Does this mean the end of FFXI?

[Grandphoenix]

Can we all agree that if this new game is a success and a lot of us switch to it, we don't make a website where we can all come and talk? You know, to save us the pain?

brb making RDN.NET

 

[Bajaratt]

The end of FFXI as an MMO was spelled when they stunted level growth with a weak excuse of not wanting to make items trivial. It only exists purely as a 3D social network since then.

I don't buy that the permanent level cap is the ultimate cause for FFXI's decline. Yeah, I'm sure it has contributed, but it would only be the main reason if people only/primarily cared about leveling up. People getting tired of/not liking the endgame seems like a bigger concern to me.

 

[naue]

lack of great content post CoP and a plethora of redundant time sinks are the main downfalls.

I don't know if the perm level cap really contributed that much.

 

[Skaw]

I don't buy that the permanent level cap is the ultimate cause for FFXI's decline. Yeah, I'm sure it has contributed, but it would only be the main reason if people only/primarily cared about leveling up. People getting tired of/not liking the endgame seems like a bigger concern to me.

And increasing the level cap means completely fresh end game, rather than sidegrading/alternative item end game. It may not be the only cause, but it's a root one.

 

[Bajaratt]

And increasing the level cap means completely fresh end game, rather than sidegrading/alternative item end game. It may not be the only cause, but it's a root one.

Looking at WoW, it's only fresh in that it's a new instance to grind through; it's not a new type of endgame like FFXI's brought out over the years. They're doing something to keep endgame fresh, just not using the traditional method of rendering all of the other endgame useless.

 

[Skaw]

Looking at WoW, it's only fresh in that it's a new instance to grind through; it's not a new type of endgame like FFXI's brought out over the years. They're doing something to keep endgame fresh, just not using the traditional method of rendering all of the other endgame useless.

No matter how many methods they go through to keep end game "fresh," the problem is that you still have to toil through the "stale" because the developers live in a perpetual fear that advancing will offend those that sunk an ungodly amount of time in to getting an end game item.

I really don't think WoW relies heavily on "new instances to grind through." Sure, you always have to grind through trash. But the boss fights certainly differ instance to instance, and every instance has a large amount of quest line tie ins. Where as FFXI, you'll only see two or three quests per end game activity, if you're lucky. Gods/Jailers exist independent of quest tie ins, for example. Outside of Black Belt, theres nothing quest related about the Fafnir, Behemoth, and Adamantoise.

Being rendered useless is actually less of a problem for FFXI, since you can likely use your "obsolete" equipment on another class while leveling it to the new level cap. Just instead of it being "the best gear period," it'll just be knocked down a peg to "best gear for this level bracket."

 

[Bajaratt]

That's true, but a new level cap with new gear that's actually better than the old gear will run into some problems. Some of the methods SE's used to balance the jobs/methods players use to kill things would be undone by superior equipment or just made useless if those methods are still in place. I think they're just stuck with the decisions they made, since they're obviously too lazy to go back and make necessary changes because it's "too far into the code," like the linkshell system.

 

[Ewok]

lack of great content post CoP and a plethora of redundant time sinks are the main downfalls.

I don't know if the perm level cap really contributed that much.

Content as in story? Because outside of that, there wasn't much pre-Aht Urghan. Tbh, ToAU was the only reason I didn't quit this game. I do agree that level cap doesn't have too much to do with it, considering you can just jump on another job. And subjobs (something almost completely unique to FFXI) really add more to each job that another 5-10 levels ever could.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

I always feel like I strive really hard to get a certain piece of gear, more for the ride than for the actual stat boost or whatever it gives. I've been dedicating a ton of time in Sky for Haidate and D.body (I know, behind the curve, noob, etc.) because I'm nothing more than a casual player.

But let's say you are a hardcore FFXI addict, and you get every salvage/sky/znm/whatever endgame piece that you want, where do you go from there? What happens when you've achieved all of your goals in this game? You go to a merit party and blow everyone away? You show your awesomeness in helping others in any shells you still belong to? Or you sit around and wait for new content for a new piece to strive after?

Like I said, as a person that doesn't play more than 15 hours a week, what happens when you have everything you want? I enjoy this game because I always have something to go after, due to limited play time, but obviously there are people far more progressed than I who have to be bored with the current limitations on content. I'm not sure where I'm rambling with these thoughts, but in the end I guess my question is what do people do when they've finished their goals? What keeps you playing?

 

[Ranpha]

What killed FFXI for me was the concept of meriting (ToAU style) and the non instanced content (both old and the limited selection of new content). The level cap was fine. It was waiting for a decent PUG group to make up for exp lost doing random endgame stuff. With most people who have a busier school schedule and work, the many hours I could put into the game dwindled dramatically. When I started playing, I was a sophomore in college who had a lax schedule. By the time I hit senior year, I cut back time to dynamis and a few things with friends. At the end of my FFXI career, I used the game mostly as a glorified chat service.

And if WoW is going to be brought up, honestly there is not much to do till Uldar. The guild raids 1-2 nights a week (everything on farm) so it is not much of a time sink as it everyone perceived it before the burning crusade expansion. The “easier” content can be debated until eternity but blizzard actually listened to their demographics. Not everyone who enjoys mmos can dedicate more than a few hours a night to them. The big RNG factors are loot drops and PvP elements.

With both games, it is very important to know the demographics and have retention among customers. If both companies conducted a survey/poll about their subscribers, they would probably see that people do enjoy activities outside of mmos. If SE is still in the development process for another game, it would be to their advantage to do extensive research and learn from FFXI.

As for the end of FFXI or it being replaced? Highly doubtful.

 

[Aselus]

problem is ahem.. those of us that do enjoy this kind of slow progression game that takes effort and time.... are very quickly put off/dis-satisfied with 'WoW'-esque causal b/s.

To Ranpha:
I work fulltime and goto school 3hours a day + spend time with friends, so I can't say I have an enormous amount of free time to play the game either. But there are plenty of things to do in EG that might take me longer but have a sense of accomplishment on them... vs having raids on farm in WoW, after the first two weeks. So I think your 'not enough free time' statement is just making excuses for yourself Ranpha... just say "I didn't want to play anymore" and be honest. Even with 2hours a week of free time, that's still enough time to do something in FFXI aside from chat. Especially with some events being quicker than that (Assaults, Einherjar).

Is FFXI getting replaced in my opinion? depends... I think a decent amount of people will move on, but it all depends on what sort of game the new one will be for my decision... If it's similar to FFXI in that achievements feel like they have weight, there is party-oriented gameplay and maybee a SC/MB type system... I will be interested. If it plays like oh so many wow clones out there... then I will leave in the first 1~3months like I have with all those games.

Just my opinions though, of course none of the above is to be taken to heart.

~Aselus

 

[Ranpha]

FFXI's content is not ground breaking. Supply the right amount of people and tank n spank in every situation. A 64-manned instance (dynamis) can be handled with a minimum of 20 people; even less in some circumstances. This is one of the many issues SE's development team should focus on in the next project. Quite a few of us left because of the monotonous routine of things to do and an outdated system.

Mentioned in a post a few pages back, PSO is still around. Ragnarok continues to have subscribers. Unless there is an announcement directly from PlayOnline or the SE/FFXI official pages, the game will still continue and there will be people who play/subscribe. There are people who have played since day one and yet to have one level 75, complete a storyline, care less about FFXI's endgame and probably are still around until the servers die. These customers are considered a very important demographic to SE as far as retention goes.

SE is probably looking at Blizzard's (vivendi) efforts for comparison. Company wise, they have a smooth running game, and an amazing amount of subscribers. Why reinvent the wheel? Ignoring the competitors is a really bad idea in the business world. Especially one that is thriving well in the current economy.

Suggestions about any new SE development should be brought up in a different thread or directly to SE (if they read the suggestions to begin with). A few of us would not mind completing an extensive survey for such a company.

 

[Svina]

But let's say you are a hardcore FFXI addict, and you get every salvage/sky/znm/whatever endgame piece that you want, where do you go from there? What happens when you've achieved all of your goals in this game? You go to a merit party and blow everyone away? You show your awesomeness in helping others in any shells you still belong to? Or you sit around and wait for new content for a new piece to strive after?

Nah, you just blow all your money on Amemet Skins and ragequit when they all blow up. h34r:

 

[Tagrineth]

Ranpha, the real problem is that when SE added content that you couldn't "just tank n spank", people bitched until they had to nerf it in the end (level capped battles, especially...)

 

[Svina]

The mechanics of the game kind of limit it to that tank n' spank model, for the most part.

 

[Tagrineth]

Well, when even a decked-out paladin takes 300 damage from melee swings, there's not much of a chance anything else can take more than two hits from that mob

 

[Kurgon]

There are people who have played since day one and yet to have one level 75, complete a storyline, care less about FFXI's endgame and probably are still around until the servers die.

/wave

 

[Daveman]

Ignoring the competitors is a really bad idea in the business world. Especially one that is thriving well in the current economy.

Ffxi is thriving in the current economy, keeping a steady subscriber rate throughout the economic downturns which happens to also make it one of the most popular games in the industry is pretty much thriving in my book.

Secondly, look at all the WoW clones, they're mostly getting nowhere fast. WoW started with huge brand recognition (the new game, not being a FF means it won't have that advantage) to start off and basically cornered and monopolized that area. Meaning any game like WoW will never take any more than a few %tage of market share away from WoW. Unless SE is going to come up with something godly amazing, they shouldn't be targetting WoW's main customer base, because it would be in vain.

What SE needs to do is target the same type of player who loves mmorpg's and shuns WoW, as well as very dissatisifed WoW customers. FFXI seems like a great place to pull in a starting population, an intrest, and a great place to find players that fit what their target should be. I'm sure SE has a very good reason, but not using the FF brand seems like a mistake, possibly they dont' want any of the baggage which comes from being a FF (Aka: Bahamut likely to be an endgame boss monster again) or the connotations of a ffxi sequel (24hour boss fight and useless gm's).

Slow progression isn't necessarily bad (SE f'd up a ton) the basic idea is workable. To me, ffxi seems to have minor flaws that could easily be fixed (dragon's aery being filled with 5billion players, drop rate issues, useless GM's, "Crab Fantasy XI" aka: fighting the same monsters over and over, etc ) Almost no one has a huge complaint about ffxi that would require a massive innovation to fix, as such they just need to polish the ffxi "idea" (not just copy ffxi, fix the worst parts and slap on better graphics either...).

 

[ShomeGhuye]

After scanning the posts on this thread, it seems like marajade and tristam green have the right ideas. Maybe I'm wrong, but so many of you are talking like ffxi will come to an abrut end in the near future, but I think you're taking the word "replace" too literally. There are two alternatives to the literal interpretation:

1) (Marajade) SE may need a new product to start bringing in more money if ffxi isn't making them what it used to. If that really is the case, it seems totally logical for SE to work on a new game to become their new money maker, and keep ffxi on the side until it's costs exceed it's profits.

2) (Tristam Green) A second thought is the whole sequel idea (With the information on the topic starting in 2005, this is sort of old news). Hopefully SE will be smart about this and allow us to bring our characters on over if we want. This seems to be the more likely scenario when you check out the name of the graphics engine that this new game will be using.

Neither of these mean that work on ffxi will stop. There's no reason to take the word "replace" literally, SE has no real reason to do that until they're losing money from ffxi.

 

[Vilurum]

What SE can learn:

1. Not to be afraid of vertical gear progression (which does in turn, yes, mean that people spend less/no time doing older content and more time doing newer content). Horizontal is all well and good but it eventually stagnates. Not to be afraid of adjusting game balance either - again, pretending it's perfect and in no need of rebalancing leads to stagnation.

(Spieled for a bit on this subject so it's in a spoiler tag for brevity.)

Spoiler:

Look at FFXI as it is now - Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar, world HNMs, and I dunno what WotG has added/is adding ... various "best" or "situational best" items come from every last one of those. Which means serious gearing up involves doing many or all of those as well, which leads to either a. RL neglect (read: fat kid in mama's basement), b. forcing players to compromise on their ideals and denying them the ability to get what they want to put in the effort for, or c. eventual burnout.

Between the resulting schedule nightmare, and the overall eventual pointlessness of horizontal gear progression (once you get to something near the top, any and all new endgame activities will only offer sidegrades or minimal upgrades) ... well, those are problems with a horizontal system.

The benefit of a horizontal system? You don't have to hear a few weeks of whining from a vocal minority when new stuff comes out and makes their old stuff outdated. (People *will* shrug, get some perspective, and move on. A handful of the biggest primadonnas will quit and the rest of us will be better off for their departure. Being afraid of that whining is ridiculous.)

So from a cost-benefit perspective, there's really not much point in it. Which is why SE can learn to shift to a more vertical system. (The existence of sidegrades, choices, options, alternatives - that's a good thing. Having the system be completely designed around them and have the best gear still be the best gear 5+ years later, not so much.)

Another thing that ties into this is a very watchful eye on game balance, not the "well let's give it a year and see what we think, and then maybe do a minor tweak and give it another year at that point". See DRG 2-hour for obvious example, but there are plenty more where that came from. New gear does have effects on balance, so mechanics need adjustments at least as often as gear comes out.

Pretending the mechanics are perfect, set in stone, and could never do with improvement (let alone significant overhauls) is just a matter of denial. Again, changing mechanics involves a. effort and b. dealing with temporary whining, but neither of those is at all a good reason not to make necessary adjustments.

The astute reader will note that I'm *not* talking about level caps. While increasing the level cap offers excellent opportunity for role and game mechanic rebalancing and the introduction of a bunch of brand new gear, it's not strictly necessary to accomplish that. But a static level cap is not an excuse to avoid vertical progression. All the same, allow for introduction of gear and allow for rebalancing of game mechanics, and at that point it's not too complicated to just bump up the level cap 5 or 10 levels while you're at it.

2. Economy (what's sellable to others, what's not, money given from game, money given to game, crafting, etc.). In-game money should have its use and its place, but it should not be a defining bottleneck (and an obnoxious bottleneck at that). Spending reasonable amounts of money should be able to benefit you in *small to moderate ways*. Spending money in unreasonable, weeks-to-earn amounts, should not be a die-hard necessity in order for other players to consider you geared enough to be worth their while.

Side benefit of this one would be that with money being relatively unimportant, RMT wouldn't have as much of a leg to stand on.

3. Game mechanics that allow for people to try, fail, and try again repeatedly and learn new and different ways of dealing with things. Without that freedom, players are reluctant to be willing to experiment, let alone have little or no *opportunity*, which means they rarely evolve strategies more complex than a. tank & spank b. kite. (Which in turn means the game devs can't really *make* nice interesting encounters.) This comes in three flavors (I spieled here too):

Spoiler:

- Penalties on death are nice, but they should ultimately be minor enough that even the laziest of players isn't gonna mind dying a dozen times a night *too* much, while learning new encounters. (At least not insofar as the in-game death penalty. Maybe as far as the "not getting anything done" bit but that's more an individual/group issue than a game issue.)

- It should be *possible* to try again a gazillion times if you want. Not try again three times until you're out of Assault tickets, or try again for another hour until Dynamis time runs out, or try again in three days when Dynamis and Limbus and Einherjar let you in again, or try again in a month when you finally outclaim the bots on the HNM again, etc. It's really unfriendly to learn new stuff if you have to remember from half a week (or more) ago what went wrong and why. While repeating something a few times in quick succession often allows for a. much more smoothness in pinning down and correcting problems and b. much easier ability to learn an encounter and actually remember after that how to do it right.

- Extremely long ability recast timers tie into the above - if you have to wait another 2 hours to give something a good rather than half-assed shot, that too slows you down. Don't have to get rid of the recast timers themselves, but retries at an instanced endgame activity could come with a Revitalizer for each complete wipe, for example. There are ways of keeping the long recasts in some situations while getting rid of them in others.

4. Not to assume they know better than the players when it comes to user interface stuff, simply because "third party is bad, default UI or banhammer" attitude is easier than doing a good job of it. This requires a fair bit of technical attention on their part - changing code to break the things they really don't want people doing for balance reasons (bots for example), while still allowing things that are reasonable for players to do (increase their draw distance if they have better video cards, for example), and even incorporating some of the best ideas into the default UI (think the only one they did this with was with windowed mode, and it took them a few years).

5. To play to their strengths. One thing that strongly comes to mind is the FF moniker's (and SE's in general) fame for story and cutscenes. Parceling out tiny amounts of story (and sometimes no story whatsoever) only every 3 months is a disappointment to anyone who is playing FF for its story rather than some other MMO for its friendlier gameplay.

... If anyone actually got this far and didn't TLDR at it, I should point out that overall, in spite of all the above stuff (which I consider to be the game's more glaring flaws), I still actively played AND ENJOYED the game for four and a half years. There's a lot of other stuff I'm *not* mentioning, which I did like. And maybe it'd be just as helpful to give SE a list of things I wish they *wouldn't* change, but frankly I think the audience can agree I've blathered on quite long enough as it is.