Dynamis Antics

[Raesvelg]

Nah. I'll lay the blame on the Midgard transfers for failing to do the one thing that would have satisfied the existing Quetz Dynamis shells; work within the scheduling system.

You can call it childish and rude to state the truth, but that doesn't make it any less true. Your entire position during this debate has been one of conciliation towards members of your native server; I understand this. But as I've said numerous times before, I just don't care. It's the server-wide equivalent of the friend defense; you would make them blameless solely because they're from Midgardsormr. Your argument consists largely of "maybe they don't know about the scheduling system, maybe they're too self-centered to leave their shells over it, maybe this, maybe that", whereas the people who have been arguing against you deal from a position of certitude; shells are stealing zones, the people in those shells share in the responsibility of it, and the vast majority of those shells and individuals are of Midgardsormr origin.

The system works. It will continue to work if the Midgard crew puts in the necessary effort to make it work. It will be the best overall outcome for the entire server if that effort is made.

So far, I am not impressed. Two shells already leaving the system because they lost a few zones, a handful of apologists who refuse to accept that people from their server are screwing up something that has worked for years despite many challenges, and the same tired old "well, it's not in the rules" and "you Quetz people were rude to us!". I read that notorious first exchange of message board communications, and it basically boiled down to one Quetz person saying that it would all be fine if the Midgard people followed the rules (ie, Dynamis Scheduling), and a whole mess of Midgarders getting their panties in a wad over the idea that someone would lay out the conditions through which the server would be smoothly integrated without sugarcoating it for them. It was subsequently sugarcoated, but the fact remains that, from all appearances, your Dynamis shells were entirely too self-centered to make a fair system work for all of them, and that they have brought that attitude with them to Quetzalcoatl.

I am disinclined to sugarcoat things because you find the truth rather bitter.

If the system fails, it will be directly attributable to the failure of the majority of Midgard shells to adopt it. Period. SE is not to blame, Quetz shells are not to blame, the server merge is not to blame. Midgard shells being unwilling to make a small effort and a modest sacrifice will be to blame.

 

[Alobont]

I approve of the scheduling system and it does indeed work. The problem right now is that schedule is under massive straing from so many shells. I found it, to my surprise, that a lot of midgard shells adopted the calendar. I also found it, to ocne again my surprise, that they are giving up so soon. With the amount of shells now, some things do need to change.

1. More shells need to do dreamlands. Glancing over the most of the days, about less then half the shells do dreamlands. WHile I realise some shells are not capable of doing dreamlands, and dreamlands can be a bitch with the time constraint, and payouts, it needs to be a viable option for more shells.

2. Times need to be adjusted. While I understand people like their time slots, moving forward or backwards 30 min to hour can alleviate a large amount of scheduling issues. I didnt realise how a time shift could fix a lot of it till someone showed me in, in my thread in the scheduling forum.

3. Shell merges: I know, I know, I know, no one wants to do that. I realise a shell merge is a last resort type of thing but it needs to remain an option for large and smaller shells. Im not advocating it, im just putting it out there as a litch ditch effort.

4. Joint runs need to happen more often. Just about any dynamis zone except probably jeuno is big enough for 2 shells to run in. I realise no one would probably want to share a city, as any dynamis shell worth its salt can clear a city pretty well, but it still needs to happen. Xarc and Glacier are the big ones here and I see no reason why shells can work together in these zones. Having more people will allow for more kills and better time management, especially in Xarc.

5. The continued use of the calendar. Just because you lsot a zone or two doesnt eman you shouldnt post your calendar. By shells dropping out of the calendar it just makes the problem worse for everyone. Those shells turn into the same thing that started the whole mess. If people stick to the calendar, eventually people will use it or at least look at it and judge accordingly.

1, 4, and 5 are the big ones that need to happen now rather then later, in my own opinion. Regardless from what server or whatever, it doesnt matter now, we are Quetzelcoatlonians now. We need to embrace that instead of this your from midgard or your from quetzey attitude. The servers arent going to be split, and the merge is over. I think its high time we put the divide behind us and look at fixing this problem.

 

[Divinius]

But as I've said numerous times before, I just don't care.

Ah, so it's ok for Quetz people to "not care", but damn those Midgardians if they "don't care".

you would make them blameless solely because they're from Midgardsormr.

Super. Another person that can't read. I never said they were blameless. I said they weren't solely to blame. I'm not going to repeat this again because if you can't understand that after this many attempts, you aren't going to.

The system works. It will continue to work if the Midgard crew puts in the necessary effort to make it work.

Let me try to lay this out a different way.

Fact 1: The Quetz scheduling system has been working successfully for years.

Fact 2: The System has proven to be capable of enduring the effects of some number of rogue shells.

Fact 3: The population of the server (and hence, the number of Dynamis linkshells) has just doubled.

Fact 4: Due to the large number of new shells into the system, Dynamis time-slots are becoming twice as crowded as they were.

Fact 5: If the exact same percentage of Midgard shells use the System as Quetz shells, then the number of rogue shells has also doubled (granted, perhaps more than doubled, but assume only doubled for now).

Fact 6: The scheduling system is now in danger of failing due to too many rogue shells.

Your hypothesis based on the above facts:
"Fact 5 is irrelevant because a higher percentage of Midgard shells (versus Quetz shells) aren't using the System, and therefore it's failing solely because of them."

My hypothesis based on the above facts:
The system itself, while functioning well under the pre-merge circumstances, may not be perfect for all circumstances. And while Fact 2 above may be true, due to the increased demand on zones, and the increased number of rogue shells, the System may have exceeded the number of rogue shells that it can tolerate. This is a direct result of the merge, and Facts 3 and 4 above, and, in my opinion, may have just as easily happened if Fact 5 was indeed the case.

I would go on to suggest that it's entirely possible that even if EVERY Midgard shell used the System, due to overcrowding and the fact that you had rogue shells already on the server, the system might STILL be in danger.

If the system fails, it will be directly attributable to the failure of the majority of Midgard shells to adopt it. Period. SE is not to blame, Quetz shells are not to blame, the server merge is not to blame. Midgard shells being unwilling to make a small effort and a modest sacrifice will be to blame.

Continue that attitude if you want. It's ignorant, it doesn't help anyone, and just reinforces the stereotype that Quetz people hate Midgard people. And the most ironic part about it is that it's actually jeopardizing to your cause, as attitudes like that are what make people want to say, "Fuck their stupid system, they are just a bunch of assholes anyway."

 

[jyakotsu]

Ok Div, I'll pose a question for you then.

What do you suggest Quetz do then. If we cannot lay blame on the people that are messing up the system that has been in effect for the better part of 5 years, but rather just tell everyone that it is ok to just label the shells out.

How do you propose we fix this, because you have yet to propose anything. We(quetz) have layed several ways to rectify the issues(I.E. tell people names of the people in the run, etc etc). Please tell us how to fix this instead of saying "no this won't work, and no that won't work, and no you are an idiot"

 

[Divinius]

Ok Div, I'll pose a question for you then.

What do you suggest Quetz do then. If we cannot lay blame on the people that are messing up the system that has been in effect for the better part of 5 years, but rather just tell everyone that it is ok to just label the shells out.

How do you propose we fix this, because you have yet to propose anything. We(quetz) have layed several ways to rectify the issues(I.E. tell people names of the people in the run, etc etc). Please tell us how to fix this instead of saying "no this won't work, and no that won't work, and no you are an idiot"

I hate responding to you, because I feel like I'm talking to wall. But just for giggles, I'll try, even though everyone else is just going to bitch about me being repetitive.

First, I suggest that those of you that just want to cry "WAAAAH!! This is all the Midgarders fault!" should get your heads out of your asses.

Second, read Alobont's post above mine. I'm assuming you'll listen to him, since he's from Quetz I believe. He makes some excellent suggestions.

Third, (and this I've tried countless times to get through you head, but you are completely incapable of grasping the difference) continue to put pressure on the rogue shells that aren't using the system (Midgard AND Quetz shells), as you have been. My only complaint with that was that punishing ALL the members of those shells seemed a bit extreme, but Ive decided I'm not even going to fight that battle anymore.

After that? I don't know. I can't give you a magic solution. I just know that (from what I've seen) a lot of the rogue midgard shells are that way because of the way they feel they've been treated, so reinforcing that stereotype isn't going to help.

 

[Raesvelg]

Ah, so it's ok for Quetz people to "not care", but damn those Midgardians if they "don't care".

Because there is a tangible difference between not caring about someone's excuses, and not caring enough to use a system that benefits everyone. Next failed argument please.

Super. Another person that can't read. I never said they were blameless. I said they weren't solely to blame. I'm not going to repeat this again because if you can't understand that after this many attempts, you aren't going to.

Actually, your position throughout this debate, not simply in your last post, is that individuals from Midgard should be held blameless because they may or may not be aware of the system, that Quetz people were rude to them, that they have too much invested to give up now, etc. If you can't understand what you've been saying, then you need to go back and perhaps review it.

I would go on to suggest that it's entirely possible that even if EVERY Midgard shell used the System, due to overcrowding and the fact that you had rogue shells already on the server, the system might STILL be in danger.

Perhaps. Certain days are sufficiently crowded that a single shell operating in a rogue manner could cause significant disruptions.

However.

No Quetz shell has yet expressed a desire to abandon the system, and it's a fairly well established fact already that the majority of rogue shells are from Midgard. Couple this with the fact that Midgard shells are now abandoning the system, and it becomes fairly obvious where to lay the blame. When confronted with rogue shells, Quetz shells have historically closed ranks and worked very hard to compel said shells to work within the system. When confronted with rogue shells, Midgard shells have, thus far, abandoned the system and become rogue shells.

Again, you're trying incredibly hard to excuse the behavior of those with whom you share an origin.

Continue that attitude if you want. It's ignorant, it doesn't help anyone, and just reinforces the stereotype that Quetz people hate Midgard people. And the most ironic part about it is that it's actually jeopardizing to your cause, as attitudes like that are what make people want to say, "Fuck their stupid system, they are just a bunch of assholes anyway."

Gee, what does it say on my Server bar there on the side of the screen?

Oh right.

Sylph.

You can decry my stance if you like, but there's no malice in it. I've no investment in the continued smooth functioning of Quetzalcoatl's Dynamis Schedule; in the unlikely event that I ever return to the server, I sure as fuck won't be doing Dynamis. I'm 5/5 on my mains (6/6 on PLD), and for the most part, the gear is shit these days. One can safely assume that it will be even more outdated come the next update.

You say my stance will push people away from cooperating with the system. Why? Because I lay blame where blame is deserved? Because I refuse to empathize with their situation? As I said, neither of these things involves malice, merely a cold appreciation of the facts.

I dismiss your arguments because they're worthy of nothing more. You are against calling out individuals for their behavior, based on the potential of ignorance on their part; to this I say that in the act of calling them out, we can rapidly rectify any such ignorance. You provide no secondary course of action, save for the platitudes of "wait it out, and see if it gets better". You decry the behavior of Quetz natives, while excusing the behavior of Midgard natives, thus underlining the hypocrisy of your position.

What do I mean? You say "well, Quetz people were rude, so that's why Midgard shells don't follow the system". That argument flows both ways. I can as easily say "well, Midgard people didn't follow the system, so that's why Quetz people were rude to them". What's worse, is that you use behavior on one side of the fence as a root cause to behavior on the other side of the fence, and act like it excuses the secondary behavior, when in fact that secondary behavior is the true root cause.

What do I mean?

I mean this:

And the most ironic part about it is that it's actually jeopardizing to your cause, as attitudes like that are what make people want to say, "Fuck their stupid system, they are just a bunch of assholes anyway."

Reposted for emphasis.

It's equally valid for people to take that response and reverse it. "Fuck those stupid Miggers, they're just a bunch of assholes anyway." The argument fails. It's hollow. And it's especially hollow because the decried asshole-ish behavior is a direct result of failures to follow the system. It's akin to getting pissed off at your neighbor when they confront you about how you let your dog shit on their lawn. Which, sadly enough, actually happens.

What matter is this: The system works. If shells continue to follow the system, it will continue to work.

Ultimately, however, there's no excuse for insults, foul language, or anything else. There is an excuse for a dispassionate analysis of the situation, and apportioning blame where it is deserved.

 

[Raesvelg]

I approve of the scheduling system and it does indeed work. The problem right now is that schedule is under massive straing from so many shells. I found it, to my surprise, that a lot of midgard shells adopted the calendar. I also found it, to ocne again my surprise, that they are giving up so soon. With the amount of shells now, some things do need to change.

The interesting thing to me is that this has all happened before. In ye olden days, back when the server was still young, and in no need of a merge, we were running at total saturation on a couple days of the week, largely because people kept starting new shells rather than joining existing ones, primarily on the basis of not wanting to be stuck on waiting lists. Well, that and it became the "in thing" at the time for endgame shells to run their own Dynamis operations, which caused additional crowding.

Of the suggestions to fix the problem:

Dreamlands is questionable. Yes, you can do them with fewer people, but they're also less rewarding from the currency standpoint, nor can you target a specific currency you're trying to obtain, which makes them less desirable.

Time adjustments are worth exploring. Some shells could probably move their entry times 30 minutes in either direction without difficulty, and it's not too much to ask if that's the case.

Shell merges are ultimately the way to go for less successful shells, in the short term at least. Some shells, let's be honest, struggle to meet basic attendance levels. It's always been the case. If you're struggling, your leaders should be reaching out to other shells in your time slot to see if a deal regarding a merger could be negotiated.

Joint-Runs are Mergers-Lite, and strangely less viable for it. People are sometimes willing to align themselves with a new system; for some reason they are rarely willing to give equal weight to a competing system.

Continued use of the calendar itself is essential; the whole thing will fall apart if enough people divorce themselves from it, and that trend has already begun in the Midgard transfers.

The real irony of the situation is that it may well become completely irrelevant in 2-3 weeks.

 

[Divinius]

Actually, your position throughout this debate, not simply in your last post, is that individuals from Midgard should be held blameless because they may or may not be aware of the system, that Quetz people were rude to them, that they have too much invested to give up now, etc. If you can't understand what you've been saying, then you need to go back and perhaps review it.

Ah, ok... I see the misunderstanding from where this stems now.

You are sill (like a few people in this thread) missing my point there. I never once said that "ALL individuals from Midgard are blameless". Go back and read every one of my posts if you'd like, I dare you to find where I said that. I did say that "not all can be blamed". There is a very distinct and logical difference there. Try to not confuse the two. I merely subscribe to an "innocent until proven guilty" approach.

I will also admit, that as time passes, that defense becomes less and less valid. I was just not ready to assume that we reached the point where every single person that has ever done a dynamis run is intimately aware of this scheduling system. I'm not going to continue to argue whether we've reached that point yet or not, because it's a subjective argument anyway.

No Quetz shell has yet expressed a desire to abandon the system.

So when one does, will you admit to being wrong?

Again, you're trying incredibly hard to excuse the behavior of those with whom you share an origin.

and

You decry the behavior of Quetz natives, while excusing the behavior of Midgard natives, thus underlining the hypocrisy of your position.

Am I defending Midgarders more than Quetz people? Yes, I guess I am. Is that because I feel they are less to blame? No. I'm simply playing devil's advocate, because SOMEONE has to defend the other half, and point out the possible perceptions of the other side of the fence, because if I left this thread up to people like you, every midgardian on the server would be running from the torches and pitchforks carried by the angry mob that people like you are attempting to create.

You say "well, Quetz people were rude, so that's why Midgard shells don't follow the system". That argument flows both ways.

You're right. It sure does. And I wasn't offering that up as an "excuse", but simply a "cause". I don't IN ANY WAY agree that ignoring the system is the right thing for Midgard shells to be doing. They are just as much to blame in this. But I'm sure you've heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"? I'm simply suggesting that it may apply here.

You are taking the attitude that all of Quetz is blameless in this. This bothers me as much as it bothered you when you were under the (false) impression that I held all of Midgard blameless. Midgard is by no means blameless. Hell, I'll even concede that that actions of the Midgard shells may indeed be MORE to blame. But that doesn't equate to "This is all those 'Midgard Fucks' fault, and Quetz people are perfect angels that can do no wrong." The negative attitudes of those few very biased and outspoken Quetz people can cause just as much damage to the System as a bunch of rogue shells.

Gee, what does it say on my Server bar there on the side of the screen?

Oh right.

Sylph.

Oh, trust me, I noticed that. And what I've been refraining from saying this whole time I've getting increasingly more determined to say...

You aren't part of this server anymore. It's getting very difficult for me to prevent myself from telling you to, with all due respect, shut the fuck up, and get out of this thread. This doesn't concern you anymore.

 

[jyakotsu]

I hate responding to you, because I feel like I'm talking to wall. But just for giggles, I'll try, even though everyone else is just going to bitch about me being repetitive.

First, I suggest that those of you that just want to cry "WAAAAH!! This is all the Midgarders fault!" should get your heads out of your asses.

Second, read Alobont's post above mine. I'm assuming you'll listen to him, since he's from Quetz I believe. He makes some excellent suggestions.

Third, (and this I've tried countless times to get through you head, but you are completely incapable of grasping the difference) continue to put pressure on the rogue shells that aren't using the system (Midgard AND Quetz shells), as you have been. My only complaint with that was that punishing ALL the members of those shells seemed a bit extreme, but Ive decided I'm not even going to fight that battle anymore.

After that? I don't know. I can't give you a magic solution. I just know that (from what I've seen) a lot of the rogue midgard shells are that way because of the way they feel they've been treated, so reinforcing that stereotype isn't going to help.

Through that entire post, as well as any of your posts you have yet to give me a well thought out idea as per a way to remedy this situation that has gotten at least 10 times worse since the server merge. And if you check Alobont's post, it has a direct correlation to those that have to abide by the dynamis scheduling. Server mergers that do not abide by the scheduling will still hex his plans as well.

 

[Alobont]

Yes, the other problem arises is the level cap increase. If dynamis isnt instanced or capped at 75, the calendar is going to be a wash. There will be a massive influx of smaller groups going in, which will result in a massive crash in relic currency, due to relics becoming common. I have hope that SE will cap it or instance it but, I've been let down before.

 

[jyakotsu]

The interesting thing to me is that this has all happened before. In ye olden days, back when the server was still young, and in no need of a merge, we were running at total saturation on a couple days of the week, largely because people kept starting new shells rather than joining existing ones, primarily on the basis of not wanting to be stuck on waiting lists. Well, that and it became the "in thing" at the time for endgame shells to run their own Dynamis operations, which caused additional crowding.

Of the suggestions to fix the problem:

Dreamlands is questionable. Yes, you can do them with fewer people, but they're also less rewarding from the currency standpoint, nor can you target a specific currency you're trying to obtain, which makes them less desirable.

Time adjustments are worth exploring. Some shells could probably move their entry times 30 minutes in either direction without difficulty, and it's not too much to ask if that's the case.

Shell merges are ultimately the way to go for less successful shells, in the short term at least. Some shells, let's be honest, struggle to meet basic attendance levels. It's always been the case. If you're struggling, your leaders should be reaching out to other shells in your time slot to see if a deal regarding a merger could be negotiated.

Joint-Runs are Mergers-Lite, and strangely less viable for it. People are sometimes willing to align themselves with a new system; for some reason they are rarely willing to give equal weight to a competing system.

Continued use of the calendar itself is essential; the whole thing will fall apart if enough people divorce themselves from it, and that trend has already begun in the Midgard transfers.

The real irony of the situation is that it may well become completely irrelevant in 2-3 weeks.

Loldynamis and Limitless did joint runs, with the exception of a few kinks which could have been worked out it worked quite well.

And Raes I also remember when dynamis was completely saturated on quetz... yet we all worked together to make it work... Key word is "together."

Div your server is less than willing to cooperate. Some shells are, and those I commend... however most are not, which is sad to say the least.

 

[Tristam Green]

And since when does "you don't play anymore etc etc" have anything to do w/ someone putting their 2 cents in a thread on QCDN.

lol ohaithar

 

[Raesvelg]

You are sill (like a few people in this thread) missing my point there. I never once said that "ALL individuals from Midgard are blameless". Go back and read every one of my posts if you'd like, I dare you to find where I said that. I did say that "not all can be blamed". There is a very distinct and logical difference there. Try to not confuse the two. I merely subscribe to an "innocent until proven guilty" approach.

And I didn't say you said "all individuals". I said "individuals". As in, your stance that we cannot hold individuals to blame for the actions of their shell without specific knowledge that the individual in question was knowingly and with malice refusing to adhere to the schedule.

I do not feel the same way. Ignorance of the law, so to speak, is no excuse, and a simple apology and a promise to rectify said behavior has almost invariably sufficed in similar incidents. We have no way of rapidly disseminating information amongst the violators; arguably we could sit there and spam tells at each individual member of a shell until we know that they got the point, but in so doing a person opens themselves up to the possibility of getting GM'd for said behavior, ironically enough.

In short, GMs can't stop people who don't follow the schedule, but they can stop people who attempt to inform people about it. Sad as that may be.

So when one does, will you admit to being wrong?

When one does, that will pretty much be the end of the system.

Am I defending Midgarders more than Quetz people? Yes, I guess I am. Is that because I feel they are less to blame? No. I'm simply playing devil's advocate, because SOMEONE has to defend the other half, and point out the possible perceptions of the other side of the fence, because if I left this thread up to people like you, every midgardian on the server would be running from the torches and pitchforks carried by the angry mob that people like you are attempting to create.

Am I inciting an angry mob?

Hardly.

I'm laying blame, and maintaining that the actions of those around us reflect on us.

I'm not advocating a server-wide witch hunt against all Midgardians. Cut the straw man arguments, if you would be so kind.

I'm advocating holding those who ignore the schedule responsible for doing so. That's all. Not witch hunts. Not branding a scarlet M on anyone's chest. Just good old-fashioned responsibility and compromise.

Which apparently you feel is too much to ask.

You are taking the attitude that all of Quetz is blameless in this. This bothers me as much as it bothered you when you were under the (false) impression that I held all of Midgard blameless. Midgard is by no means blameless. Hell, I'll even concede that that actions of the Midgard shells may indeed be MORE to blame. But that doesn't equate to "This is all those 'Midgard Fucks' fault, and Quetz people are perfect angels that can do no wrong." The negative attitudes of those few very biased and outspoken Quetz people can cause just as much damage to the System as a bunch of rogue shells.

I'm not holding Quetz utterly blameless. I just don't see the issue with people posting lists of those who refuse to follow the system, and I do not find the "waaah, they were rude to us" excuse to be valid. Annoying as hell, and certainly worthy of calling someone out, say, on the Flameboard, but not a decent excuse to go rogue.

The attitude you're professing is equally counterproductive, you realize. Your conciliatory stance encourages rogues shells; after all, you advocate a near-total lack of consequences for rogue shells. If there's no consequence on the individual level, there's no incentive to follow the system, since there can be no carrot in this situation. Again, Danegeld issue.

You aren't part of this server anymore. It's getting very difficult for me to prevent myself from telling you to, with all due respect, shut the fuck up, and get out of this thread. This doesn't concern you anymore.

But I'm having fun.

Aren't you?

And again, if there are Quetz natives being complete assholes about the situation, throwing out names, cursing, insulting and whatnot, by all means, call them out.

If you can.

 

[Divinius]

Div your server is less than willing to cooperate. Some shells are, and those I commend... however most are not, which is sad to say the least.

Unfounded conjecture. Judging by the number of Midgard shells that have chosen to use the System, I'd say the good majority of them HAVE been cooperating.

In short, GMs can't stop people who don't follow the schedule, but they can stop people who attempt to inform people about it. Sad as that may be.

Valid point. And another reason why I've decided I'm no longer going to fight that battle. I've alread conceded that with all the blowups that have been occuring, the probability that someone doesn't have any knowledge of it is becoming increasingly less likely.

I'm advocating holding those who ignore the schedule responsible for doing so. That's all. Not witch hunts. Not branding a scarlet M on anyone's chest. Just good old-fashioned responsibility and compromise.

Which apparently you feel is too much to ask.

No, but what you deem as simply "holding responsible", others may indeed view as a witch hunt. And to say you don't want to "brand a scarlet M on anyone's chest" is funny, because by listing names of every person in a linkshell for the purpose of blackballing them out of EVERY game event people could do with them, sounds EXACTLY like branding them. As I said, I'm not going to argue against this tactic, but I disagree with your belief that this isn't what you are doing.

So once branded in this way, how does one "unbrand" themselves? Quit their LS? How would you know they did? Unless those "branded" people come on this board, denounce their affiliation with the rogue LS, and beg the forgiveness of everyone on here, they are probably going to remain branded even after they've atoned for their sins.

That sounds like the very definition of a witch hunt.

But I digress, and as I said, I'm not going to argue against that tactic any longer. Use it if you want, but just call it what it is.

I'm not holding Quetz utterly blameless.

Ahem...

If the system fails, it will be directly attributable to the failure of the majority of Midgard shells to adopt it. Period. SE is not to blame, Quetz shells are not to blame, the server merge is not to blame. Midgard shells being unwilling to make a small effort and a modest sacrifice will be to blame.

But, let's move on...

I just don't see the issue with people posting lists of those who refuse to follow the system

And yet again, neither do I. I never did have an issue with that. I only had issues with the extent to which it was taken. Which I've explained, repeatedly, ad nauseam.

But I'm having fun.

Aren't you?

Of course. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

And again, if there are Quetz natives being complete assholes about the situation, throwing out names, cursing, insulting and whatnot, by all means, call them out.

If you can.

I can. I've thus far simply chosen not to. I felt it would be stooping to the level I was trying to avoid.

 

[Tristam Green]

That sounds like the very definition of a witch hunt.

There have been many successful witch hunts against piece-of-shit shells hosted by QCDN over the years.

 

[Raesvelg]

No, but what you deem as simply "holding responsible", others may indeed view as a witch hunt. And to say you don't want to "brand a scarlet M on anyone's chest" is funny, because by listing names of every person in a linkshell for the purpose of blackballing them out of EVERY game event people could do with them, sounds EXACTLY like branding them. As I said, I'm not going to argue against this tactic, but I disagree with your belief that this isn't what you are doing.

Ah, but I'm not advocating branding them as "dirty Miggers", but rather "Zone-Jacking Douchebags".

ie, take them to task for what they do, not where they come from.

Call it a Scarlet D, if you prefer. I, and frankly I believe pretty much everyone else, could give two shits what server they come from, just so long as they stop ignoring the schedule.

Or worse, using it to persecute shells that are actually following the schedule.

Ahem...

Context. On both of the quotes involved, actually. On the one hand, I explain precisely what I mean. On the other, I outline a specific scenario that has not yet come to pass.

And frankly, I stand by that statement, that Quetz shells will not be the ones to blame if the system collapses, because I will be terribly surprised if there's any noticeable exodus from the system until just about every Midgard shell has abandoned it.

To refuse the system on the grounds that people were mean to you once or twice falls into that category of cutting off your nose to spite your face. The system helps everyone, when you get right down to it. It lets you know what you'll be doing in advance, and removes the nuisances of scanning for a free zone, then assembling, only to find that someone else has gotten there first.

I can. I've thus far simply chosen not to. I felt it would be stooping to the level I was trying to avoid.

It's not stooping. It's informing the public.

Frankly, it needs to be pointed out if it's going on. Suffering in silence, then complaining about it after the fact, is both unproductive and unhealthy.

 

[jyakotsu]

Sorry to say this but we on quetz do not like to associate with those that don't help maintain order in this server. It went with the server transfers that thought they were above and better than everyone else, same goes with those that don't want to help us maintain order here. I.E. just posting a dynamis scheduling.

So in all honesty I seriously hope that their names will continue to be posted, if they continue and the dynamis schedule dies(5 year schedule that is was and all).... then I hope they are blackballed out of each and every event in game. This goes for EVERY member in these rogue linkshells. ^^

 

[Synelia]

I can. I've thus far simply chosen not to. I felt it would be stooping to the level I was trying to avoid.

How is naming names stooping to a lower level?
Say what you want, but you can't resolve an issue while protecting the guilty, regardless of server of origin.

Chances are they know about the scheduling, and the flame board. If their names shows up, then they can post to defend themselves in whatever manner they so choose.
Name shows up frequent enough then the server will know who to avoid. A person generally isn't blackballed for one flame, or a single post in a flame. It normally takes a few flames for them to be blackballed or one long, serious flame. And even then, some people get blackballed just from word of mouth. Also notice that some of the names people do come to the defense of and say "oh player X seemed like a nice person when we did Nyzul the other day". So one post on a flame board will not overall hurt their image, but if their names show up frequently enough THEN they will have issues.

If we are going to use the scheduling system, then those who don't get their names posted. Simple.
You don't need to say their server of origin... we are all right now on a server called Quetzalcoatl. So grow up and stop drawing a line in the sand that says Quetz or Midgar only.

 

[Divinius]

I already mentioned the other reason I chose to not call people out specifically. Of the stories I've heard, I've only seen concrete proof of one (in the form of a screenshot) and that was given to me by a member of a shell that I don't want to get in trouble. If that shell wants to post it, fine, but it's not my place to.

If anything happens directly to me, firsthand, you can bet money I'll be posting it on here as fast as I can upload the screenshots. But I'm not going to post hearsay, and I'm not even going to post substantiated claims that would be on the behalf of others. That's the level I don't want to stoop to.

 

[delphin]

Last couple pages seem to be going in circles, so let's change the direction of discussion. Regardless of whether it's Quetzy's fault, Midgar's fault, Lakshmi's fault (I personally blame them) or a combination, we can either let the scheduling system go to chaos or we can figure out something to do about it.

In the end, at the very least some of the problem does seem to be the number of shells having doubled. Someone suggested doing joint runs with multiple shells in the same zone. How do shell leaders feel about that? Any ideas about how to work out who will lot what items, etc?

Someone also suggested doing more dreamlands runs, which have the benefits of being A) half the time or less, and B) not as competed for. Maybe (just a suggestion) we could ask shells to do, say, at least 2 dreamlands runs per month? Maybe double up, so that in a single four-hour evening block, two shells can do two 2-hour runs one after another? Just throwing out ideas, when I started this thread I *really* didn't expect 22 pages with no progress. I figured it would be kind of ignored to be honest.