise that DPS isn't such a stupid thing to consider in your gear choice and tanking style as PLD.

Standing setup:
Head: Walahra Turban --- +5% Haste
Neck: Parade Gorget --- Refresh Effect
Body: Ares's Cuirass --- Refresh Effect +24 Attack
Hands: Homam Manopolas --- +3% Haste, +4 Accuracy
Legs: Homam Cosciales --- +3% Haste, +3 Accuracy
Feet: Homam Gambieras --- +3% Haste, +6 Accuracy
Back: Cerberus Mantle --- +12 Attack
Waist: Swift Belt --- +4% Haste, +3 Accuracy
Ear: Ethereal Earring --- +5 Attack, 3% Damage Converted to MP

Notice how he highlights haste and accuracy, and uses that in his idle setup?

Here's some more:

Although Macuahuitl +1 is rarely trumped, Hauteclaire is the second weapon option and arguably better in most instances. It is the highest Damage Per Second weapon a PLD can use besides Excalibur, it has the accuracy to improve your TP gain and the heralded -7% physical damage. Due to my firm belief in PLD being able to put up some respectable numbers on HNM parses (As evident with Stanislav), I rarely take Hauteclaire off.

Belkin among other respectable PLDs aren't so narrow-minded to discard DPS completely.

 

[jamal]

Belkin among other respectable PLDs aren't so narrow-minded to discard DPS completely.

I'm not discarding it completely. I am saying there's a time and place for it, and a lvl 85 HNM is not the place for it.

My findings aren't from reading livejournals, they're from actual fight experience.

Edit:

Read my comments on the livejournal in previous edit.

 

[Diabllos]

Why should I read this again in regards to DPS?

Having a complete barfire set makes or breaks a respectable Paladin? He probably doesn't do Tiamat and shit anymore on PLD, rather on NIN as he says. It doesn't prove or suggest anything about whether or not he knows what he's talking about.

I'm not discarding it completely. I am saying there's a time and place for it, and a lvl 85 HNM is not the place for it.

My findings aren't from reading livejournals, they're from actual fight experience.

But you are discarding it completely. My point was that it does factor into it, and shouldn't be ignored completely. You and Tom have been fighting against it for the last couple of pages saying that it means absolutely nothing.

Lv85 HNMs aren't everything a Paladin deals with. So are you saying DPS factors into other events, where you aren't engaging Lv85 HNMs? If so, you're contradicting yourself.

Livejournals give valuable insight into experienced players like Belkin here. He's been playing PLD since NA release, and has worked among the best. He knows what he's talking about, and has a lot more fight experience than you or I.

 

[Tyrath]

I'm not discarding it completely. I am saying there's a time and place for it, and a lvl 85 HNM is not the place for it.

And he's also not saying it comes into effect 100% of the time..

 

[jamal]

Having a complete barfire set makes or breaks a respectable Paladin? He probably doesn't do Tiamat and shit anymore on PLD, rather on NIN as he says. It doesn't prove or suggest anything about whether or not he knows what he's talking about.

But you are discarding it completely. My point was that it does factor into it, and shouldn't be ignored completely. You and Tom have been fighting against it for the last couple of pages saying that it means absolutely nothing.

Lv85 HNMs aren't everything a Paladin deals with. So are you saying DPS factors into other events, where you aren't engaging Lv85 HNMs? If so, you're contradicting yourself.

Livejournals give valuable insight into experienced players like Belkin here. He's been playing PLD since NA release, and has worked among the best. He knows what he's talking about, and has a lot more fight experience than you or I.

High tier HNM's where a PLD isn't geared for doing dmg where this would be the most valuable, you'll be kiting (KB/Kirin) or wearing a dmg resistance set. PLD's hitting the mob with a full dmg resistance setup the 20 dmg per hit rather than 10 won't do a lick for enmity. In an exp pt or a lower tier NM, yes it would matter, but anything of value a PLD's dps means jack.

Yea, I gotta agree with ya Tom, DPS isn't a factor at all with the other stats this has, it'd be just as gamebreaking with a .1 dps

I was PLD in the first NA attempts of Tiamat, Jorm, Vrtra, Fafnir, Aspid, on our server. The ONLY experience he has over me would be in regards to Khim and Bahamut V2.

Can I learn something from him? Sure. Much? Not really.