Columbine Super Massacre RPG

Hal: The medium isn't inherently lesser; but I have yet to see people create the types of messages and convey meaning as well in video games as in other forms. The art in video games lies in creation, creation of most anything is almost a type of artform its now just an issue of creating something on the same level of a great film or a powerful book (or whatever form of literature).

Chasym: You don't really get my point about why your "you don't know you didn't play it" argument is seriously flawed and that is why it has become repetitive, but whatever.
 
Mattaru said:
Hal: The medium isn't inherently lesser; but I have yet to see people create the types of messages and convey meaning as well in video games as in other forms. The art in video games lies in creation, creation of most anything is almost a type of artform its now just an issue of creating something on the same level of a great film or a powerful book (or whatever form of literature).

Chasym: You don't really get my point about why your "you don't know you didn't play it" argument is seriously flawed and that is why it has become repetitive, but whatever.
i get your point, but your calling it what it isnt so you dont get mine.
 
Mattaru said:
Chasym: You don't really get my point about why your "you don't know you didn't play it" argument is seriously flawed and that is why it has become repetitive, but whatever.

How the hell are you going to know shit about the game if you never played it?
 
Bustaballs said:
How the hell are you going to know shit about the game if you never played it?

Um...people's descriptions and what the creator has said about it.

How the hell are you going to know about the Holocaust if you weren't there?
....get it. Just because you don't experience something first hand doesn't mean you can't have a good grasp on it.

Chasym: I know you are but what am I. If you aren't going to actually dig into my analysis you aren't being responsive and the former sentence is what it is really boiling down to on your part.

EDIT: If you want to see what I mean...look at Hal's response. It is the only legitimate critique I have read so far and quite frankly a good one.
 
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I dissagree. I don't care who says what about anything. You aren't going to have a full understanding of something unless you experience it first hand. No matter where I went, every review of WoW was positive and made it out to be the greatest game ever. When I actually played it, I hated it. It was a less than average mmo by my standards.

Games are a tad different from history because you don't have the option of experiencing history.

You can hear your friends tell you how great Disneyland was but you don't actually know until you go there.
 
Mattaru said:
Um...people's descriptions and what the creator has said about it.

How the hell are you going to know about the Holocaust if you weren't there?
....get it. Just because you don't experience something first hand doesn't mean you can't have a good grasp on it.

Chasym: I know you are but what am I. If you aren't going to actually dig into my analysis you aren't being responsive and the former sentence is what it is really boiling down to on your part.

EDIT: If you want to see what I mean...look at Hal's response. It is the only legitimate critique I have read so far and quite frankly a good one.
wtf r u talkin about, i said we agree to disagree and let it go, i didnt call you anything that would associate "i know you are but what am i"
you hate the game and the idea of it and call it things it isnt.
i took time to find out what it was all about when i was calling it things it wasnt, two different peoples "grasp" on it, I didnt just go by what other people wrote or said about it, cause if i did id be believing it made money like uzor did when he watched the video.

your saying im being childish by having my opinion, im saying your being childish by wanting me to see it your way because of what you or other people have said.
i think your just angry and spiteful that someone isnt sittin here bashin it with ya and wanna take it out on me because i have a debate about it.
dude let it go already then. Its not gonna go nowhere and anything i say to you is null and void because its not right if its not your way. move along.
 
Bustaballs said:
I dissagree. I don't care who says what about anything. You aren't going to have a full understanding of something unless you experience it first hand. No matter where I went, every review of WoW was positive and made it out to be the greatest game ever. When I actually played it, I hated it. It was a less than average mmo by my standards.

Games are a tad different from history because you don't have the option of experiencing history.

You can hear your friends tell you how great Disneyland was but you don't actually know until you go there.

1) Whether it be history or not, an event, a game etc. It doesn't matter. Of course experiencing something is going to give you a greater and more comprehensive understanding. But are you to actually tell me you can not pass judgement or be able to rationalize out something if you don't experience it first hand. You do not even need to answer because it is a double bind. If you agree that it is possible then you don't have a point. If you disagree then the whole argument is mainly pointless because nothing has a clear definable reality because knowledge is now only what you experience first hand which varies depending on a person.

2) If you had read my earlier posts you would have noticed that I actually concede that people are obviously going to take many different things from this game positive or negative depending on their personalities and relation to the event.

Chasym:

Simple Chasym, all I am trying to get you to admit is that just because I haven't played the game doesn't mean that I am not justified in having a negative opinion on it. I have rationalized this countless times and shown it is something people do every day and rightly do it a good portion of those times. I have read people's interpretations on it, many of which on this board I have not had any beef with.
An analogy: Let's say I haven't heard the policies of a candidate straight from their mouth but I have recieved information from unbiased sources about it who I believe have no reason to lie about it to me and therefore make a judgement on them,. Is my judgement less valid than someone's who has heard it straight from their mouth?
It seems fairly logical to me and the response I get from you is generally along the lines of:
"The only thing i said was dont call it what it isnt when you dont even know"
Which really isn't responsive to the point, it just reiterates your own which really doesn't create any constructive discourse between us. Needless to say it just gets frustrating trying to make a point and instead of actually debating it you just say yours again which is why I may come off as "spiteful".
 
Mattaru said:
How the hell are you going to know about the Holocaust if you weren't there?
....get it. Just because you don't experience something first hand doesn't mean you can't have a good grasp on it.

This is actually a bad example. It would only hold true to your arguement if you said "How are you going to know about a video game depicting the holocaust if you've never played it?"

Which is true. How would you know?
 
ive said it earlier on matt, dunno why it seems that me accepting and respecting your reasons for not playing the game is something you act like i didnt say, your basing your opinion on something that YOU CAN experience by what someone else said. You dont wanna experience it because its a touchy personal issue with you. Thats fine and i respect that fully.
But dont call the game what it isnt if you DONT KNOW. its that simple, im not tryin to be a dick here but your makin me out to seem like im being one towards you about it, Two different opinions and an agreement to disagree is what we got here.
Im not slammin you for not playin it, Im simply wondering how you can call it disgusting and absurd if you dont even know how its presented? i mean most of the stuff ive read on there that other people have said is just about the same things your saying, without playing.
It makes no sense.
Its like standing outside protesting a movie at its premiere though you never even saw the movie, your protesting the cover of the book and thats it, not whats inside.
Again. I respect you dont want to, cannot bear, would feel wrong if you played the game.
i respect that.
But dont dish out your protest if you dont know what your protesting.
 
Trippyhippy said:
This is actually a bad example. It would only hold true to your arguement if you said "How are you going to know about a video game depicting the holocaust if you've never played it?"

Which is true. How would you know?

Reviews, screenshots, what people have said about it that you know personally, the companies advertising strategy, I am sure such a game would get news media so interviews etc.

The example was only meant to show knowledge of a subject, almost any subject can be derived by second hand.

EDIT: And secondly what keeps getting continually misconstrued is that my min critique does not even rely on the fact that I have played it or not, it relies on the fact that it is a video game and what implications that holds. I just choose not to continually retype that every post because I can assume everyone can read.

Chasym: your post would have been fine if you didn't say "But dont call the game what it isnt if you DONT KNOW" again, because I've offered reasons why that is untrue and you continually refuse to even dig into them.
 
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Mattaru said:
Reviews, screenshots, what people have said about it that you know personally, the companies advertising strategy, I am sure such a game would get news media so interviews etc.

The example was only meant to show knowledge of a subject, almost any subject can be derived by second hand.

EDIT: And secondly what keeps getting continually misconstrued is that my min critique does not even rely on the fact that I have played it or not, it relies on the fact that it is a video game and what implications that holds. I just choose not to continually retype that every post because I can assume everyone can read.

Chasym: your post would have been fine if you didn't say "But dont call the game what it isnt if you DONT KNOW" again, because I've offered reasons why that is untrue and you continually refuse to even dig into them.
how am i supposed to "dig into" the fact that you say your basing what you think it is on what other people say and not from what you know. i'm not the only one scratching my head on your logic in that against me saying to not call it what you dont know about it. Because its a solid fact, that you do not know.
cause ya know i was told not to watch lady in the water cause it was the worst movie of the year, and every review i saw said just about the same.
So i watched it lastnight, and i understood the movie to where other people said it made no sense, and i thought it was a great movie. Im never going to limit my choices on anything based on someone elses word.
But thats me, i like having a grasp on my views about something so i have a reason to speak for or against it.
you can believe and rally along with someone else and how they feel about it, but fact remains your probly rallying with someone else who also, has not played it.

but hey, lets step aside from the people who were not involved in columbines opinion for a sec, away from my opinion, away from yours and the people screaming blasphemy and lets look at what someone who lived through it, and its paralyzed from the waist down because of it has to say about the game that is so "wrong"

"Richard Castaldo, one of the students injured that day, had a different take. He is paralyzed from the waist down after being shot in the back, chest, arm and abdomen. He's a gamer -- he wants to be a sound engineer for games -- and he's played the Columbine game. There are some parts that were tough for him, the 24-year-old said, but he thought the game has a unique take on that day. "It's weird for me to say this, I guess, but there's something about it that I appreciated, seeing the game from the killers' perspective," Castaldo said."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901979_2.html

This guy, who was directly affected by the incident sees the game for what it actually is, because even tho it pained him to think about and begin playing it, he did before he judged and claimed it to be what everyone else said. And that is highly respectable that he took that time out regardless of the personal pains from it, and learned that it was much more than what anyone thought. This is opinion based on personal experience and not someone elses word. im sure he, like i and all others flipped and were disgusted when they heard it was a game.

Its not saying much to base your opinion on anothers words at all.
you dont have to play the game. But for the final time, dont call it what it isnt because you DO NOT know.

the reasons you offer are your not playing it because you were directly affected, Respectable.
Your calling the game sick and absurd when you never played it and dont know if its sick or absurd, not respectable.
 
Chasym I think what would clear this up alot more is if you watch the video of the game the OP provides and listen in between 1:45 - 2:12 I think it is. That sums up my point fairly nicely. Because I am not calling the game sick and disgusting although I have said it to be disrespectful. Mainly what I have been saying is that because it is a game and it has a cathartic goal in mind it is inherently problematic considering video games place as a medium at the time. I am going to play the game mainly to read some of the creator's descriptions in the rpg dialogue. I would prefer not to so it would be helpful if someone can just provide them for me. IE descriptions of objects seen as provocations to violence (whether or not they are).

BTW: I want to see that movie, I've seen the reviews, but the advertising for it still made me intrigued. Bad horro/scary movies are good horror/scary movies to me anyway.
 
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Tried downloading it off the site, all I got was a corrupt file. I'm not reinstalling Limewire on my computer to get it either.

Anyways, back to the parts of Chasym's post I wasn't going to talk about until after I played it.

You have a limited conception of the term knowledge. It is stored information, information can be gathered first or second hand. Either means that information is gathered is processed and made a judgement upon (meaning you don't just recieve information and take it for what it is). First hand information is generally more reliable in that straight up fabrications (besides the one's people make for themselves) are usually mitigated. Nonethelees information gained second handedly is still used in order to make a judgement and constitute knowledge of a subject. This is why you go to school for 12-16 years instead of just being thrown into everything you learn in a real life context, it allows you to gain a wide breadth of information and is a legitimate part of "knowledge". This is why people read the newspaper, why people read magazines, read books, watch documentaries, play socially-concious video games.

I don't limit myself based on other people's opinions, but I do take them into account and then form my own opinions on it. I can tease people's motivations apart very easily so I am very critical of other opinions and never just take them as are. What is probably most telling is that probably half of the information on the game specifically from this forum and the other half from the same 5 google'd sites as you, which are all mainly positive accounts of the game, so if I were to just be spoon fed information I'd be jumping on your and the other sites bandwagons, but I am not. I am taking second hand information that I tend to think reliable although containing some natural bias and making a conclusion from that knowledge.

The same Washington Post article offers other opinions which you do not note. Im sure Richard finds it interesting seeing he wants to be a game designer and had a greater impetus to play it. The article offers more than what you do in that one excerpt so I encourage people to read it. Im more willing to take Brooks' opinion on it seeing as he wrote a book on it, he also used to be in the debate program I was in and did quite well. He was also friends with Eric and Dylan.

In the end, anyone who sees video games as a type of artform have to understand that it carries the same issue which is no matter what every piece of art is interpretted differently. I have not played the game but from trailers, screenshots and people's articles/opinions I think I have as good of a grasp on it as Chasym does who has played it for 10 minutes...and it is a 5 hour long game.

EDIT: Also, if you look at the Mauser's reaction you can probably tell why I think the video game medium is problematic. I doubt the reaction would have been the same if it was a film or book. I'm not saying that video games should be taken more seriously as a medium at some point in time, but they are not now because they really do not have the characteristics of great pieces of literature and art. Some may say that the author purposefully chose the medium in order to question the idea of a video game causing violence when his is supposed to in fact prevent it, but I doubt it. He is a quasi filmmaker with limited resources and doesn't plan on making another video game again. If he were so bent on preaching the cause of socially acceptable video games I'm sure he would plan on continuing his work in it.
 
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well it says with use of the guide it can be done in 20 minutes.
if i didnt want you to see the other quotes i wouldnt have posted the link, but that was the one that stood out the most. Someone that lost alot in it seeing it for what it is.
i know the concept of knowledge and learning things based off of what was recorded, things we cannot just go experience because its gone and past, This is something you can experience if you want or not experience if you dont want to, its not something we have no choice to do but read about and gather info, we can actually go right to the source and experience the media first hand.
i encourage people to read the article to, why else would i post the link...
but honestly this topic got tired, i wont shift nor will you and thats completley fine with me, i wasnt trying to shift you just havin a debate...and ive said everything almost repeativley so im just gonna let the topic die now, If you do end up playin the game lemme know, Im tryin to fix my video problem to see if i can get that annoying problem fixed and finish the game.
ill try booting in vista later.
 
Chasym said:
well it says with use of the guide it can be done in 20 minutes.
if i didnt want you to see the other quotes i wouldnt have posted the link, but that was the one that stood out the most. Someone that lost alot in it seeing it for what it is.
i know the concept of knowledge and learning things based off of what was recorded, things we cannot just go experience because its gone and past, This is something you can experience if you want or not experience if you dont want to, its not something we have no choice to do but read about and gather info, we can actually go right to the source and experience the media first hand.
i encourage people to read the article to, why else would i post the link...
but honestly this topic got tired, i wont shift nor will you and thats completley fine with me, i wasnt trying to shift you just havin a debate...and ive said everything almost repeativley so im just gonna let the topic die now, If you do end up playin the game lemme know, Im tryin to fix my video problem to see if i can get that annoying problem fixed and finish the game.
ill try booting in vista later.

The second hand information isn't unique to stuff you can't experience. It is applicable to almost everything, things that are happening right now and perhaps even locally.

Funny thing is I can't get a good download of it and I don't plan on spending hours and hours of my time trying to get one that does work for a game I probably won't like, I'm picky enough as is when it comes to video games.

I am going to go watch Meerkat Manor...sheeat.

I knd of want to untype my last edit about the Mauser's, I know them fairly well and they are a tad bit radical, not the most unbiased source. Brooks' definitely is though, he's kind of pompous but still.
 
Mandatory abortion laws
 
Completed the game, was too easy. :<
 
What happens after you beat all the demons in hell?
 
Bustaballs said:
What happens after you beat all the demons in hell?

Dante writes another section his book.
 
Mattaru said:
Dante writes another section his book.


That reminds me.. I've yet to read that book. I need to grab it sometime whenever I'm done with "The Anarchist Cookbook". I'm also reading through a Benjamin Franklin biography and Michael Crichton's newest book called "Next".
 
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