buying gil online

[Tyrion]

pascal what your saying is true, but they cannot prosecute without absolute proof

let me make this post easier for you to read then.....

pascal what your saying is true, but they cannot "prosecute" persay without absolute proof meaning they cant do anything without proof

does that help u understand now tyrion

Anything? They, legally and legitimately, could shut off an account merely because they suspect that it might be used by Gil Sellers.

No trial, no proof, it's poof your account is gone. They don't need shit to do that.

If you're talking legal action, then sure, they need proof. Otherwise, it's their network, they decide what to do with it.

 

[masterorion]

pascal what your saying is true, but they cannot prosecute without absolute proof

let me make this post easier for you to read then.....

pascal what your saying is true, but they cannot "prosecute" persay without absolute proof meaning they cant do anything without proof

does that help u understand now tyrion

Anything? They, legally and legitimately, could shut off an account merely because they suspect that it might be used by Gil Sellers.

No trial, no proof, it's poof your account is gone. They don't need shit to do that.

If you're talking legal action, then sure, they need proof. Otherwise, it's their network, they decide what to do with it.

where you get that from is the TOS which in a minor way is "legal" binding. they cannot shut off your acct because the suspect something unless there is a breach of the contract. thus meaning, they cannot do anything unless there is for sure a breach of the contract. and yes, that is listed in the TOS. and if they do terminate your service, there is a prior notice

 

[masterorion]

also, to back that, if i were to, lets say, tell SE that you were selling gil, they are not going to term your acct just from heresay correct? if that was the case, anyone that is having disputes in game would do that to anoter person for the simple fact, that they dont like them. it goes along with the harrassment issue. they check the logs to get the documented proof to verify what is said, is actually true before action is taken. yes your right, they can do whatever they want since it is there network, however, they prefer to have money than to term someones acct because for the simple fact there is an assumption.
**(note to self)-make new mule with name "gilseller" to see what happens**
i guarantee that they wont shut that acct off. the name will give them a reason to "look into it" to check for abnormal item or gil disbursments, but they wont term it because of a mere name that it was given

 

[ultraseven]

master, just buy some gil and get it over with.

[psssst... level subjob ^^ hmmmkay thx [poke]]

 

[masterorion]

no need to buy gil. i have all that i need as far as gil goes.

 

[ultraseven]

sharing is caring... [gil][mine] give me!

 

[Tyrion]

also, to back that, if i were to, lets say, tell SE that you were selling gil, they are not going to term your acct just from heresay correct? if that was the case, anyone that is having disputes in game would do that to anoter person for the simple fact, that they dont like them. it goes along with the harrassment issue. they check the logs to get the documented proof to verify what is said, is actually true before action is taken. yes your right, they can do whatever they want since it is there network, however, they prefer to have money than to term someones acct because for the simple fact there is an assumption.
**(note to self)-make new mule with name "gilseller" to see what happens**
i guarantee that they wont shut that acct off. the name will give them a reason to "look into it" to check for abnormal item or gil disbursments, but they wont term it because of a mere name that it was given

I already addressed that - it has nothing to do with legality, it has to do with business sense. Can they legally terminate an account for anything? YES. Are they going to, and lose the $13+ a month? Fuck no.

Are you an idiot? Fuck yes. :x

 

[masterorion]

also, to back that, if i were to, lets say, tell SE that you were selling gil, they are not going to term your acct just from heresay correct? if that was the case, anyone that is having disputes in game would do that to anoter person for the simple fact, that they dont like them. it goes along with the harrassment issue. they check the logs to get the documented proof to verify what is said, is actually true before action is taken. yes your right, they can do whatever they want since it is there network, however, they prefer to have money than to term someones acct because for the simple fact there is an assumption.
**(note to self)-make new mule with name "gilseller" to see what happens**
i guarantee that they wont shut that acct off. the name will give them a reason to "look into it" to check for abnormal item or gil disbursments, but they wont term it because of a mere name that it was given

I already addressed that - it has nothing to do with legality, it has to do with business sense. Can they legally terminate an account for anything? YES. Are they going to, and lose the $13+ a month? Fuck no.

Are you an idiot? Fuck yes. :x

they can terminate it for anything-of course they can if they have proof of anything that has broken the terms of service

 

[Tyrion]

They don't need proof. It's their network. Where do you get this idea that commercial transactions are bound by rules of evidence?

<Brain><Damage> <Do you have it?>

 

[masterorion]

well, ill test that theory, ill tell a gm that you sell gil.
do u think they will turn your acct off without looking into it first?
i think not. so <stupidity><you do have it>

 

[QQ]

<Brain><Damage> <Do you have it?>

<stupidity><you do have it>

lol.

 

[Tyrion]

Notes: Blue text is something I've summarized that doesn't touch on this argument. Red text is something that I'm trying to stress.

Underlining is something I'm trying to emphasize because Masterorion is a goddamn idiot.

SEUI = Square Enix USA, Inc.

From the Final Fantasy XI PC manual, Page 133, article 4.4
Revocation of User Rights. SEUI shall reserve the right in its sole discretion to revoke or suspend your PlayOnline user account and your ability to use PlayOnline at any time without notice to you, particularly but not limited to if SEUI should determine (in its sole discretion) or should reasonably believe that you are responsible for, or have participated in, any of the following (collectively, "Prohibited Actions"):

(a) Providing any false name, address, or other registration information to SEUI.

(b) Comitting Denial of Service attacks against PlayOnline.

(c) Defaming SEUI.

(d) Using PlayOnline to transmit restricted material.

(e) Offering for sale, selling, or otherwise seeking monetary compensation for (1) any Software characters (or "Avatars"), (2) any names, abilities, character features, or other items available within a game or as a result of game play or through PlayOnline service, (3) any points acquired as a result of using the Software or playing any online games in PlayOnline, or (4) access to any PlayOnline user account.

(f) Harassing other players.

(g) Using PlayOnline for criminal activities.

(h) Impersonating PlayOnline employees.

(i) Use of any commercially available cheat codes or devises; or

(j) Violating any rule.

In addition, SEUI shall be entitled to terminate the account (immediately and without notice) of any User who was previously suspended or terminated by SEUI and who re-registered using different information in order to avoid such suspension or termination. You agree to indemnify and hold SEUI harmless from and against any losses or damages sustained by SEUI as a result of your engaging in any Prohibited Activities, and you further agree to reimburse SEUI for any and all expenses incurred by SEUI in remedying the effects of such action.

There you go Masterorion, your own personal clue.

BTW:

in·dem·ni·fy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-dmn-f)
tr.v. in·dem·ni·fied, in·dem·ni·fy·ing, in·dem·ni·fies
To protect against damage, loss, or injury; insure.
To make compensation to for damage, loss, or injury suffered.
-Dictionary.com

 

[masterorion]

forgot some tyrion,

check 3.2 termination under member agreement

 

[masterorion]

3.2 Termination.
(a) Your PlayOnline user account and any rights you may have under this Agreement (including those you may have under any other agreement related to your use of PlayOnline) will immediately and automatically terminate upon your breach of any provision of this Agreement, including (without limitation) your violation of any Rule.
(b) You may terminate this Agreement at any time by canceling your PlayOnline user account and by ceasing all use of PlayOnline and all related services. If your PlayOnline user account is terminated by SEI for any reason, you will not be able to reactivate the terminated user account again.
(c) SEI reserves the right to terminate PlayOnline Service in whole or in part for any reason with prior notice.


tell me how they will know if you breach this contract. gotta be with some kind of proof right!? think about it for a sec. SE will not disallow you from signing on because of an accusation or some kind of reasonable proof that you are doing something that breaches the contract set

 

[masterorion]

**addition to last** this is common sense. i will prove this. i will make an accusation to a gm that you yourself tyrion, are selling gil. i guarantee they wont do anything until investigating this accusation

 

[Sculli]

I think Tyrion's point is that they won't go anything at all, even if they were to find him in violation of rules, simply because they want to keep him as a customer.

 

[Skc]

**addition to last** this is common sense. i will prove this. i will make an accusation to a gm that you yourself tyrion, are selling gil. i guarantee they wont do anything until investigating this accusation

Just a thought.....

I really don't want to get into this "Debate" about who's right or who's wrong but, if you were to send a GM such accusation, they might be watching Tyrion like a hawk from now on. So with that being said, Tyrion would like being watch by Big Daddy (SE)?

 

[Pascal]

One of the basic concepts of Free Enterprise is the choose to do business with somebody. This is not only for consumers but the businesses as well. Business all the time chooses to no longer do business with people. I told one of my customers last week that I would no longer be able to do business with them. No reason given. SE has the same right, they can terminate your account with out proof or even giving you a reason beyond they choose to no longer do business with you. This is what Tyrion is getting at; they do not need proof, because if they choose to suspend your account you have no recourse against them. Now would it be wise for SE to terminate accounts for no reason. No, nor would they that does not make monetary since. Same goes for the Gil Sellers, they pay there monthly subscriptions and my guess would be there payments to SE are pretty High, since they have more than 3 or 4 people making and storing gil.

As for my original post, in a civil law suit, this is what a copyright suit is. The burden of proof is very different from a criminal trial. To file a law suit you need zero proof, just reasonable suspicion. During the discovery phase, each side can request what ever information they choose too from one another. Then each side must file motions on the other person’s request, to fight having to release that information. So if SE or any game company wanted to, all they would have to do is request the transaction records of a gil selling company, to prove they have sold gil and are reselling a copyright with out permission. Will any game company ever do this? No, the risk is too high if they loose the case.

Either method of dealing with Gil Sellers, locally or globally in the market is currently not monetarily reasonable. SE subscriptions to FFXI are on the raise, so what few people leave the game because of gil sellers is null and void because it does not effect there bottom line. Because it does not effect there bottom line but actually boost it, they will choose not to solve the problem legally on a global scale. Until such time that the Gil Sellers actually cause SE to loose money, all we can do is complain.

 

[Tyrion]

**addition to last** this is common sense. i will prove this. i will make an accusation to a gm that you yourself tyrion, are selling gil. i guarantee they wont do anything until investigating this accusation

Just a thought.....

I really don't want to get into this "Debate" about who's right or who's wrong but, if you were to send a GM such accusation, they might be watching Tyrion like a hawk from now on. So with that being said, Tyrion would like being watch by Big Daddy (SE)?

I don't care, I don't do anything against the TOS.

 

[masterorion]

I think Tyrion's point is that they won't go anything at all, even if they were to find him in violation of rules, simply because they want to keep him as a customer.

that wasnt tyrions debate. that was mine. hes just not understanding that.


yes buying/selling gil is totally against the TOS. thats a known fact by anyone that has read over the TOS...if you didnt know, TOS says no selling gil, or purchasing gil. my point the whole time is, if someone does sell or purchase gil, SE will not do anything unless something is brought to their attention or they discover this on their own.for this to be brought to their attention, someone needs to state something saying that "so and so is selling gil(or purchasing-whatever). from there, they arent just going to suspend someone because of heresay. if they suspended someone because of heresay, the fact that there are people in this game that dislike each other, this type of thing would get out of hand. therefore, they would check logs as far as what transactions, comments, etc have been made as they would if there was an accusation of harassment!

and TYRION. (I don't care, I don't do anything against the TOS.)
its good to see that your catching on without actually even knowing it....they wont suspend you because there is no reason for them to suspend you.
if i made a comment to a gm that you were selling gil thats all there is(a comment stating that you sold gil). there is no other proof for them to go from backing a comment stating that you are selling gil.
that was the whole point all along yet you are arguing that TOS blah blah this blah blah that. well no kidding the terms of service gives them the right to suspend your acct because of actions by players that go against the TOS. but if you havent done anything against the TOS, it gives them no reason to susspend an acct therefore, they wont

key point by me:
i wasnt arguing anything about their right to suspend an acct. by all means, of course they can. but they wont unless a rule was broken and there isnt a way to know a rule was broken unless it was seen by SE that it was broken. a gil seller can get off scott free unless someone snitches on that person and they follow thru to verify that it is true