Criminally Responsible

Mirewen

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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html

Spoiler:
Vince Li has been found not criminally responsible for the unprovoked killing and beheading of fellow passenger Timothy McLean on a Greyhound bus last summer.

Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench Judge John Scurfield said Thursday that Li, 40, could not be found guilty of murder and is not criminally responsible for the crime because he was mentally ill at the time of the killing.

"These grotesque acts are appalling... but are suggestive of a mental disorder," the judge said.

"He did not appreciate the act he committed was wrong."

Li had pleaded not guilty to a charge of second-degree murder. Psychiatric evidence at his trial suggested he is a schizophrenic who suffered a major psychotic episode last July 30 when he fatally stabbed McLean, 22, ate some of the body parts, and cut off McLean's head.

For five hours after the killing, Li wandered around on the bus, defiling the body while an RCMP tactical team waited to subdue him.

Rather than go to prison, Li will be kept in a secure psychiatric facility, most likely in Selkirk, Man.

McLean, a carnival worker, was returning home to Winnipeg on the bus from Edmonton. Listening to his iPod while sitting in the back row of Greyhound bus 1170, he gave Li a friendly greeting as the stranger sat down beside him.

Then, around 8:30 p.m. CT, when the bus was near Portage La Prairie, Man., Li pulled a buck knife from his side and began stabbing McLean — for no apparent reason, witnesses said. After passengers fled the bus, by then on the side of the Trans-Canada Highway, Li was barricaded inside the vehicle.

During the stabbing, Li was heard to say, "get emergency." During the five-hour standoff, he walked around the bus carrying the severed head in one hand, the knife in the other. At one point, he threw McLean's head into the bus's stairwell.

When police finally subdued him, Li repeatedly said he was sorry but could not say what he was sorry for, officers said. He told police he had changed his name to Vince Day. And he said, "I'm guilty, please kill me."

Psychiatrists testified Li was schizophrenic and suffering a major psychotic episode at the time of the killing.

Li heard voices from God telling him that McLean was an evil threat that needed to be eliminated, the psychiatrists said. Even after the killing, Li believed McLean might come back to life and threaten him. The psychiatrists testified Li fit the criteria for someone who was not criminally responsible for their actions due to mental illness.

That means he will be sent to a provincial psychiatric facility rather than to prison. He comes under the jurisdiction of Manitoba's provincial review board, which will decide whether he poses a risk to the public. The review board has the power to keep Li locked up indefinitely or, if he is no longer considered a risk, discharge him.

In his written ruling, the judge said those who are profoundly ill do not have the mental capacity to intentionally commit a crime. "It is clear that since the 19th century the law has distinguished between those persons who commit criminal acts because of a mental disorder and sane persons," Scurfield said.

McLean's family had been lobbying for a change in the Criminal Code to prevent mentally ill killers from eventually being returned to the community. His mother, Carol de Delley, said after the ruling that she would do everything in her power to ensure Li is never released from secure custody.

"I think it's ridiculous that we've not only had to endure this procedure but we get to endure it every year again for the rest of Mr. Li's natural life," de Delley said, describing Li as dangerous. She urged Canadians to lobby politicians for changes to the Criminal Code.

"Bear in mind, this isn't going to be saving any of us, we've already had our loss," she said. "It's to save everybody else. And that's been put on us now. And we sure as hell didn't volunteer for that job, but it is ours now."

Li's lawyer, Gordon Bates, said after the ruling that his client has felt remorse and understands what has occurred. He said Li had no message for the McLean family on Thursday but that he has in the past expressed a wish to make amends is looking forward to treatment of his illness.

Going to withhold my thoughts at the moment.
 
I won't; they should grant his wish that he made when he was caught.

I have little tolerance for people like that, regardless of mental capacity.
 
I won't; they should grant his wish that he made when he was caught.

I have little tolerance for people like that, regardless of mental capacity.

I agree. There is no excuse for what he's done, even if he had a mental illness.
 
/sigh.. I read about this yesterday...

I have to say .. I, if the man is clinically sick.. that's one thing.. but there's no rehabilitation .. drugs yes but. I can't even finish my thoughts. Okay yes I think he should be put to death, that's not an option here...what kills me is that he will live.. he will probably live the rest of his natural life AND being that he may very well be mentally ill he probably won't ever fully understand or feel the remorse one needs to in order to be considered slightly rehabilitated. This STILL stings.

The details, eye witnesses stating that he was 'almost robot like' all suggests he is in fact mentally ill. I've spent time with schizophrenics and they're waaaaay out there at the best of times. I don't see the harm in being rid of this man. He's not a native to our country, he was granted acceptance into our country.. he bounced around from shit job to shit job not staying long anywhere he was. He murdered a young man. He is literally sick in the head and now WE'RE going to pay for him to be watched and cared for fulltime for the rest of his natural life....

*****emphasis on WE'RE, that INCLUDES the family of the boy he murdered!!!!!
 
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My main point on this issue is that even though he didn't *like* what he was doing (only a truly twisted individual would), he *knew* what he was doing, and knew that it was wrong.

Grant his wish, be done with him.

End of story.
 
My main point on this issue is that even though he didn't *like* what he was doing (only a truly twisted individual would), he *knew* what he was doing, and knew that it was wrong.

Grant his wish, be done with him.

End of story.

He would have to be deported back to China in order for that to happen, and our Government won't send someone away to their death. We're too soft.
 
This is just as bad as the defense lawyer of the teenage girl who ordered her boyfriend to kill another girl is 'not criminally responsible for first degree murder'.
 
Actions > Intentions

Whether or not the guy knew what he was doing is not important... he should be locked up or executed. I'd lean towards executed.
 
There IS no rehabilitation. There IS no "getting better". There is a man who brutally murdered another person that he didn't even know. Anyone could have been sitting next to him and the outcome would have been the same. He decapitated the man, ate parts of his body then walked up and down the isle of the bus while holding the mans head in his hands. Now instead of rotting in prison or getting the death penalty, he gets to sit in an asylum/sanitarium while getting meds and being examined by psychiatrists.
 
A life sentence is a fair alternative to capital punishment, and providing necessary medical treatment is humane. Canada should be proud of itself in that regard. The part of the sentence I disagreed with in this case is that he'll receive yearly psychiatric reviews to determine if he's fit for release. I don't think he should ever be determined fit for release. The hospital he's sent to should be a prison asylum and it should be for life. If he's kept in a hospital away from whatever stimulus triggers his insanity, I wonder if he'll be judged fit for release prematurely.
 
There IS no rehabilitation. There IS no "getting better". There is a man who brutally murdered another person that he didn't even know. Anyone could have been sitting next to him and the outcome would have been the same. He decapitated the man, ate parts of his body then walked up and down the isle of the bus while holding the mans head in his hands. Now instead of rotting in prison or getting the death penalty, he gets to sit in an asylum/sanitarium while getting meds and being examined by psychiatrists.

All of which costs the hard working law abiding citizens of this country money. Ya.. burns huh.

A life sentence is a fair alternative to capital punishment, and providing necessary medical treatment is humane. Canada should be proud of itself in that regard. The part of the sentence I disagreed with in this case is that he'll receive yearly psychiatric reviews to determine if he's fit for release. I don't think he should ever be determined fit for release. The hospital he's sent to should be a prison asylum and it should be for life. If he's kept in a hospital away from whatever stimulus triggers his insanity, I wonder if he'll be judged fit for release prematurely.

Being sick in the head is what triggers it, medication merely nullifies the natural disorder within that mans brain.

If Canada were to see fit deporting him back to China for sentencing he would likely be put to death.

There's no guarantee they would do anything at all and that is another reason this Government wouldn't see fit to deport him.
 
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Well it has happened before. Someone gets put in an asylum for being "mentally unfit to stand trial" regarding a murder he commited. After a few years of Psychiatric "help" he was deemed fit to re-enter society. Idk, maybe to be given a second chance? Hey guys, THIS time if he does it we KNOW he's not insane!

I'd rather him be locked up in a jail but get visits from a shrink. That way he can still serve a life sentence and if they ever think he is "cured" (which is actually impossible btw, you cannot cure a mental illness you can only surpress it with drugs) he can be serve it with the rest of the inmates.
 
Yeah, that's my whole thing. Let's say the drugs work and he's a normalish fellow when on them. There is no guarantee he'd stay on the drugs. Someone who has psychotic episodes that are that violent is a danger to themselves and society. Under no circumstance should he be left to his own devices. Ever.
 
Yeah, that's my whole thing. Let's say the drugs work and he's a normalish fellow when on them. There is no guarantee he'd stay on the drugs. Someone who has psychotic episodes that are that violent is a danger to themselves and society. Under no circumstance should he be left to his own devices. Ever.

Well yes.

I mean, I'm thinking prison is where you send criminals and most with the possibility or goal of rehabilitation... for release.

I'm fighting with myself on this one only because if he were being sentenced to prison time we'd ultimately be paying for this 'sick' individual (clinically or not when talking murder) to remain under 24/7 watch for countless years.

Though being sentenced to remain in a psychiatric hospital he'll be under 24/7 watch/care, being fed medication to remain as independently capable as possible as a 'medically ill' patient with no chance of rehabilitation. He will not die from his disorder but will forever be a menace to society, never to be trusted fully.

I can understand how many people may say "he has a disorder it wouldn't be right/moral etc", but I can't see the purpose or positive outcome of letting these people live among us.


Why do majority of Canadians not support the death penalty? ~~ I ask because this case calls for it imo ~~
 
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Why do majority of Canadians not support the death penalty? ~~ I ask because this case calls for it imo ~~

I don't because nothing calls for Death. Nothing you could ever do, should be punishable by death. Punishment administered by humans anyway. If you were to say, wrestle a tiger with your bare hands, you could argue that is punishable by death, but it's administered in a whole different fashion.

To put it through another angle, think about those involved to execute someone. Are they not guilty of murder? How do you punish murder while condoning it? If it isn't murder, what makes it different? Because someone said it isn't? Because 12 peers and a judge said it isn't? That hardly changes things.

Yes, there are other ways, and yes those other ways suck for the rest of us, but at least it isn't murder.
 
I don't because nothing calls for Death. Nothing you could ever do, should be punishable by death. Punishment administered by humans anyway. If you were to say, wrestle a tiger with your bare hands, you could argue that is punishable by death, but it's administered in a whole different fashion.

To put it through another angle, think about those involved to execute someone. Are they not guilty of murder? How do you punish murder while condoning it? If it isn't murder, what makes it different? Because someone said it isn't? Because 12 peers and a judge said it isn't? That hardly changes things.

Yes, there are other ways, and yes those other ways suck for the rest of us, but at least it isn't murder.


Bolded: That's the only thing I was fighting myself about. How can WE decide. However, deep down I feel this man is no use to society in any way. He cannot contribute, he only hinders. He hinders us ALL in different ways.
 
I don't because nothing calls for Death. Nothing you could ever do, should be punishable by death. Punishment administered by humans anyway. If you were to say, wrestle a tiger with your bare hands, you could argue that is punishable by death, but it's administered in a whole different fashion.

To put it through another angle, think about those involved to execute someone. Are they not guilty of murder? How do you punish murder while condoning it? If it isn't murder, what makes it different? Because someone said it isn't? Because 12 peers and a judge said it isn't? That hardly changes things.

Yes, there are other ways, and yes those other ways suck for the rest of us, but at least it isn't murder.

there is a difference between killing and murder just by the definition of the words. you dont need a judge and jury to tell you its not murder.
 
Normally i frown upon the death penalty, more on the chance of a mis-conviction than anything else. But when there is a case like this, even people on the line find anything but the death penalty being let off easy.
 
Insane or not, keep that mother fucker away from me for the rest of his life. I think it's crazy that we think we understand the human brain enough to determine what causes someone to cut a strangers head off.
 
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