Dynamis Shells Funding Weapons

[Firestreak]

Everyone can't get relics though, it's impossible. The amount of coins needed are too many. If you try and sell cheap to bring down the open market, gilsellers can just buy those cheap and then turn around and sell it.

Hell if you sponsor it, people often take your free coins and then leave the LS and sell them all.

 

[Bigboy]

None of what you said fire actually combats what I said. It sounds like Uzor doesn't like Dynamis. And then you go on to say how he has all this great stuff not from Dynamis...

I am not opposed to someone else making money off my work, but in this case, I feel safe in saying that is not the case. I still fail to see how one could complain about coin drops going to 1 person and the LS not getting a split when there is all that AF2 that could be sold to highest bidder. I know I could make far more than 7M selling people lotting rights to AF2 each run in any of the 4 starter cities.

And on the topic of not having a choice wether 1 coins are free falling into people's inventories; LS's cost 8k There is always a choice, whether or not those choices are wise or not remains to be seen, but it should not be taken lightly that the majority of LSs that valued free drop over shell unity are no longer in existance.

 

[Rayebee]

If members have to split the cost of the run - then coins should auto drop.

If the run is pre paid for then it should be agreeds on by the members to let someone upgrade a weapon. i mean if its paid for yall your doing is leeching free Af2. i think the way the Dynasmis LS im in is very fair.

 

[hellstorm]

Everyone can't get relics though, it's impossible. The amount of coins needed are too many. If you try and sell cheap to bring down the open market, gilsellers can just buy those cheap and then turn around and sell it.

Hell if you sponsor it, people often take your free coins and then leave the LS and sell them all.

it funny how you say "gilseller" because majority of the people selling currency are not gil sellers. your right not everyone can have a relic but according to this thread not everyone want 1. As for sponsor and leave comment isent that everywhere? that a chance you take but i said that i do not agree that 1 person should benifrt off the backs of many. If anything then the person should pay for hourglass and get coins. Also there several people in this post who have said they do not care about the coin then pass them or give them to though you know are upgrading weapon, then you be "helping" someone get there relic and everyone would not suffer loss in dynamis. Though who want to sell coins will sell and though who collect will collect.

 

[Lavi]

If members have to split the cost of the run - then coins should auto drop.

If the run is pre paid for then it should be agreeds on by the members to let someone upgrade a weapon. i mean if its paid for yall your doing is leeching free Af2. i think the way the Dynasmis LS im in is very fair.

How is doing ALL the work considered leeching? What is the difference if it's paid for before or after the run? Every run makes more than enough coins considering the sale price (30k+) to pay for a single run and then some. Are you suggesting because someone pays 1 mil gil to get the hour glass, they deserve all the coins or roughly 2 mil profit considering an average of 100+ coins drop in each run (exlcuding outlands)? You can suggest that they would never be able to succeed without a leader, but a leader is still useless without members. The reason people agree to this is because they have no options. Given the choice, they would welcome another shell that ran at the same time and had space available for them, but they don't. Instead they are stuck with a leader who only thinks of his own pocket. Maybe someone should give them a choice. Maybe one of the LS members can step up and start a new shell with FAIR rules.

This kind of behavior is completely unacceptable in a gods LS, but acceptable in a dynamis shell? Don't kid yourself. You're nothing more than common thieves hiding under the guise of leadership.

 

[Firestreak]

None of what you said fire actually combats what I said. It sounds like Uzor doesn't like Dynamis. And then you go on to say how he has all this great stuff not from Dynamis...

Not trying to insult but the reason my response is weak is because your initial point was weak.

You said... "then dynamis gear is probably the best you'll get your hands on."

You're pointing out because of Uzor mentality, dynamis gear is the best he'll get. And so I pointed out his great stuff. NOT FROM DYNAMIS.

Uhh duh?

I am not opposed to someone else making money off my work, but in this case, I feel safe in saying that is not the case. I still fail to see how one could complain about coin drops going to 1 person and the LS not getting a split when there is all that AF2 that could be sold to highest bidder. I know I could make far more than 7M selling people lotting rights to AF2 each run in any of the 4 starter cities.

You're grasping at straws here. You can think of a Sky LS the same way, yet people give abjurations out to members and yet still sell the money items that drop.

If AF2 is the only thing anyone should expect to recieve from their LS, why not have people lot everything that isn't nailed down to the ground? Why not have LS people lot the 100cs and give them to the upgraders too? In fact maybe after we should all go camp King Arthro, p0wn it with our massive numbers, sell the belt and give the 100 million gil to the upgrader as well? See, I can do stupid extremes too that no one is saying they want.

And on the topic of not having a choice wether 1 coins are free falling into people's inventories; LS's cost 8k There is always a choice, whether or not those choices are wise or not remains to be seen, but it should not be taken lightly that the majority of LSs that valued free drop over shell unity are no longer in existance.

And the majority of Kansas voters wanted creationism taught in school. What does that have to do with anything? Are we discussing fairness by logic or are we discussing poll numbers?

 

[Firestreak]

How is doing ALL the work considered leeching? What is the difference if it's paid for before or after the run? Every run makes more than enough coins considering the sale price (30k+) to pay for a single run and then some. Are you suggesting because someone pays 1 mil gil to get the hour glass, they deserve all the coins or roughly 2 mil profit considering an average of 100+ coins drop in each run (exlcuding outlands)? You can suggest that they would never be able to succeed without a leader, but a leader is still useless without members. The reason people agree to this is because they have no options. Given the choice, they would welcome another shell that ran at the same time and had space available for them, but they don't. Instead they are stuck with a leader who only thinks of his own pocket. Maybe someone should give them a choice. Maybe one of the LS members can step up and start a new shell with FAIR rules.

This kind of behavior is completely unacceptable in a gods LS, but acceptable in a dynamis shell? Don't kid yourself. You're nothing more than common thieves hiding under the guise of leadership.

I'll just point out I'm leader of Raye's shell you talking about and I'm not upgrading my weapon. To be honest we haven't sold coins to members yet except at bazaar rate and have like 15 million in our bank. Still building up coins and seeing people's attendance before we start passing them out.

At the moment all we have is the 15 mill + some spare coins from the first few runs, and as far as I'm concerned that's everyone's in the LS's property not mine. I will probably start selling the coins to members cheap once we get low on gil in the bank - but it won't have anything to do with who is leader or sackholder or anything just attendence and intentions to upgrade.

Edit in: I'll just point out on a personal level I don't really care that much because it's so insignifigant to me. That's the point of the system. To take so little from everyone and give to 1 or few. I'd just prefer it not. Just bugs me a little. People for it on the other hand are vehemently for it, making it a funny thing. Annoy 20 people or piss of 10 people so badly they'll quit. To me it's not a question of what is right or wrong, it's obvious that giving all to 1 guy is wrong. It's a question of what's the best choice for the LS long run, which is doing the wrong thing in favor of pleasing the members who don't see it that way.

 

[K. Ishitar]

I think this is what happens when SE makes things like this too long and drawn out to keep us ingame.

They bank on our addiction or "dedication" by making these costs hefty to make that extra buck

People get impatient, and it literally takes a year or more to get the relic whether af or weapon

My ? is that will it hold out?
Another is that will SE lower the tab or increase rates?

I think this is one of the parts of the game they seriously ????ed up.

Its like nm claiming only that its rare/ex and it destroys relationships with shells instead of the economy.

That is what it seems like from someone on the outside looking in

 

[Lavi]

It's always annoying when people bring up the "why do you care so much about what other ls's do?" arguments when someone has a differing opinion. The person with the differing opinion is just stating their opinion and arguing their reasons for having that opinion. Asking why they care about how their opinions apply to another ls is like saying "If you don't care, then why are you replying?"

It's a cheap way out of arguing against someone else's own valid points... or wait, they aren't valid because yours are just so much more valid that they shouldn't even respond.

Anyhow, I am a bit miffed about going to so many dynamis runs over the past few years and having absolutely nothing to show for it except for af2 legs and losing so many days worth of exp. I'd prefer to let coins just drop because, honestly, I'd like to sell the coins so I can buy better/more gear. Relic gear is cool, but I really don't want it that badly to continue doing this at the rate I'm going.

This is exactly how I feel. I have yet to win a single lot for AF2 in 3+ months and having something or anything to show for it, makes it at least bearable on some level. Every time I go into dynamis with the hopes of something, get greatly disappointed and watch as someone else gets 3 pieces in a single night. I lose a little gil on food if I need to use any (WHM doesn't really need to, melee spend a lot more especially if they get themselves killed often) and sometimes a whole lot of exp. For what? Gear that is obsolete or situational at best? Or so someone I could care less gets a relic upgrade that benefits me in no way whatsoever? I'll take my 100k, thank you very much. WHich is more greedy? One person wanting it all for himself or everyone wanting a little something so they don't go home empty handed?

Who is taking the stance that someone should get coins cuz their not getting AF2 much anymore. Theres still Shadow Items, Xarcabard AF2 etc etc...

Firestreak, nobody is gonna change their LS rules because of your posts here. And your bordering on personal attacks by trying to disrepute people's positions in their linkshells. This type of posting isn't allowed here.

Losing an arguement, so cry foul? Shadow items are PLD and maybe NIN only. So 90% of the people only have the option of AF2 which in all respects they earned. They are the ones pulling, sleeping, nuking, and killing mobs so you can get the coins which ARE guaranteed to drop often and occasionally a piece of AF2. They have no guarantee. Did you earn 3-4 million gil off their effort because you payed for the entrance fee? I don't see how you or any other relic upgrader performed above and beyond everyone else to deserve such privelage.

 

[decidence]

I don't see how you see yourself as someone that can decide who is privvy to what. It's the leaders that make the rules, and neither you or I am one of them.

The reason people don't make new dynamis LS's with rules that are "fair" as you describe them because not everyone thinks that they need 100k per dynamis run. Not everyone wants to sacrifice their time and effort to leave a LS thats successful and skilled just so they can get another 100k per run. Its rediculous and not worth it.

If your in a LS thats skilled enough to kill Dynamis Lord then you shouldn't be the type of person that needs an extra 200k a week. Players at that level don't need money THAT bad.

 

[Bigboy]

Not trying to insult but the reason my response is weak is because your initial point was weak.

You said... "then dynamis gear is probably the best you'll get your hands on."

You're pointing out because of Uzor mentality, dynamis gear is the best he'll get. And so I pointed out his great stuff. NOT FROM DYNAMIS.

Uhh duh?

Miss-representation of my words by ony using half the sentence and removing the qualifier.

You're grasping at straws here. You can think of a Sky LS the same way, yet people give abjurations out to members and yet still sell the money items that drop.

If AF2 is the only thing anyone should expect to recieve from their LS, why not have people lot everything that isn't nailed down to the ground? Why not have LS people lot the 100cs and give them to the upgraders too? In fact maybe after we should all go camp King Arthro, p0wn it with our massive numbers, sell the belt and give the 100 million gil to the upgrader as well? See, I can do stupid extremes too that no one is saying they want.



And the majority of Kansas voters wanted creationism taught in school. What does that have to do with anything? Are we discussing fairness by logic or are we discussing poll numbers?

All irrelivent strawman arguments. If you can't discuss this properly then don't discuss it at all. You keep pulling examples from out of dynamis, which makes them irrelivent, then you miss-quote me, and attack that when your argument is invalid with all information present.

Really, if you have to just make wild comparisons that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, then you aren't convincing anyone. Stay on topic. Sky != dynamis.

 

[Firestreak]

Miss-representation of my words by ony using half the sentence and removing the qualifier.

"If 100k for 3 hours work appeals to you, then dynamis gear is probably the best you'll get your hands on."

Here is the full sentence I supposedely mis-represented.

If Uzor values the 100k for 3 hours work then Dynamis gear is the best he'll get his hands on.

Uzor obviously values that 100k based on that fact it's rightfully his. Yet he has gear better than Dynamis. Your point is disproven. Where is the mis-representation?

When I XP 3 hours up in Ulli room there's a good chance I'll get one of those rare 100k items to drop off the states. Raxa or something. While I don't go up there to for Raxa, if Raxa drops I don't automatically give it to someone who might use it for crafting. It's all of the parties who earned to create it not just one person. Because I value that 100k I have more money for gil and food. Why should 1 person get it just because I'm there for something else?

All irrelivent strawman arguments. If you can't discuss this properly then don't discuss it at all. You keep pulling examples from out of dynamis, which makes them irrelivent, then you miss-quote me, and attack that when your argument is invalid with all information present.

Really, if you have to just make wild comparisons that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, then you aren't convincing anyone. Stay on topic. Sky != dynamis.

Just saying my comparisons are irrelevant doesn't make them irrelevant. I showed how you can functionally compare sky to dynamis. Money drops the coins, abjuration to AF2. You instead of consider the opinion scoff at it because it doesn't suit your needs without even ATTEMPTING to take a point against it. Sorry I don't consider that "discussing properly". I consider that a closed minded individual.

The reason people don't make new dynamis LS's with rules that are "fair" as you describe them because not everyone thinks that they need 100k per dynamis run. Not everyone wants to sacrifice their time and effort to leave a LS thats successful and skilled just so they can get another 100k per run. Its rediculous and not worth it.

If your in a LS thats skilled enough to kill Dynamis Lord then you shouldn't be the type of person that needs an extra 200k a week. Players at that level don't need money THAT bad.

This is a logical fallacy. If 100k is irrelevant then why do you want it so badly? If it's wrong in principle it's wrong regardless of scale. The scale is just low enough that most people who disagree will tolerate it. By agreeing to join a Dynamis LS doesn't mean someone agrees with every one of the views.

 

[Bajaratt]

When I XP 3 hours up in Ulli room there's a good chance I'll get one of those rare 100k items to drop off the states. Raxa or something. While I don't go up there to for Raxa, if Raxa drops I don't automatically give it to someone who might use it for crafting. It's all of the parties who earned to create it not just one person. Because I value that 100k I have more money for gil and food. Why should 1 person get it just because I'm there for something else?

By that same note, why is it wrong if a linkshell decides as a shell to upgrade someone's weapon? It's their decision to do so, so there really isn't anything unfair about it.

 

[Firestreak]

By that same note, why is it wrong if a linkshell decides as a shell to upgrade someone's weapon? It's their decision to do so, so there really isn't anything unfair about it.

Why take the coins and give to the upgrader? If everyone is so set on it, wouldn't everyone just hand the coins over on their own to the person they deem fit to get the coins?

Personally, I would probably give my coins up. However...

I don't see myself as charitable by giving someone ELSE'S coins to a person. Specially if 1 person may be struggling for gil and the other person is very wealthy. I don't see taking gil from soneone who barely is affording their food and reraise pins and giving it to Decidence who is very wealthy so he can get his Katana a little bit faster.(He'll still I'm assuming have to buy shitloads of coins anyway.) Furthermore, what if several people want to upgrade their weapon? By saying "No it's this guy." Then people can't even get coins from their own run to upgrade themselves. That was the line in the sand for me which is why I won't have my shell focus on one person alone.


Edit in: The hidden meaning in my first paragraph. If you don't think people will hand their coins over by choice if the linkshell doesn't demand they do, then you know truly it's not their choice that the coins are pooled in the first place. Rather a minority demand it and the majority put up with it.

 

[Uzor]

since when did we compare my gear to Dynamis? ; I don't se how that have to do with anything.

Either way,

If you don't think people will hand their coins over by choice if the linkshell doesn't demand they do, then you know truly it's not their choice that the coins are pooled in the first place. Rather a minority demand it and the majority put up with it.

sums up what I said in this and last thread rather good. I don't think forcing people to give up their coins is fair, as they really don't have a choice whether they want to give up the coins or not. Its turning Master loot on whenever something drops, they don't even get a chance to lot on it (and thus not a chance to give them up, either)

 

[Lavi]

So far, Firestreak, Uzor, Rones, and Peregrine (never saw it coming) have it dead on. If you really think the LS considers your rules fair, why not let the coins auto drop or pool then split and at the end of the run ask the LS if they are each willing to give their coins freely to Cythe? To make it fair, have an anonymous vote if you want. If you think for a second everyone in your LS agrees with the policy, you are mistaken. They put up with it because they don't have a choice and getting a single piece of relic may be worth putting up with a greedy leader. I bet you anything if another LS came along that went at the exact time as your runs and proved themselves to be a decent shell, they could and would steal your members in a heartbeat.

So really, if you think you guys know your members and they are willing to give the coins up of their free will, then why don't you give them that chance? Seriously, I dare you to try it just once. See how many really agree with you and how many think you are just a greedy SOB. Now to make it fair, have some third party pool the coins so its all anonymous and no one feels compelled to give the coins for fear of repurcussions. If you want me to do it, I am more than willing to act as that third party (I'd actually love to see the outcome, be very interesting to say the least) and I can guarantee you a fair and accurate count.

 

[Lavi]

Just a note, but is it me or do the only people who seem to support linkshells funding relic upgrades, the ones who most benefit from it?

 

[Marajade]

Just a note, but is it me or do the only people who seem to support linkshells funding relic upgrades, the ones who most benefit from it?

i support it 100%, because i think people doing Dynamis for gil are idiots. Leads put up the money in the first place, and then have to hope on faith that you'll show up, not wipe before 1m of coins can drop, and let you take AF away from the whole thing.

Seriously, no one is forcing you to join our shell. Sure, we're the only ones in the time you can make, but if you dont like the rules? dont join.

Also, should people suddenly jump ship to a new LS that opens up with different rules? I'll gladly inform the shells leader about those who jumped after obtaining AF, and warn him that since they only seem to care about the benifit to themselves, they'd be better off not accepting them, since they're likely to jump out of his shell once they've gotten what they need.
Sky has the same problem. People get gear, and bail on the shell, forcing them to recruit new members, then gear up those members, and repeat when the new people jump ship, thus keeping the shell from being able to move forward to other things. Oops, three of your RDMs jump out after getting Xarca hat to finish set? Well, now you need 3 more RDMs, and need to get them Xarca acces to boot.

Would i welcome an extra 100k a week? Sure. Do i care that its going to Decidence and Wagnus? Not a bit, because i know that the coins are going to the upgrade, and i got my relic. My scouts Bracce are easily worth 5m+ to me.

 

[Lavi]

i support it 100%, because i think people doing Dynamis for gil are idiots. Leads put up the money in the first place, and then have to hope on faith that you'll show up, not wipe before 1m of coins can drop, and let you take AF away from the whole thing.

Seriously, no one is forcing you to join our shell. Sure, we're the only ones in the time you can make, but if you dont like the rules? dont join.

Also, should people suddenly jump ship to a new LS that opens up with different rules? I'll gladly inform the shells leader about those who jumped after obtaining AF, and warn him that since they only seem to care about the benifit to themselves, they'd be better off not accepting them, since they're likely to jump out of his shell once they've gotten what they need.
Sky has the same problem. People get gear, and bail on the shell, forcing them to recruit new members, then gear up those members, and repeat when the new people jump ship, thus keeping the shell from being able to move forward to other things. Oops, three of your RDMs jump out after getting Xarca hat to finish set? Well, now you need 3 more RDMs, and need to get them Xarca acces to boot.

Would i welcome an extra 100k a week? Sure. Do i care that its going to Decidence and Wagnus? Not a bit, because i know that the coins are going to the upgrade, and i got my relic. My scouts Bracce are easily worth 5m+ to me.

Sky's got a lot of shells where the leader uses the members and the LS bank to benefit their pocket. Some have used the bank to fund crafting, others just to get the best gear with no actual work. So what's your point? Different setting, same problem. So it's ok in dynamis to work for one person, but not in sky? Tomorrow, I am gonna start a new shell. I'll call it "CashCow" and I'm going to invite Cythe, Marajade, Ellemire, Decidence and all the rest of you. You can all farm pop NMs and kill the gods, I'll orchestrate the entire thing (it's really hard) and when we get drops, you can all keep the rare/ex abjs/god gear, but all sellable items go to me to sell so I can use them to further myself until I have a fully upgraded e-peen. Deal?

 

[Firestreak]

I doubt many people are gonna steal members based on 1 coins going here or there. I don't see it as being a major issue to anyone.

I'm just pointing out it isn't very fair regardless.

I doubt anyone still interested in AF2 is going to make or break staying based on the coin setup... but of course someone getting fed coins is going ot stay for the long run. People with all their AF2 and not upgrading on the other hand... well who knows what those people are going to do. I doubt them losing gil week after week will help.