Dynamis Losing steam?

[Ezdelaft]

i agree hach

Yes i agree with Hach, at least in the shell he and i run in, we usually have 36 in city's 40+in north lands, and almost everyone has there gear lol, you wouldn't believe how many times i go 70+? 60+? 50? 40? and then people lot lol. In my opinion, the best thing that could happen to dynamis is. more sub mission stuff. like Beucidine with attestations. that would be great if they would add alternitave goals to each area, maybe a different boss than the win boss or w/e, that would be fun imo.

 

[Vilurum]

I really dont see a fair way of doing it otherwise, if you make it that only older long term members get the rare drops they have been waiting forever for, newer or midterm members will get discouraged and not attend runs where they know they wont have any chance of getting drops.

Its the random factor that keeps people coming, quite often large attendance numbers is what makes a run sucessful. Its the chance that anyone can obtain something rare that makes it desirable to us all, new and old members alike.

That's where the notion of *bidding* or *spending* points comes in. It's not just a case of older members constantly piling up points and always getting everything first. If an older member has accumulated a lot of points but has constantly been spending them to get this or that (so their *current* point total isn't all that high), and a newer member hasn't been accumulating points for as long but has been *saving* them rather than loot whoring like the veteran... guess what, the newbie's gonna overtake the veteran sooner or later, and then the newbie can win the lot.

And if it's a case of the veteran *also* having been saving their points for specific item X, just like the newbie, but having done so for longer... why on earth *shouldn't* the veteran get it first? The only people who'd have a problem with that are people with no sense of perspective, and honestly who'd want to have such people in their shell in the first place? Just as well that they throw a huff over not having gotten immediate gratification (over someone with the exact same "save up for one item" attitude, who's been doing it longer) and leave the shell.

 

[Jeska]

That's where the notion of *bidding* or *spending* points comes in. It's not just a case of older members constantly piling up points and always getting everything first. If an older member has accumulated a lot of points but has constantly been spending them to get this or that (so their *current* point total isn't all that high), and a newer member hasn't been accumulating points for as long but has been *saving* them rather than loot whoring like the veteran... guess what, the newbie's gonna overtake the veteran sooner or later, and then the newbie can win the lot.

And if it's a case of the veteran *also* having been saving their points for specific item X, just like the newbie, but having done so for longer... why on earth *shouldn't* the veteran get it first? The only people who'd have a problem with that are people with no sense of perspective, and honestly who'd want to have such people in their shell in the first place? Just as well that they throw a huff over not having gotten immediate gratification (over someone with the exact same "save up for one item" attitude, who's been doing it longer) and leave the shell.

I do understand the point of this, and I know it must be frustrating to see someone brand new get a lucky lot of a piece of gear a veteran member may have had rotten lots on over the past 12 months previous.

But on the other hand it just seems that a veteran could be in a shell and not attend any of the town dynamis runs cause he's got all he wants from there, but suddenly starts showing up when its northlands runs that he still needs. What about the others who have loyaly slogged through each town week after week, maybe some have only been there 3-6 months instead of a year or two but their attendance surely means they have as much right to a chance at something good as a grizzled veteran that maybe comes by twice a month for runs.

I think attendance and loyalty to a run should be factored as evenly as time served, Dynamis is a team operation is it not?

 

[Skaw]

In my opinion, the best thing that could happen to dynamis is. more sub mission stuff. like Beucidine with attestations. that would be great if they would add alternitave goals to each area, maybe a different boss than the win boss or w/e, that would be fun imo.

In my opinion, the best thing that could happen to dynamis is it becoming an instance rather than just a reservation.

That way, you can do the zones you need/want, rather than do the one you agreed to in a rotation.

 

[Uzor]

I still don't understand WHY SE chose to do Dynamis as they did... Hell, many events are instance-based, like Assault, ENM (I think? Never had a problem with several groups trying to enter), BCNM, ISNM(I think, for the same reason), Salvage... Sadly, not Limbus, but you rarely have problems of entering the same route that others are. at the same time.

 

[Skaw]

I'm almost positive BCs aren't instanced, per se. Rather, each fight has it's own designated arena. So you can simultaneously have multiple, yet different fights running.

I just remember getting messages about being unable to enter arenas sometimes when someones already inside.

 

[Vilurum]

I do understand the point of this, and I know it must be frustrating to see someone brand new get a lucky lot of a piece of gear a veteran member may have had rotten lots on over the past 12 months previous.

But on the other hand it just seems that a veteran could be in a shell and not attend any of the town dynamis runs cause he's got all he wants from there, but suddenly starts showing up when its northlands runs that he still needs. What about the others who have loyaly slogged through each town week after week, maybe some have only been there 3-6 months instead of a year or two but their attendance surely means they have as much right to a chance at something good as a grizzled veteran that maybe comes by twice a month for runs.

I think attendance and loyalty to a run should be factored as evenly as time served, Dynamis is a team operation is it not?

Assuming points are combined across all areas, because it doesn't make much sense for overall points from attendance purposes, to do it otherwise. If town runs are frequent then the vet's gonna fall behind the newbie in points, *real* fast if the newbie shows up to everything and the vet only shows up to northlands. Which solves the problem. And if town runs *aren't* frequent, then it's still the same solution (to a lesser extreme), but it's also less unfair because the vet isn't skipping as much in the first place.

The important points:

- The more someone shows up, the more points they accumulate. So someone who shows up consistently *will* accumulate points faster than someone who only occasionally show up, and assuming equal spending (or lack thereof) of points, the person accumulating points faster will eventually have a higher total. (Just lolmath here.)

- The more of an item whore someone is, the fewer points they end up with. Someone who's been around accumulating points a while (whether consistently or not), but who's cheerfully been getting one thing after another, isn't actually gonna have that big a *current* point total. Making them easy enough for a newbie to keep up with, if not overtake.

I still don't see the cause for concern. It's a self-balancing system. The people who are the most difficult to "beat" - that is, with the highest current point totals - are the ones who've put in the most time and gotten the least return. And really, it's fair that such people should be hard to beat.

People who've put in a lot of time but gotten a lot of stuff are relatively easy to beat, as are people who haven't put in much time (due to either a. being new or b. being unreliable) but haven't gotten much stuff.

 

[Courtney]

Assuming points are combined across all areas, because it doesn't make much sense for overall points from attendance purposes, to do it otherwise. If town runs are frequent then the vet's gonna fall behind the newbie in points, *real* fast if the newbie shows up to everything and the vet only shows up to northlands. Which solves the problem. And if town runs *aren't* frequent, then it's still the same solution (to a lesser extreme), but it's also less unfair because the vet isn't skipping as much in the first place.

The important points:

- The more someone shows up, the more points they accumulate. So someone who shows up consistently *will* accumulate points faster than someone who only occasionally show up, and assuming equal spending (or lack thereof) of points, the person accumulating points faster will eventually have a higher total. (Just lolmath here.)

- The more of an item whore someone is, the fewer points they end up with. Someone who's been around accumulating points a while (whether consistently or not), but who's cheerfully been getting one thing after another, isn't actually gonna have that big a *current* point total. Making them easy enough for a newbie to keep up with, if not overtake.

I still don't see the cause for concern. It's a self-balancing system. The people who are the most difficult to "beat" - that is, with the highest current point totals - are the ones who've put in the most time and gotten the least return. And really, it's fair that such people should be hard to beat.

People who've put in a lot of time but gotten a lot of stuff are relatively easy to beat, as are people who haven't put in much time (due to either a. being new or b. being unreliable) but haven't gotten much stuff.

You don't even have to beat the people who already have a lot of stuff most of the time. They already have it, (providing the shell can give them a reason to stay when they get it)

In one of my Dynamis Shells, ~30% of members that come every week aren't lotting AF2 at all, ever.

Random lots work really well for attracting people who are going to lot, and then split when they get what they want though. Points systems work well for people who understand that Dynamis is a long term project if you wnat full sets of gear...

 

[Hach]

Assuming points are combined across all areas, because it doesn't make much sense for overall points from attendance purposes, to do it otherwise. If town runs are frequent then the vet's gonna fall behind the newbie in points, *real* fast if the newbie shows up to everything and the vet only shows up to northlands. Which solves the problem. And if town runs *aren't* frequent, then it's still the same solution (to a lesser extreme), but it's also less unfair because the vet isn't skipping as much in the first place.

The important points:

- The more someone shows up, the more points they accumulate. So someone who shows up consistently *will* accumulate points faster than someone who only occasionally show up, and assuming equal spending (or lack thereof) of points, the person accumulating points faster will eventually have a higher total. (Just lolmath here.)

- The more of an item whore someone is, the fewer points they end up with. Someone who's been around accumulating points a while (whether consistently or not), but who's cheerfully been getting one thing after another, isn't actually gonna have that big a *current* point total. Making them easy enough for a newbie to keep up with, if not overtake.

I still don't see the cause for concern. It's a self-balancing system. The people who are the most difficult to "beat" - that is, with the highest current point totals - are the ones who've put in the most time and gotten the least return. And really, it's fair that such people should be hard to beat.

People who've put in a lot of time but gotten a lot of stuff are relatively easy to beat, as are people who haven't put in much time (due to either a. being new or b. being unreliable) but haven't gotten much stuff.

You really have to consider the time the shell has being going on has a factor too. Basically for shells which has been on for long time, the newbie could took like 1 year to lot their gear compare to the veteran. Usually it is all about a matter for time. Unless the newbie has much patience, they would rather join one which they have a higher chance of getting the relic armor they want. Your theory and concept is correct but comparing to free lot in city run where the newbie after the probation period is able to lot instead of waiting for a year.I don know how the newbie will think now, but i tink to them, the most impt factor should be the time follow by their chances they could get their relic armor.Yeah other than that I agree with u, the points will balance up.. but how long it take to balance is the real problem.

Edit: yeah i agree with u that long time member should have the priviLedge, but if you really wish to have new blood , u got to change a bit. You can't expect every single newbie to understand your concept of oldbie has being long in the shell.

 

[Vilurum]

Well if the shell's been going on for ages, and the veteran's amassed such a huge pile of points that a newbie almost certainly wouldn't be able to beat them for an item they both want, would that not imply that the veteran's put in a *ton* of time themselves, and gotten relatively little for it? Just because the newbie hasn't been around themselves to see that dedication doesn't mean it should go unrewarded.

And if there was random chance involved so the newbie *could* get it first, over the veteran who'd been waiting all that time... I dunno about you, but if I were the veteran in that situation, I'd be pretty damned annoyed and frustrated. What would be the point of sticking around and being helpful only to have that not amount to anything in the end?

Yes, you want people to be willing to join your shell, but even more than that you want people to be willing to *stay* in your shell. You won't get anywhere with a constant turnover of people constantly leaving and new people joining, with extra frequent clearing of cities/Beaucedine for access and a constant learning curve.

And as a general rule, a shell should value the members who *have* been around and helpful for a long time (and are still coming reliably), over a random newbie who has yet to prove their dedication and commitment to the shell. So given the choice between *really* frustrating a veteran who's been waiting ages for something by having the newbie get the item, or having the newbie be denied immediate gratification by having the veteran get the item...

Well it's really no contest to me. If the point system is fair and balanced, then it's really no issue. If it's unbalanced (too fast point gain, too little point expenditure, no real chance of a newbie ever getting comparable points) then that's a problem. But for a balanced system, it's, well, self-balancing. And if you *do* have to decide, reward the person who's proven they deserve something, rather than the person who probably shouldn't be expecting to get much immediately in the first place.

 

[Bajaratt]

You really have to consider the time the shell has being going on has a factor too. Basically for shells which has been on for long time, the newbie could took like 1 year to lot their gear compare to the veteran. Usually it is all about a matter for time. Unless the newbie has much patience, they would rather join one which they have a higher chance of getting the relic armor they want. Your theory and concept is correct but comparing to free lot in city run where the newbie after the probation period is able to lot instead of waiting for a year.I don know how the newbie will think now, but i tink to them, the most impt factor should be the time follow by their chances they could get their relic armor.Yeah other than that I agree with u, the points will balance up.. but how long it take to balance is the real problem.

Edit: yeah i agree with u that long time member should have the priviLedge, but if you really wish to have new blood , u got to change a bit. You can't expect every single newbie to understand your concept of oldbie has being long in the shell.

The ONLY gear that a new member would have to wait that long for would be incredibly rare and desired gear from the northlands. Think RDM hat, PLD body, or THF hands. If they're only going to join a linkshell where they'll get the best of the best gear in a matter of weeks, they're idiots and are most likely going to ditch the shell after getting those items. Any of the city relic pieces that the new recruit is going to need are in all likelihood going to be cheap or free lot; so they'll be able to get several pieces(and for a lot of jobs, they're great pieces) for cheap/free. Yeah, they're totally getting screwed. :wacko:

Vets SHOULD get gear before new people, because they've put the time in. With a long-standing linkshell, the lines are going to be significantly shorter than a relatively new linkshell, because they'll have gotten a lot of the gear people want.

 

[Courtney]

I spent 2 years in each of 2 random lotting shells (one midweek and one weekend) and never got RDM Legs from Jeuno.

More popular jobs will always have people lotting them, and the chance of continually missing out is real, when you keep turning over members.

 

[Hach]

Ok so sorry i forget to state 1 thing. No way the northland should ever be lot to those who got main lot in my opinion. At least for my dynamis LS, North drop is too rare to even let newbie lot. In my opinion opening the city lot to both the new player and vet to lot if they are the main lotter is a good idea to satisfy both. Northland/dreamland should only go to the highest point with main lot for it.

The ONLY gear that a new member would have to wait that long for would be incredibly rare and desired gear from the northlands. Think RDM hat, PLD body, or THF hands. If they're only going to join a linkshell where they'll get the best of the best gear in a matter of weeks, they're idiots and are most likely going to ditch the shell after getting those items. Any of the city relic pieces that the new recruit is going to need are in all likelihood going to be cheap or free lot; so they'll be able to get several pieces(and for a lot of jobs, they're great pieces) for cheap/free. Yeah, they're totally getting screwed. :wacko:

Vets SHOULD get gear before new people, because they've put the time in. With a long-standing linkshell, the lines are going to be significantly shorter than a relatively new linkshell, because they'll have gotten a lot of the gear people want.

Actually the main reason why i stated that passage was to address to Vilurum reply to someone who stated that the old player only attend city run and not northland run. He say that the newbie could easily catch up. I was just stating that time should also be consider. I totally agree with u that Vets should get gear first but life is not always that good. Which bring me to Vilurum post

Well if the shell's been going on for ages, and the veteran's amassed such a huge pile of points that a newbie almost certainly wouldn't be able to beat them for an item they both want, would that not imply that the veteran's put in a *ton* of time themselves, and gotten relatively little for it? Just because the newbie hasn't been around themselves to see that dedication doesn't mean it should go unrewarded.

How i wish every single newbie to dynamis will think the way you do. Sadly this is not the case. Usually people will often see if they could lot any gear or not(of course the reputation of shell is impt too).

And as a general rule, a shell should value the members who *have* been around and helpful for a long time (and are still coming reliably), over a random newbie who has yet to prove their dedication and commitment to the shell. So given the choice between *really* frustrating a veteran who's been waiting ages for something by having the newbie get the item, or having the newbie be denied immediate gratification by having the veteran get the item...

That why northland should still give to people with the highest point first to "reward" the oldbie.

I know my above passage seem very pessimistic. It is as if all newbie are some armor greedy arsehole. Actually I think differently. I believe in order for someone to remain dedicated to a dynamis shell, the person must feel that the shell is good,feel that he is needed and willing to stay. Basically what i am trying to imply is this

Usually what make me continue to do dynamis is my devotion to the shell

This devotion is not something tangible... which make it a more powerful force than others. But in order for this magic to work, you do need people to get into the shell. Well than how do you get people into shell? Well than you need to give them the temptation to try out your shell. Therefore opening the city relic armor for city will definitely be a good temptation for the newbie. And yes I am very optimistic that every single newbie that join my shell will like it though some of them still left though. You will never know if you never let them try. This is a risk that we have to take if we want new blood ^^. Let say, what make you choose a certain company out of the many other company you are interested? Usually first thing is salary. Than the company will do thing to make you stay such as promotion, making u feel good etc (consider that you are good). If you don't like it, than you will leave the company for other company. This is similar to dynamis ^^

After talking so much... I am not sure if i can advertise or not... so i will not write down my dynamis shell website but if u wan to join a dynamis shell... PM me i will sent u the link for the dynamis ls i run in!

 

[Vilurum]

Well something else implied in the notion of bidding is that people don't pick out "main lots" or anything: if you can use it (or, if you can't use it yet but nobody else at all is interested), and you're willing to spend the points on it, then you can go after it. The notion of "main lot" and attendance tiers and such is only meaningful in either a random system or a "always accumulate points and never spend them, highest points in a qualifying category wins" system. Neither of which I have much opinion of - randomness has no rewards for dedication, and constantly accumulating points favors the vets *too* much, since they win *everything* first, by nothing more than inertia.

Also note "bidding", not "cost" - meaning if two people with a relative lot of points are up for the same thing, the winner may end up spending a *lot* of points. Whereas if someone's going for something nobody else is particularly interested in, they may only have to spend a handful to get it. Incorporates a bit of strategy to it: if you deliberately blow off going after something until all the high spenders have gotten it, then you can get it cheap, and thus keep your points for something *you* want to be a high spender for (like RDM hat or something).

In such a system, it's fine to let newbies have the option of bidding in northlands. If it's something nobody wants (or nobody wants much), even their minimal newbie point total can get the item. And if it's something much-desired, the bidding numbers are gonna be out of their league so they wouldn't have a chance of winning until they put in more time (and refrain from heavy spending), or until most or all of the other people interested in the item have gotten it (at which point it's uncompeted).

The same applies just as well to cities, except the bids are likely to be lower due to a. lots of vets already having *gotten* the more common city items and b. people being less willing to bid a large amount of points on something relatively common.

Like I said, it's self-balancing - city vs. northlands, newbie vs. vet, greedy vs. restrained, reliable vs. flaky.

 

[Hach]

woo ok. Sorry i misinterpret you. Yeah i have gotten what u mean vil. Yeah true about it. But one thing i don like about it is that.. there is many politic behind it. There are people who actually conspire so that they will not lose too much pts or people who know someone who want that item and put his pts just to kill his pts esp when the shell got free lot and not job specific. Hell i am guilty of it for passing the lot on D.body for my friend so that he dont lose pt in my ex god shell. Anyway you mention that if you have a job, you can lot it. That might be bad at least for a newbie. Let give an example of THF hands. I am sure anyone that lvl thf will like to have it. But let say a newbie that only have thf wants it. Than he have to lot like 20 over ppl who have thf lvl. But if u restrict it to main lot it might be a different case. I believe you should have other restriction to make it better. Other than that, yeah it is all good and will balance itself over time.

 

[Vilurum]

The system also balances itself for multiple jobs. If you're getting gear for only one of those that you truly care about, then it's no different from someone who just has that one job. If you're getting gear for several of those, then you're probably spending points faster than someone who's only gearing up one job, so the person with only one job should usually be able to outbid you.

As for conspiracies, there's certainly nothing stopping A from talking to B and agreeing that they're competing over the same thing, so A and B can just bid low and save both their points... but there's also nothing stopping C from outbidding both of them.

And it's kinda moot for trying to hike up someone else's bids: if you outbid them by trying to do that, you'll just plain *win*, and then be out your own points. (Which is basically just the same idea as winning the item any other way.) You'll delay the other person getting the item, but then they'll get it next time with whatever (lower) bid they would've used anyway. If they know you're gonna bid high on something, before the bidding takes place, it's their choice whether they want to bid even higher to beat you, or just save their points and let you have your fun and get the item first.

And of course, it stands to reason that people wouldn't be able to just randomly bid on things they already have or things they can't use at all, simply to screw with other people.

I guess I should clarify that by "bid" it would be kind of a hidden process: it wouldn't be like an auction where you know what other people are bidding and go back and forth. You'd just send a tell to the leader with your bid, and you either win or you don't.

 

[Bajaratt]

woo ok. Sorry i misinterpret you. Yeah i have gotten what u mean vil. Yeah true about it. But one thing i don like about it is that.. there is many politic behind it. There are people who actually conspire so that they will not lose too much pts or people who know someone who want that item and put his pts just to kill his pts esp when the shell got free lot and not job specific. Hell i am guilty of it for passing the lot on D.body for my friend so that he dont lose pt in my ex god shell. Anyway you mention that if you have a job, you can lot it. That might be bad at least for a newbie. Let give an example of THF hands. I am sure anyone that lvl thf will like to have it. But let say a newbie that only have thf wants it. Than he have to lot like 20 over ppl who have thf lvl. But if u restrict it to main lot it might be a different case. I believe you should have other restriction to make it better. Other than that, yeah it is all good and will balance itself over time.

I don't buy that there's a ton of underhandedness going on. Most people aren't going to try to jack up the point cost of something, because it could easily backfire on them and they'd have to pay for it. If people enter a bidding war, it's not because they're trying to screw someone by making them spend a lot of points, it's because they both want the item.

Not lotting/bidding because you know someone else wants it more is in no way underhanded, that's called being nice and respectful. Hell, I've passed on some xarc relic I won before, because I found out the person who lotted below me would actually use it(it would give him 5/5 too), as opposed to just adorning my mannequin. Passing after I was already the top lotter actually cost me a few points as per our rules. Yeah, I'm real evil, aren't I?

In your thf example, the new player isn't going to have nearly that much competition in any decent linkshell. Unless they have 20 thieves who only have thief leveled(impossible) or only want thief relic armor(almost impossible), then the others are going to be spending their points on other armor that they have a greater chance of getting and is significantly more effective(TH+1 isn't nearly as big a deal as say, RDM hat). This would reduce the amount of points those 20 others have, and give the new player a better chance of being able to beat them for those relic hands they want so badly. A points system actually benefits those with fewer jobs more, since they don't have to spread their points around multiple jobs and several sets of gear to lot on.

 

[Hach]

Before i go on my talking , i wish to state that i do not hate the bidding system. My current sky ls also use this method too. basically for everytime you attend, you get a certain amount of points. And before we fight the god, we will have a bidding. During the bidding we will tell one of the leader how much points we are willing to bid on the item. After bidding over, the leader will announce everyone bid out and we will know who will get the item. It is a good method but what i am trying to prove that it is not that perfect Vilurum speak of instead it might be a bit better, a bit weaker or equivalent to other style.

Not lotting/bidding because you know someone else wants it more is in no way underhanded, that's called being nice and respectful. Hell, I've passed on some xarc relic I won before, because I found out the person who lotted below me would actually use it(it would give him 5/5 too), as opposed to just adorning my mannequin.

Basically I do not think i am evil too. I pass the lot on D.body cause my friend was a monk and i am only a nin. I believe it would be better for him. It is not about evil but i am just trying to state a point that negotiation can take place .

I don't buy that there's a ton of underhandedness going on. Most people aren't going to try to jack up the point cost of something, because it could easily backfire on them and they'd have to pay for it. If people enter a bidding war, it's not because they're trying to screw someone by making them spend a lot of points, it's because they both want the item.

Have it ever happen to you for example, Item A. For item A, there is player B, C and D who wants it. Basically B has like 400 points B has 300 points and D has 100 Pts. At this point of time for B, B will definitely bid all 300 pts (if for this area he only want this item). Firstly, If B decided not to use all his pts for this item, he have a chance of using all his points. Secondly If A did use all his points , than B have remove 300 of A points making him less a challenge to bid for other items in other place. Is this evil? no. Is this bad? no. This is politics. It is all about who,when and where get what. At this point of time, there could also be negotiation between A and B so that B will bid only 201 pts to minimize the point A lost. I guess using conspire is really a bad part on my place. I apologise for making it seem that the whole thing was an evil and sinister plot.

As for conspiracies, there's certainly nothing stopping A from talking to B and agreeing that they're competing over the same thing, so A and B can just bid low and save both their points... but there's also nothing stopping C from outbidding both of them.

Definitely but if u have being in a dynamis shell long enough, It is not that hard to figure out who actually wants what item too.

And it's kinda moot for trying to hike up someone else's bids: if you outbid them by trying to do that, you'll just plain *win*, and then be out your own points. (Which is basically just the same idea as winning the item any other way.) You'll delay the other person getting the item, but then they'll get it next time with whatever (lower) bid they would've used anyway. If they know you're gonna bid high on something, before the bidding takes place, it's their choice whether they want to bid even higher to beat you, or just save their points and let you have your fun and get the item first.

For me seriously i think i will use up all my points especially after i know that the drop rate in dynamis could be shitting like hell.

Anyway let me give u an example. Currently for my shell there are about 8 with thf or /thf. some got complete set and some not.Ok for this case assume that this 8 person want to have Thf hands (because basically beside thf hands and feet i do not think the rest is that good) Like what both of u stated the more different job they have level, the more difficult for them. So for my shell is main and sub lot, Let assume for clarity that they only wan thf and 1 other job armor. Let say if surprisingly all 8 people their 2nd job is different and they are the keyholder in place. They have always being attending all run and have lotted a few of their item. They are in the key place for their job. Basically they just have to check who is the 2nd in line that want their armor. Let suppose B, who have 370 points, after many run know A want the rdm hat too. So B see A points and realise that A got 269 pts. So in other words B is left with 100 "free points" and so B wish to use this 100 free points for thf. For every run you attend, it will net u 5 points. That mean for a new comer who want thf only, they have to attend at least 21 runs before he is able to win B considering that while he is lotting after thf gears he did not manage to lost points too. That is for B only excluding the other 7. Yes you will be right to say that B is going to be last for his rdm whereas if he actually save the 100 points he might not be last so it balance out.The newbie rdm will be happy but the thf newbie will suffer. Furthermore Like some jobs, there are only like 1 or 2 piece that is consider 'good', they would just need this 1 or 2 gear and the rest does not really matter. Do remember that we are talking about how to attract new blood into dynamis. I stated the lesser waiting time as an attraction. I would agree if you say this 'uncertainty' can be a form of attraction. They can be like the 1st to lot it or the 8th to lot it. But you got to know one thing. When you first join a dynamis ls, firstly the time must fit your schedule. Secondly, is the shell reputation. Thirdly, you will also like to know what you can get out of the shell. For most, i believe something that is clearer will be more attractable.

 

[hellstorm]

True, but drop rate doesn't affect distribution order. Say there is only one drop a year: is it really so good to have that one drop go purely to random chance? Even if you're, say, third in line, you get it in three years guaranteed, whereas if there's a bunch of people lotting for it (once a year), it could be way more than three years.

Though of course, if an item I wanted only dropped once a year, I think it's safe to say that I'd just acknowledge I'd never get it, and not waste the time trying to get it. My patience has its limits, and once a year drop rates are somewhat beyond that limit. XD

You would have pretty low recruiting if city drops was a point system. you have to give your members something to strive for.

 

[Vilurum]

If you're recruiting people who want instant gratification from something like Dynamis, you're recruiting the wrong people anyway.

Besides, remember that (unless the LS never does cities) many of the veterans will already *have* a lot of city AF, and furthermore they probably won't be willing to bid too many points on it (since that would take away from points they could conceivably bid on the rarer northland stuff).

So it's not like competition would be too terribly fierce, and it's also not like the items would be going for super high point bids that no newbie could ever hope to approach. (And if either of these *isn't* the case, the implication therein is that the LS doesn't do cities as much as its members apparently wish it would, and it should therefore stop being quite so northlands-centric.)