DKP system

[wolfskymoon]

Was reading about it n this sytem seems to be the most fair out there.I mean i think every Sky guild should have it to avoide moochers n buddy system to take over.What you guys think?

 

[Rones]

Could you post some links or describe what it is? I don't even know what the abbreviation stands for.

 

[Brin]

Yea.....what Rones said. o.o;;;

 

[Maximilium]

Uh....ditto.

 

[Skaw]

DKP, short for Dragon Kill Points, was created by Thott from Afterlife on EverQuest. You basically earn points for time spent doing the boring endgame activities that net the big rewards. These points act just like currency, which you "cash in" for your rewards.

While it does indeed ween out the moochers, its not exactly a 100% fair method in its basic form, especially in this game. Such as Tanks and Pullers end up working far more than most melees and mages, but still earn the same amount, considering EXP loss for deaths.

 

[Pompidou]

You'd think a straight up point system w/o any "need before greed" or "what's best for the ls" stipulations attached, would be the fairest system. Too many ls out there seem to have a "point system when it's convenient" system, and god forbid a less useful endgame job ever lots on something over a favorite. Yeah, a straight up point system w/o any job preference/favoritism is the fairest I'd say. If the Bard wants the Kirin's Osode, and your favorite Ranger hasn't put in as much time, then screw the Ranger, give it to the Bard. That's fair.

 

[Skaw]

To be honest, Pompidou, Osode isn't grand for a BRD at all. Errant Hopp. is better.

 

[Pompidou]

Yeah maybe, but you could insert any job you like in either slot. I was just trying to stress the idea that point totals should always come before job priority. Even a Blm with the most points should justly be entitled to lot.

 

[Skaw]

I agree, but you shouldn't grab peices that you aren't really going to end up using to benefit the LS, justifying the action with "Well, I've been here longer!"

Don't get that confused with letting the person that just joined get it first because they can make better use out of it, though.

 

[Tyrath]

I agree, but you shouldn't grab peices that you aren't really going to end up using to benefit the LS, justifying the action with "Well, I've been here longer!"

Personally I think if you put in the time, then you deserve to get items even if it will benefit someone else a bit more. Perhaps it'd be nice if you let the person have the item, but you deserve it if you put in more time :|

But then again, this is coming from the drk with w legs:spiteful:

 

[Pompidou]

The whole LS>you, need>greed, let job X have everything situation is one of the things that's turned me away from most likely ever participating in endgame. Especially need>greed, since that rule only applies when melee gear is involved, and not when expensive mage scrolls are involved.

 

[GhostinmyShell]

What do you want to know about DKP? My guild in WoW uses a DKP system.

The system is actually pretty fair however it needs to be strongly enforced and changed to fit the needs of the group. It has it's plusses and minuses so it's not the holy grail as everyone seems to exaggerate.

 

[Zoolander]

Sounds exactly like ESP's system of bidding. One hour farming or doing gods is one point, and one lead is designated to take down points at start of events, with totals kept track of online. We used to have a priority system, but eventually moved toward no priorities. Priority is just expected to be put into the hands of the bidders, like a bard passing on byakko's haidate for a 75 ninja that really needs even tho the bard could win the lot. But the general belief is that "They are your points, spend them as you like."

I think Kaizen has a system similar to this and probably others as well, and I think its the best way. People get what they put in with points system. Somtimes theres weird point amounts for a certain item, like 50 points (hours) for N. Hands when two people go all in, but another phrase I preach is "Bid what the item is worth to you, expect to lose 50 if you bid 50." You can avoid that with caps, but you run into some troubles with that as well.

Also theres no favoritism with a points system. You want Kirin's Osode, you put in the time and you can get it. How fast depends on you. I never understood why drops would be decided by a leader(s). As one of three leads, I don't want and shouldn't have the power to decide so. Leads should be so because they want to be, not so that they can get gear first for themselves or get their asses kissed from people who want to get gear, which unfortunately is/has been the case in some shells...

 

[Sculli]

DKP is just a name anymore really. There are so many different variations out there that one couldn't possibly count them all.

Fairness is a very relative term, because there is rarely any one case where all those who are involved could agree on a solution that would seem fair to everyone. This is especially true when more and more people are involved.

I have been in DKP guilds, and I have been in merit based guilds throughout my MMO career. From personal experience I can say that merit based guilds are better as a guild, and better as a team, there is no question about it in my mind. However, merit based guilds tend to not work well once there are too many people involved, too many people who do not know each other personally well.

When it comes to a DKP system, players often believe that they have a choice. Many if not all players believe that they can join a guild, and then change the DKP system in such a way that they believe is fair, or more fair than the current system is.

This is a big mistake.

When you join a guild that is using a DKP system, you better can put up with the current system, because if you can not, then there will be trouble, tears, and drama.

That's the only advice I have really.

 

[Sculli]

Leads should be so because they want to be, not so that they can get gear first for themselves ...

Good merit based guild leaders would very rarely equip themselves first. Those who do disproportionally equip themselves first rarely keep leading a guild.

 

[Zoolander]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that the points system I've seen is unfair...quite the opposite actually. WSM was refering to Sky LS's specifically as well, where there are numerous drops that have to be dealt with on a daily basis. Theres not really even much to change in a points system except for petty details if you dont have any priority system. (Stupid shit like if one person DCs during bidding and we finish it right as he gets back, can he still bid..) Points system also makes it pretty fair with a group that can exceed 50 people at any one time as well as pretty managable.

I'm not really sure what you meant by merit system, I'm guessing just a general consensus(sp?) on who gets what first and so on...which could be great with a small, tight group...but in somthing as massive as a sky LS with 30-50+ members...

 

[GhostinmyShell]

...but in somthing as massive as a sky LS with 30-50+ members...

Try sorting this shit out with 500-1000 people involved and it turns into a huge headache

A smaller group like yours has a system in place that fits your needs, that's awesome if it works out for you. You should probably post more info about your system so others can learn from it.

 

[Zoolander]

Good merit based guild leaders would very rarely equip themselves first. Those who do disproportionally equip themselves first rarely keep leading a guild.

Ah, we're kinda thinking about different things. I'm an MMO noob...ffxi is my first. The OP was refering to the use of DKP in Sky/Gods LS's. As far as leads equiping themselves first and staying leads, yea its happened but no need to name names...I dont need enemies XD

Edit to ghosts post: Lol 500 ppl ok...see I dont know shit outside of this MMO lol...and I'd gladly talk to anyone about points system..been living and breathing ever detail of it for the last like 8 months >.<

 

[Sculli]

Merit system is what I call a system where those who lead the guild make the decision who gets which drops. The result is often that the guild is stronger and thus everyone gets better drops faster than through the DKP system.

A simplified example from EQ (because I really don't know enough about end-game FFXI: In order to beat a certain mob, you need a warrior that has 10,000 hit points, and you need 3 clerics (whm in EQ) that are able to have a healing chain set up that they can sustain for 180 seconds.

Unless the guild has a warrior and three clerics who can do this, they can not kill a certain mob, no matter how hard they try, it's simply not possible.

In a DKP system, no one warrior is initially favored, everyone who participates equally has a more or less equal shot at whatever drop to improve their warrior. This results in a dozen mediocre equipped warriors, none of which has 10,000 hit points. It takes weeks to make the dozen warriors mediocre, and probably months to make one of them outstanding enough to break 10,000 hitpoints. The same with the three clerics.

In a merit system, the guild recognizes the need to have a warrior to break 10,000 hit points. The guilds goal is to kill this one boss mob, kill him over and over to get good loot. In order to kill the boss they need a 10,000 hit point warrior, and three awesome clerics. The guild does everything they can to gear those four people up as quickly as possible, and they spends weeks and months killing the boss the DKP guild can only dream about at that point.

DKP systems are getting more flawed the longer they run. Long standing members accumulate more points than they could ever spend, and feel entitled to bid on gear they don't need, just to spend points. etc etc. One could write a book on all the pitfalls of DKP systems, from attendance, to distribution, to point decay, to point caps, to spending caps, it's like a neverending spiral.

For many guilds (linkshells) a DKP system is the only workable solution, and as long as those who participate realize that no DKP system is perfect, it's all good.

 

[Zoolander]

Ah, well in a game like that it would make sense to have a merit system. God gear is not necessary to kill anything, just easier/safer depending on the gear/job getting the gear.