Do People Believe Things Into Existance?

[Halifirien]

Meh. I'd rather not get into dissecting which myth is more correct than the other. The only reason I jumped into this thread is because Ruffy was equating knowledge gained through science and reasoning with knowledge gained from mythology.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

A) i thought there was nothing before the bible? 6000 is alot older than the bible.
B) If you are part of one of the "Pure" christian segments does that mean you hate homosexuals? as that is one of the major changes lately (although in catholocism mainly). Are you one of the people who picketed the VT funerals/rememberance because god hates america? Because apparently they are following the bible exactly.

No, Im not. I know Im a sinner, in no way am I pure.

I dont hate homosexuals, I have a few gay friends. I dont support them, but that doesnt mean I hate them. But I dont really understand how Homoesexuality can be inscribed into someones DNA, when they have the choice not to be. Its no different than choosing to love, or hate someone.

My religion is apparently very small in comparison to all the others, because youre bandwagoning me with things that I have absolutely no recollection to.

 

[Rinoah]

The bible is not written by one man, but by many men. This is how it can be misinterpreted, because it is written by several mens view points, not just one. It does not contradict itself at all. The Bible really was not written as people seem to think. Dont think of it was a text purely made to be handed down in that way. Its like a handful of journal entries, no different than if you take a handful of them from WWII veterans and slap them together in a book. Each and every writer will have their own views of what happened, and what they think of it.

Now, the bold part. Never, in 19 years of my life, have I ever read any of that. Never. I dont know what Bible youre reading.

It's quite a well known quote, a google search turned it up instantly as i had forgotten the number. If your looking for me to point where in the bible it says it then that is rather foolish, do i look or sound like the sort of person who reads the bible?

That may be so. But if parts of it is wrong who is to say what else is wrong?

 

[Alyada]

I dont hate homosexuals, I have a few gay friends. I dont support them, but that doesnt mean I hate them. But I dont really understand how Homoesexuality can be inscribed into someones DNA, when they have the choice not to be. Its no different than choosing to love, or hate someone.

No, no. This statement makes absolutely no sense. Homosexuals do not choose to only love dick, they are attracted to the dick. They can choose to live a horrible life of sex with women but they can't help what they're attracted to.

For more information, see how much it fucks up families in Brokeback Mountain. Seriously, you'd think Fundies would understand that you can't hide who you are even if society doesn't like it.

 

[Rinoah]

No, Im not. I know Im a sinner, in no way am I pure.

I dont hate homosexuals, I have a few gay friends. I dont support them, but that doesnt mean I hate them. But I dont really understand how Homoesexuality can be inscribed into someones DNA, when they have the choice not to be. Its no different than choosing to love, or hate someone.

My religion is apparently very small in comparison to all the others, because youre bandwagoning me with things that I have absolutely no recollection to.

Well you said you stuck to the original bible and haven't gone along with any of the "changes" such a change is homosexuals. But the people who stick to the bible without any changes apparently are the people who hate everything (which apparently is what the bible tells them to hate) and picketed the poor peoples funerals.

Whats DNA got to do with it? It's free choice. Never got drunk and kissed a guy? I'm guessing no but you'd be suprised how common it is probably. Not that kissing a guy while drunk makes you gay...just pointing out that DNA doesn't affect it, it is a choice and different people take different options.

When i said choice, i meant personal preferance more than anything. Still nothing to do with DNA.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

#1Well you said you stuck to the original bible and haven't gone along with any of the "changes" such a change is homosexuals. But the people who stick to the bible without any changes apparently are the people who hate everything (which apparently is what the bible tells them to hate) and picketed the poor peoples funerals.

When i said choice, i meant personal preferance more than anything. Still nothing to do with DNA.

#2Whats DNA got to do with it? It's free choice. Never got drunk and kissed a guy? I'm guessing no but you'd be suprised how common it is probably. Not that kissing a guy while drunk makes you gay...just pointing out that DNA doesn't affect it, it is a choice and different people take different options.

#1 The Bible never says anything about hating anyone, but instead about not falling under the influence of their habits, or supporting them. The people at the funerals are the odd bible beaters, just like the kaykaykay (letters are *'d out...) are. Religion has its fuck ups much like the general society has theirs.

#2 Not using this as a totally credible source (lol DSC) but there was coverage on people and 'disorders,' some of the things being ADD, homosexuality, and the criminal mind. The 'doctors' on there did not believe any of these people had a choice to do the things they do/did, it was meant to be that way because of their gene's. Which is bullshit, but this could just be because of DSC lawls

 

[Uzor]

Religion does have its backing, in history. People can deny the existance of God, but Jesus was there, flesh and blood, along with everything that happened while he lived. This is one of the key things thats often overlooked or ignored. Science wasnt near as advanced then as it is today, so what he did simply is not possible by scientific means

Jesus may or may not have existed. But there is no proof he did any of the things he performed, other then through text.

For an example, there is no proof, anywhere, in any astronomigal documents, that there was a bright star shining within 40 years of Jesus birth. The only sighting, was a comet. A comet, however, was considered bad luck.

Additionally, there is also a song, which I sadly don't remember the name of, but that I can look up later, that say that Judas, after feeling great guilt and regret for what he did to Jesus, took his place on the cross. Thus, Judas died on the cross, and Jesus survived, hence the "resurrection". This was edited out of the bible. There is also a similar part, explaining the same thing from someone elses point of view, in the Koran.

Additionally, no one really knows Jesus true birth place, as its been changed twice in the bible. Hell, no one even knows the exact date, nor year, he was born. That was all made up by the bible. The reason we celebrate it on 24th (25th in USA) is because that's the winter solastice, which is highly celebrated in a lot of ancient religions. Including Mithraism, which was one of the larger religiong in Rome and a llot of other countries.

Not only that, in the very same religions, you also celebrate your God etc. by drinking his blood and eating his body.

I'd write more, but I'm currently in Assault/Salvage

#1 The Bible never says anything about hating anyone, but instead about not falling under the influence of their habits, or supporting them. The people at the funerals are the odd bible beaters, just like the kaykaykay (letters are *'d out...) are. Religion has its fuck ups much like the general society has theirs.

Yeah, but they still say homosexuality is a sin and shoudl be punished, adn they shoudl be hated. At the very same time, all animals perform sexual acts Homosexuality is natural, and all animals have same-gender sex. You also get the feeling from the bible that God hates anyone that don't believe in him. So the bible is hypocritical in pretty much all of its preachings.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

Just to throw it in, there are thousands of people that believe Dan Browns books (we all know, the Da Vinci Code and such) are fact, even when he plainly says on the back cover that its a work of fiction. He clearly states that the historical part of the book is untrue, but people still believe it to be so. Hell, there are still documentaries on television about the Da Vinci code, and how its 'real.'

 

[Ruffyreborn]

Yeah, but they still say homosexuality is a sin and shoudl be punished, adn they shoudl be hated. At the very same time, all animals perform sexual acts Homosexuality is natural, and all animals have same-gender sex. You also get the feeling from the bible that God hates anyone that don't believe in him. So the bible is hypocritical in pretty much all of its preachings.

The Bibles never states that God hates anyone. It does however say that there is only one way to get into heaven, which seems to be a big problem because people dont like to conform. But every one of us has a choice whether to follow that or not, so its not up to God, but up to us as individuals.

Rinoah himself said he hasnt read the Bible, but tells me how much it contradicts itself. Have you read the Bible? If so, was it a King James?

It seems most Bible Bashers (not really meaning this offensively) havent read or have much knowledge of the Bible at all

 

[Uzor]

The Bibles never states that God hates anyone. It does however say that there is only one way to get into heaven, which seems to be a big problem because people dont like to conform. But every one of us has a choice whether to follow that or not, so its not up to God, but up to us as individuals.

Rinoah himself said he hasnt read the Bible, but tells me how much it contradicts itself. Have you read the Bible? If so, was it a King James?

It seems most Bible Bashers (not really meaning this offensively) havent read or have much knowledge of the Bible at all

The bible have changed a lot. First, they removed some of the original texts, and split them up in to NEw Testament and Old Testament. Basically, Judism and christianity. They also translated the original texts, and thus, a bit was lost in translation. Then they also removed a few texts, but which texts were removed depends on the country, and direction of christianity "Catholism, Prostantism etc.). After that, they translated them a few mroe times, and also changed the language to newer, more modern way of speaking. So a lot of it was changed, removed, edited etc.

If you want to go deeper in to it, the bible have horrible stories that have been removed. They also preach the same thing about women being less worth then men, and women having to cover themselves in clothing, to not tempt the men. We've just chosen to not follow those parts.

And yes, I have read the bible. I'm quite interrested in Religion. Not because I believe in it, but because its an interrestign part of history, and so many follow tem and actually believe what it say is true.

There's no evidence, at all, that the miracles that happened even existed. You also don't know to waht extent they happened. Things tend to change over the years, and its not like the bible NEVER changed at all. The more people that tell the storie, the more it will change. No one but the first person tells the original story, and the people after that tells the story as they heard it, from memory. So everything changed quite a bit.

If you can trick people that there's actually a god up in the sky, just imagine to what extend you can trick people to believe that everything happening is a miracle that one man did?

For all we know, it was all a plot and conspiracy to dethrone the king.

 

[Rinoah]

The Bibles never states that God hates anyone. It does however say that there is only one way to get into heaven, which seems to be a big problem because people dont like to conform. But every one of us has a choice whether to follow that or not, so its not up to God, but up to us as individuals.

Rinoah himself said he hasnt read the Bible, but tells me how much it contradicts itself. Have you read the Bible? If so, was it a King James?

It seems most Bible Bashers (not really meaning this offensively) havent read or have much knowledge of the Bible at all

No apparently not. But given you didn't even recognise part of it i'd say your knowledge of the bible is also limited.

So you deny that the bible paints Homosexuality as a sin? In fact didn't homosexuals used to be killed? In the bible the city of sodom(?) was burnt to the ground, which is where the term sodomy comes from.

Sidenote: As i was saying about the 144000, the number of saints there are would cover nearly double that figure.

 

[Reauland]

Sidenote: are ligers also sterile? A mule is sterile because while a horse and donkey share enough chromosomes to have a child it will be sterile due to an uneven number or something...i covered it in biology like over a year ago.

I'm still playin catch-up on this thread, but wanted to letcha know in case no one else had(and before I forgot ): yes, Ligers are sterile.

Considering that they're also significantly larger than either of their parents . . . I can't help but think that's a good thing . . .

 

[Ruffyreborn]

No apparently not. But given you didn't even recognise part of it i'd say your knowledge of the bible is also limited.

So you deny that the bible paints Homosexuality as a sin? In fact didn't homosexuals used to be killed? In the bible the city of sodom(?) was burnt to the ground, which is where the term sodomy comes from.

no no no, youre not understanding what Im saying, or youre refusing to.

What you said about the Bible simply isnt true, I have read it and nowhere in there does it limit the number of people that can get into heaven. The entire quote was wrong, following my religion, which uses the oldest available version of the Bible. (if translation doesnt count)

And no, I did not deny homosexuality was a sin. Hating something does not make it a sin. I said I do not hate homosexuals, and neither are church goers supposed to. Theyre supposed to no fall in with them, and are not supposed to support them. We will tell them we believe what they do is wrong, and its a sin, but theyre still people that do not deserve to be hated.

The Bible does not teach you to hate anything, not even hell. It instills fear, yes, but does not teach us to hate it.

The information youre giving me is very, very skewed, and I can see why you would believe it contradicts itself in so many ways. I, however, do not get my information from the same Bible you do, or from Google.

 

[Uzor]

no no no, youre not understanding what Im saying, or youre refusing to.

What you said about the Bible simply isnt true, I have read it and nowhere in there does it limit the number of people that can get into heaven. The entire quote was wrong, following my religion, which uses the oldest available version of the Bible. (if translation doesnt count)

And no, I did not deny homosexuality was a sin. Hating something does not make it a sin. I said I do not hate homosexuals, and neither are church goers supposed to. Theyre supposed to no fall in with them, and are not supposed to support them. We will tell them we believe what they do is wrong, and its a sin, but theyre still people that do not deserve to be hated.

The Bible does not teach you to hate anything, not even hell. It instills fear, yes, but does not teach us to hate it.

The information youre giving me is very, very skewed, and I can see why you would believe it contradicts itself in so many ways. I, however, do not get my information from the same Bible you do, or from Google.

You're also only reading one version of the bible, nor the parts they sensored out.

And you don't have to google it. Just go to the library, or look up different religious books

 

[Reauland]

Hi guys

Just wanted to clarify somethin here. Yes, there is mention of 144,000 "sealed" servants of God, but it really requires a bit more in-depth analysis to see how it applies to those going to Heaven. Here's the passage in question (in that ole, dignified, occasionally nigh unto indecipherable KJV ):

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

So basically, this is a passage concerning the Messianic Jews, descendants of the original twelve tribes of Israel who recognized Jesus as the Messiah - not the sum total of Christians in Heaven. It's also generally accepted to be nothing more than a symbolic number deeply tied into old Kabbalistic numerology. That's why it's immediately followed by this:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Which describes the innumerable souls who reached Heaven.

That's all I got to say on the current subject of debate, along with this word of caution: it's dangerous to rely on simple hearsay no matter which side of the argument you happen to be on.

 

[Rinoah]

Well the burning of sodom is in the old testiment. So it will be in there. So i'm not giving skewed facts, your knowledge of the bible must just not be what you claim it to be. That or you are reading some very interesting version of the bible.

 

[Rinoah]

Hi guys

Just wanted to clarify somethin here. Yes, there is mention of 144,000 "sealed" servants of God, but it really requires a bit more in-depth analysis to see how it applies to those going to Heaven. Here's the passage in question (in that ole, dignified, occasionally nigh unto indecipherable KJV ):

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

So basically, this is a passage concerning the Messianic Jews, descendants of the original twelve tribes of Israel who recognized Jesus as the Messiah - not the sum total of Christians in Heaven. It's also generally accepted to be nothing more than a symbolic number deeply tied into old Kabbalistic numerology. That's why it's immediately followed by this:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Which describes the innumerable souls who reached Heaven.

That's all I got to say on the current subject of debate, along with this word of caution: it's dangerous to rely on simple hearsay no matter which side of the argument you happen to be on.

Pay attention ruffy. THAT is how you win an arguement...

 

[sekehmet]

ty for posting an interesting topic ruffy, i just think any book that has been rewritten as many times as the bible has cant be taken literally as a historical document. futhermore there is proof that jesus lived outside of the bible in roman documents.only reason i take that into consideration is that romans were extremly carful about documenting crimes,crimals,birth records etc. however just cause he lived doesnt mean hes who the bible says he is, and even if u give jesus the benefit of the doubt then he was a great man and thats fine but no one can come back from the dead. my point being yeah everyone should educate themselve to find thier path but every religous text is at least stretching the truth always keep that in mind.

 

[Makelith]

Human life just seems to somehow Spring up, 6000 years ago.

There are cave paintings from millions upon millions of years ago. Take a look at an Art History Textbook (one of the big 4 teacher's use preferrably) and there are cave paintings from as far back as the prehistoric period.

I do like your use of a MIB quote, though.

I have a bit of catching up to do so expect multiple posts.

 

[Makelith]

Just to throw it in, there are thousands of people that believe Dan Browns books (we all know, the Da Vinci Code and such) are fact, even when he plainly says on the back cover that its a work of fiction. He clearly states that the historical part of the book is untrue, but people still believe it to be so. Hell, there are still documentaries on television about the Da Vinci code, and how its 'real.'

There are thousands of people over the entire world that believe its true. In the grand scheme of thing that about 1 : 10,000,000, that believe its real? Not a whole lot.

And because weather we like it or not, Dan Brown's book raised alot of good points that alot of people hadn't thought about before. Like the last supper picture for example, with Mary Magdeline (sp?) being seated at the right hand of Jesus with John the Baptist making a sawing motion over her neck (he wasn't happy with her i can imagine).

Opous Die from the book, is also a real religion. You can bet they caused Dan Brown a lot of trouble for how he depicted them, but there are actually people that do that stuff that Silas did to himself.

Those documentaries aren't saying that the DaVinci Code is true, because they can't. They discuss the facts about it and interpert parts of the Bible that were omitted by the church, and they are the people who are the ones that actually translate the really old scrolls. I remember one very good example that Jesus was documented in one of those omitted books. He kissed Mary Magdeline, but there was a worn character on the parchment where it would have said where he kissed her.

The church didn't want to show Jesus as anything but divine (having lust for someone is a pretty deadly sin as i recall, not good for a savior) so despite having a document in front of them that was recently discovered and recently translated they decided to leave it out.

Why would the church want to leave stuff out of the all knowing bible?