Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

Religion to me is mostly opinon based which goes back to what alyada said about free will, we all have a choice in what we want to believe or not believe and for a court to decide wheather or not Jesus exsisted is bull to me. Athiest have the free choice to not believe and should let the christians buddist, Muslims, etc. believe what they want and not always tring to bring them down for it.

This case brings me back to freshmen history class where i had an athiest history teacher that actually said that Jesus did exist at one time, but never mentioned him as son of man or dieing on the cross.
 
Valoran: I'm just going to respond to two things: free will and the first mover (what I was talking about with Aquinas).

My opinion isn't that of "this is the objectively moral set of principles laid down by god and I can disobey then if I please" kind of free will, it is in a different sense. If God is the creator, I can only make choices because I was creted so, even if I'm given free will to deny an objective truth (whether it actually be a truth or not) it is because it is still in control of another. If God exists and he/she has a set of objective principles if you choose not to believe it doesnt change the fact that they are there and even more so it would make you irrational not to. True freedom is not compatiable with a purposed creator, purpose of a creator confines your existence.

Also, the God being without time argument is sound, but its a word game. When a possible dilemma concerning God (or any matter of faith) occurs for some reason religious scholars believe it is necessary to reconcile a logical explanation with faith, but its a religion, there is only a need to if you think you must win the hearts of parishoners and others through their appeal to logic and not to faith. Its pretty easy to do this by simply tweaking the way we view God and his ways. How can one reconcile free will with God? Its easy, simply change your idea on how God views time, put it into a somewaht logical form ie a syllogism and wala its fixed.

The prime mover: Aquinas is probably most famous for coining the term nihilo ex nihil, nothing cromes from nothing. How can somethingness come from nothingness? This is where Aquinas' (similar to Aristotle's) proof of God comes from, God is the unmoved mover who is the something all something comes from. Now for christians and/or any other religion this creates problems, God is essentially a fill in the blank, Aquinas' logic may (getting to that in a second) be correct, but why just add to the end of it the Christian God versus Vishnu and Krishna etc. If you are going to dismantle a philosophical theory you generally must do it in the metaphysic. Something from something is a causal link, all logic is based on causal links. Is it based on that because the Universe IS causal links or because logic IS causal links? For instance, imagine if there was a metaphysical constant barren of any causal links, it would be untrue supposedly because logic could not give it an explanation. Now is this untrue because it is irrational or is it just a failing of logic, a limit to logic. Aquinas' something comes from something ironically enough stems from his unquestioned belief in logic to answer all our questions, his belief that everything is a causal link. Logical, a priori truths make sense because they are viewed only through the lense of logic, which is mans main trait. I'm not saying be irrational, I'm saying realize the precariousness in believing in metaphysical absolutes via logic, then.....you can take it on faith. There are other cases against Aquinas' proof that I cant remember off the top of my head, but this is my personal one.

As I said before I am an atheist of an existential persuasion. Meaning I place value on absurdity and take leaps of faith to embrace reason as a tool. In my high school philosophy class (which was a very good class, but Ive been well versed in certain philosophy for at least 3 years before that) my final was a logical argument on how logic is flawed, on how a priori logic is not always a tool to disclose truth but to create it, how people's epistomological capabilities are bound although we like to think it is not. Only my teacher got it really.....of course the glaring contradiction was that it was a reasoned argument, but that was exactly the point. There is no right way because everything is equally correct, and its only equally correct in the fact that it isnt wrong. Things are only more right or better because ones personal preferences and logical assumptions place them in a hierarchy. These habits suit people because it works for them, but dont go assuming that it is more than it is. You may ask, in such utter relativism how can people co-exist? We form societies and give ourselves rules and principles to follow in order to be more succesful, I think religion is one of these things, I think God is one of these things.
 
Mattaru said:
Valoran: I'm just going to respond to two things: free will and the first mover (what I was talking about with Aquinas).

My opinion isn't that of "this is the objectively moral set of principles laid down by god and I can disobey then if I please" kind of free will, it is in a different sense. If God is the creator, I can only make choices because I was creted so, even if I'm given free will to deny an objective truth (whether it actually be a truth or not) it is because it is still in control of another. If God exists and he/she has a set of objective principles if you choose not to believe it doesnt change the fact that they are there and even more so it would make you irrational not to. True freedom is not compatiable with a purposed creator, purpose of a creator confines your existence.

Would you have rather not been created at all? I liked the rest of your opinion, however. It's one I held for a while too.
 
I'd be down for existence, it wouldn't be like slavery or anything I believe.
 
Mattaru said:
Valoran: I'm just going to respond to two things: free will and the first mover (what I was talking about with Aquinas).

My opinion isn't that of "this is the objectively moral set of principles laid down by god and I can disobey then if I please" kind of free will, it is in a different sense. If God is the creator, I can only make choices because I was creted so, even if I'm given free will to deny an objective truth (whether it actually be a truth or not) it is because it is still in control of another. If God exists and he/she has a set of objective principles if you choose not to believe it doesnt change the fact that they are there and even more so it would make you irrational not to. True freedom is not compatiable with a purposed creator, purpose of a creator confines your existence.

Also, the God being without time argument is sound, but its a word game. When a possible dilemma concerning God (or any matter of faith) occurs for some reason religious scholars believe it is necessary to reconcile a logical explanation with faith, but its a religion, there is only a need to if you think you must win the hearts of parishoners and others through their appeal to logic and not to faith. Its pretty easy to do this by simply tweaking the way we view God and his ways. How can one reconcile free will with God? Its easy, simply change your idea on how God views time, put it into a somewaht logical form ie a syllogism and wala its fixed.

The prime mover: Aquinas is probably most famous for coining the term nihilo ex nihil, nothing cromes from nothing. How can somethingness come from nothingness? This is where Aquinas' (similar to Aristotle's) proof of God comes from, God is the unmoved mover who is the something all something comes from. Now for christians and/or any other religion this creates problems, God is essentially a fill in the blank, Aquinas' logic may (getting to that in a second) be correct, but why just add to the end of it the Christian God versus Vishnu and Krishna etc. If you are going to dismantle a philosophical theory you generally must do it in the metaphysic. Something from something is a causal link, all logic is based on causal links. Is it based on that because the Universe IS causal links or because logic IS causal links? For instance, imagine if there was a metaphysical constant barren of any causal links, it would be untrue supposedly because logic could not give it an explanation. Now is this untrue because it is irrational or is it just a failing of logic, a limit to logic. Aquinas' something comes from something ironically enough stems from his unquestioned belief in logic to answer all our questions, his belief that everything is a causal link. Logical, a priori truths make sense because they are viewed only through the lense of logic, which is mans main trait. I'm not saying be irrational, I'm saying realize the precariousness in believing in metaphysical absolutes via logic, then.....you can take it on faith. There are other cases against Aquinas' proof that I cant remember off the top of my head, but this is my personal one.

As I said before I am an atheist of an existential persuasion. Meaning I place value on absurdity and take leaps of faith to embrace reason as a tool. In my high school philosophy class (which was a very good class, but Ive been well versed in certain philosophy for at least 3 years before that) my final was a logical argument on how logic is flawed, on how a priori logic is not always a tool to disclose truth but to create it, how people's epistomological capabilities are bound although we like to think it is not. Only my teacher got it really.....of course the glaring contradiction was that it was a reasoned argument, but that was exactly the point. There is no right way because everything is equally correct, and its only equally correct in the fact that it isnt wrong. Things are only more right or better because ones personal preferences and logical assumptions place them in a hierarchy. These habits suit people because it works for them, but dont go assuming that it is more than it is. You may ask, in such utter relativism how can people co-exist? We form societies and give ourselves rules and principles to follow in order to be more succesful, I think religion is one of these things, I think God is one of these things.

I applaud the obvious thought in this post and the ideas behind it.

I want to zero in, though on one part specifically:

Mattaru said:
My opinion isn't that of "this is the objectively moral set of principles laid down by god and I can disobey then if I please" kind of free will, it is in a different sense. If God is the creator, I can only make choices because I was creted so, even if I'm given free will to deny an objective truth (whether it actually be a truth or not) it is because it is still in control of another. If God exists and he/she has a set of objective principles if you choose not to believe it doesnt change the fact that they are there and even more so it would make you irrational not to. True freedom is not compatiable with a purposed creator, purpose of a creator confines your existence.

Your point about rationality ("it would make you irrational not to") seems to imply that in a world without an intentional creator, we should follow rational principles. Wouldn't you then have to become a slave to reason? That is, haven't you just set up reason as objective truth? It seems to me that the argument can then be extended to claim that if God doesn't exist, the only truly free people are those who believe in God, because they are able to act independently of what is objective truth.

Perhaps you don't see following reason as slavery, but why shouldn't it be? After all, reason will tell you to do things you wouldn't do otherwise. Reason explains the consequences for murder, etc., despite the fact that you might otherwise want to kill someone who annoys you (as surely as high-levels will take a swing at a Yagudo in Sarutabaruta).

I guess my point is, if you want to start with free choice without setting up reason as the objective truth, then there's no difference in any choice, whether you choose religion or science.

(on a side note, I firmly believe that reason can exist within a religious faith, and personally I think it's necessary).
 
Reason, or at least I see it this way, is a constant in religion. Have you read any of the Mystic Poets, like Santa Teresa de Jesús?

I didn't find translations... I'll try to translate as best I can here one of my favorite poems of hers:

Santa Teresa de Jesús said:
I Live Without Living in Myself

I live without living in myself,
and in such a way I hope-
that I die because I do not die.

I live already outside of myself
after I die of love;
because I live in the Lord,
who wanted me for Himself;
when I gave Him my heart
I put in him this sign:
that I die because I do not die.

This divine prison
of love with which I live
has made God my captive,
and free with my heart;
and causes in me such passion
to see God as my prisoner,
that I die because I do not die.

O, how long is this life!
How hard these exiles,
this prison, these irons
in which the soul is inside of!
Only to await the exit
causes me such a ravaging pain,
that I die because I do not die.

O, such bitter life
where one does not enjoy of God!
Because if love is sweet,
a long wait is not.
Take from me this load, God,
heavier than steel,
that I die because I do not die.

Only with the trust
that I should die, I live,
because dying, living,
assures me my hope.
Death where living is reached,
do not take long, that I await you,
that I die because I do not die.

See that love is strong,
life, don't be mean to me;
see that there is only left,
to win you, to lose you.
Come now sweet death,
that death come swiftly,
that I die because I do not die.

That life above
is the true life;
until this life dies,
one cannot enjoy being alive.
Death, do not avoid me;
live dying first,
that I die because I do not die.

Life, what can I give
to my God, that lives in me,
if it is not losing you
so I can better enjoy Him?
I want to die reaching for Him,
because I so love my Love,
that I die because I do not die.

First off, I hope the translation makes sense, second of all, one can see here a type of Philosophy coming from one of the saints of the Catholic Church, saying that she wishes to die so she can attain true joy. This is very interesting for me, because my French teacher once recited a poem for us that was the story of a man searching for joy in this life but never finding it. He only found happiness, but never joy, joy being a constant state of happiness, it is being completely rapt in happiness.

This, I think, is a type of a priori reasoning. It is based on faith, and it gives meaning to her existance.
 
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