End-game, non-traditional tank classes

[jamal]

Recently the new-tank thread was split-off for a great deal of time regarding techniques in endgame tanking by jobs that hadn't up until the past year been used as focal tanks for parties.
Due to the amount of hate a RDM can accumulate over time, they can cap themselves out at the same amount of enmity as a PLD.
Fights this has been used on include this and this and this. (Please edit while quoting).
RDM has the versatility to perform a number of tasks once they have reached top level and merits, and tanking HNMs is one of the tasks they may be asked to perform.
If you'd like to further read on some of the rdm tanking, BG has quite a library of succesful RDM-tanked End-game LS's.
Please discuss below the abilities that prove most useful for RDM, the gearsets one might use, and the skills one must possess.
It also might be interesting to hear about other non-traditional End-game tanking possibilities.

 

[Caerloc]

Nice thread. I foresee alot of good posts.

Main HNM tanks:
PLD
NIN
RDM

To a lesser extent;
WAR
DRK

Dead endgame tanks
BRD

Endgame tanks being tested
WHM
BLU?


Not gonna divulge much into the main tanks,

I would probably say DRK is more of a tank then WAR is, since war pretty much can only tank stuff they can hurt. Wich pretty much limits it to Faf/nid/ks99wyrm (and to a lesser extent cerberus) Atleast while still maintaining viable damage-mitigation. DRK on the other hand has access to a hefty amount of hatetools in their spells, and are able to tank pretty much any HNM, excluding Khimaira since you dont want to use stun on him. This also puts nin on the backburner for Khimaira. They can do it, but its not great.

BRD and sub brd is pretty much a dead tankingform with the nerfing of enmitygain on mazurka.

WHM has recently tanked tiamat, mainly with the use of barspells. But i think as opposed to RDM, whm is a magejob that lacks that little extra that actually makes them a good tank.

I dont know much about BLU tanking, i just hear they have acess to a decent amount of hategaining tools, and i can totally see them being able to tank, expecially since they have a nice gearselection for it.

And most toptier damagedealers (war, drk, mnk, nin etc) can be used to tank in events like dynamis, limbus, salvage, assault, nyzul. Probably will want to bring PLD's for einherjar still.

 

[jamal]

Can't take credit for this myself, but remembered Vil had mentioned Blu's big hate spell here, the rest of his post agrees with what you said above as well:

Exuviation is stupid amounts of hate, Diffusion Exuviation hitting 6 people is even more so. Ultimately, of course, a BLU - or any job really - would have to do two things to be a general purpose tank:

1. Generate and maintain hate effectively, reliably, and quickly.
2. Not be a pain to keep alive, so some good sort of damage mitigation (be it zeroing damage entirely like utsu or stoneskin, or simply cutting it down like defense, VIT, or -dmg%).

If you subtract the "quickly" part from point 1, then a job can be an effective tank period, but would need more time to build hate. This means a job can be a perfectly suitable tank for long drawn out fights (hi2u RDMs), but wouldn't be a viable tank in exp or anything that involves a large number of trash mobs (like most stuff in Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, etc.).

 

[Caerloc]

I wonder what the recast is for Exuviation. But its not like they dont have acess to other tools anyways. They have cure III and IV (sorta) and among all their spells there are bound to be a few with decent hate/low mpcost/reasonable cast time. I dont think hate would be a big trouble for BLU.

Its not entirely unthinkable for BLU's not to need to sub ninja to tank some mobs to. I remember that by simply subbing BLU on my BRD i could easily reach some 850 defense or so, with a decent amount of free Vit comming from spells. But ofcourse they can always sub nin anyways, they wouldnt exactly stay short of hate tools anyways.

But in order to make them a great tank they probably need some if that little extra. Like paladin and their abilitys and shieldskill. Ninjas with their extra shadows and parrying and evasion, redmages with their convert, fastcast and magic defense bonus. Something that gives them an edge, not just simple enmity generation and damage mitigation. Its entirely possible that the edges exists, my knowledge of the job isnt very profound.

 

[Uzor]

BLU's can tank, and pretty good as well. Exuviation hitting 6 people give 3840 VE and CE. It can be cast every 30 sec (15 with capped cast time), giving 640 VE and CE. So you can cap CE somewhat fast, although your VE will actually reduce by 260 each time. That is assuming you use no enmity modifications, though.

They can also get a very good magic defense bonus and defense through the use of spells, as well as auto-refresh. It does, however, require more MP to do then RDM.

 

[Caerloc]

Yeah, i didnt doubt their basic tanking abilitys. They have basic enmity generation and damage mitigation covered. What i was looking for was the edges that makes a tank great. And lets not forget that for each ability you want to gain you probably have to sacrifice spells that would be used for enmity generation. And you dont exactly get an unlimited amount off spells.

 

[Uzor]

there's not a lot of great enmity generating spells for BLU, that's why its not that used as a tank. You'll mainly want to use Exuviation and Magic Fruit for enmity generation, then set a magic defense and cocoon for defense. Then some HP up and auto refresh combinations, as well as magic defense bonus. Oh, and Diamondhide as well, as that's a somewhat decent hate grabber/defense skill.

 

[Caerloc]

Diamondhide has a pretty terrible casting time tho, doesnt it?
Im not seeing anything that compares to Shield mastery, Fast cast, Extra Shadows, Convert or extreeme Evasion and Parrying.

 

[Uzor]

Yes, but its an awesome defense spell, and pulls good CE, if I remember right.

 

[Taurothar]

Just a thought, wouldn't BLU/PLD be a decent combo? Use a Genbu's Shield and a decent sword, probably Homam gear in most slots for the overall better tanking stats than most other BLU gear.

Shield Bash, Shield Mastery, Sentinel, Flash, Auto Refresh, basic cures, Cover all from /PLD

That gives you more room to do more with your spells toward tanking than any other sub, and /NIN is hardly effective when you have a lot of other casting to do while getting swung at.

 

[Dejavu]

There is a lot of progress being made as far as sam/nin dual tanking in salvage especially.

 

[Uzor]

There is a lot of progress being made as far as sam/nin dual tanking in salvage especially.

Wrong. In most situations, SAM/WAR is a much better tank for Salvage. Third Eye doesn't stack with Shadows, and Third Eye alone is usually enough to tank the bosses. For almost everything else, Third Eye is enough to tank. The exception is Arrapago Boss, as that one ignores Third Eye. Even Archaic Gear/s works great, as Third Eye ignores the magic attacks, while Utsusemi is removed by them, allowing the SAM to avoid attacks after the AoE's. So yes, SAM tank works great, even without /NIN.

Just a thought, wouldn't BLU/PLD be a decent combo? Use a Genbu's Shield and a decent sword, probably Homam gear in most slots for the overall better tanking stats than most other BLU gear.

Shield Bash, Shield Mastery, Sentinel, Flash, Auto Refresh, basic cures, Cover all from /PLD

That gives you more room to do more with your spells toward tanking than any other sub, and /NIN is hardly effective when you have a lot of other casting to do while getting swung at.

BLU/PLD would be pretty horrible for tanking, as for most things you need shadows to tank. The exception would be things that rely on magic attacks, such as Jailer of Love.

 

[Dayner]

nvm i fail

>_>

 

[Karma]

Information regarding Enmity that I have compiled for my forum along with other things... http://www.ffxiintrepid.com/viewtopic.php?t=262

Starting with the basics...
-----Enmity-----
All information found in this post was generated via Kanican livejournal. I simply compiled the information into one post.
Reference link -> http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

TERMS
-Cumulative Enmity (CE) - The enmity of an action that does not decay naturally over time.
-Volatile Enmity (VE) - The enmity of an action that does decay naturally over time.
-Total Enmity (TE) - The sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity; the highest determines who has "hate".

Frequently asked Questions/Answers
Hate Generation
-Enmity generated will be the same whether a spell resist, has “no effect”, or lands.
-All actions in this game produce at least 1 unit of non-naturally decaying hate (the Base Unit).
-The act of pulling grants an extra enmity bonus to the puller.

Hate Cap
-Volatile Enmity does cap and does so at 10,000 VE - the same cap as CE.
-The maximum Enmity any player can reach is 20,000 TE - 10,000 CE and 10,000 VE
-Volatile Enmity can still be gained even once Cumulative Enmity has been capped.
-Hate is decided by the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity (Total Enmity).

Hate Decay
-The natural Volatile Enmity Decay Rate is -60 VE per second for all actions with Volatile Enmity. [ex. Provoke in 30sec | Flash in ~21sec (Base VE)]
-Enmity Gear does not affect the VE Hate Decay Rate in any fashion.
-Dispel has a significant non-decaying hate portion.
-"Zoning" or "Logging Out" does not immediately reset Enmity to 0.

Enmity
-Enmity Gear grants a direct percentage increase on Cumulative Enmity of actions.
--Final CE = [Base CE] x { 1 + [Enmity Enhancement] / 100 }
-Enmity Gear increases the VE of an ability in the same fashion as it affects CE - direct % increase.
--Final CE = [Base CE] x { 1 + [Enmity Enhancement] / 100 }
--Final VE = [Base VE] x { 1 + [Enmity Enhancement] / 100 }
-The "Enmity Enhancement" of Sentinel is the equivalent of +100 Enmity.
"Enmity Enhancement" by special status or gear has an "upper cap" of +100 Enmity.

Evade, Utsusemi, Stoneskin, Blink
-Evading or taking 0 damage from an attack causes no enmity loss.
-Evading an attack through use of Utsusemi Shadow Loss causes an enmity loss.

Distance
-Distances between 0'-20' at which an action is used relative to the mob does not affect the hate gained.
-If an action is performed on a player at a distance 25.0' or greater from the mob, no Enmity is gained.

Adventurer’s Dirge
-Adventurer's Dirge does not affect the Volatile Enmity Decay Rate.
-Adventurer's Dirge LVL1 grants a player a straight -10 Enmity Enhancement.

Spell, Job Ability CE/VE List
Clicky -> http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html
-Number of CE Non-Damage Actions Completed - 184 / 358
-Number of VE Non-Damage Actions Completed - 154 / 358

 

[Dejan]

Nice thread. I foresee alot of good posts.

Main HNM tanks:
PLD
NIN
RDM

To a lesser extent;
WAR
DRK

Dead endgame tanks
BRD

Endgame tanks being tested
WHM
BLU?


Not gonna divulge much into the main tanks,

I would probably say DRK is more of a tank then WAR is, since war pretty much can only tank stuff they can hurt. Wich pretty much limits it to Faf/nid/ks99wyrm (and to a lesser extent cerberus) Atleast while still maintaining viable damage-mitigation. DRK on the other hand has access to a hefty amount of hatetools in their spells, and are able to tank pretty much any HNM, excluding Khimaira since you dont want to use stun on him. This also puts nin on the backburner for Khimaira. They can do it, but its not great.

BRD and sub brd is pretty much a dead tankingform with the nerfing of enmitygain on mazurka.

WHM has recently tanked tiamat, mainly with the use of barspells. But i think as opposed to RDM, whm is a magejob that lacks that little extra that actually makes them a good tank.

I dont know much about BLU tanking, i just hear they have acess to a decent amount of hategaining tools, and i can totally see them being able to tank, expecially since they have a nice gearselection for it.

And most toptier damagedealers (war, drk, mnk, nin etc) can be used to tank in events like dynamis, limbus, salvage, assault, nyzul. Probably will want to bring PLD's for einherjar still.

I agree with what you said here mate, totally, but i honestly think Drk can be just as good on longer battles as pld/nin/rdm. To start with, they share pretty much everything Plds can equip, including bahamut's mask, Mac+1's, hades+1, cerb, etc... Having a tonne of +enm on a drk/nin, with march/ballad/haste can guarantee a tonne of fast generating enimity. Spamming the oh so common Stun > Sleep > Bind we always see on nin/drk's can work the other way arround, tossing in some more spells, JA's, etc.

Actually, if you come to think about it, you can get a lot of other non-used jobs to work out for many different situations; you just have to have a bit of an imagination do to so.

 

[Knightblade]

If SAM was to ever become a tank, I'd actually like that. It'd be a hybrid DD/tank of course, no other way to get hate. Unless you count provoke etc, but thats sub job.

 

[Caerloc]

Yeah, DRK/NIN can tank most anything. They pretty much dont even need to use mac+1, bahamask and other enmity stuff. I know Serise likes to do that, but honestly, its just retarded. He'd get a much better result by just keeping his melee gear on and toss in a few stuns. You could argue the need for enmity gear on things kited i guess, but other then that, unless your melee gear is lacking, you dont much need it.

And the reason why i didnt say it was as good as PLD RDM or NIN is that they just dont seem to have anything extra going for them, like i talked about with BLU. But they can surely tank anything pretty much tho. I know Zero prefers to tank everything on DRK nowadays, including tiamat, and he has a Aegis, defending ring hauteclaire PLD.

 

[jamal]

Something I'm curious about from the RDM tanking perspective in reference to Wyrms only I suppose...how is a Roar normally recovered from. The NIN/DRK became an optimal choice back when I participated in Wyrms because of the vast amount of hate that could be immediately gained by using Souleater.
I just remember certain Jorms and a few Tiamats where under 25% we'd get multiple Roars or Roar spams. As PLD it was much much tougher to get hate back immediately. I don't mean this as a bash against RDM tanks by any means, I'm just curious, as this was of major concern. If 45 seconds to one minute is the solid hate window, what provisions are made during that time. I realize multiple tanks, my concern is roar spams.

 

[Uzor]

I'm not sure, I haven't actually attempted to tank anything on RDM myself, as I don't feel like buying a lot of enmity equipment that I'll rarely use. Perhaps Caerloc can answer.

 

[Caerloc]

Roar, first off is pretty uncommon nowadays. In touchdowns, the wyrms tp is reset to 0, and a wyrm can only roar on the ground. So if you are smart in your fighting the wyrm rarely has tp on the ground. Typically only use bloodpacts on the ground wich are TP-less, and possibly a few ws's. I typically see maybe 1-2 roar in a whole tiamat fight, and never more then 1 ws tops in one landing. So multiple roars arent an issue.

But roars do happen and naturally you want to recover as fast as possible. Convert is offcourse nice. I can normally get convert off even while having hate, offcourse you have to be somewhat carefull. But when you're roared you dont even have to. You know the wyrm just used tp, so you dont have to worry about a stray WS, you arent busy tanking so you can pretty much just go to town.

Convert lets you cure yourself for atleast 3 full CureIV's. After that i pretty much spam dispel and blind nonstop. Blind has a recast time of 5 secs when fully hasted, and a cast time off little over 1 sec with fastcast. Its the hate of half a flash. Dispel also has a 5 sec recast, but a little longer cast time.

It may not give the extreme amount of hate that nin/drk can produce, but its not that far. Downside is you somewhat deplete your MP-pool. Wich usually can be countermeasured with devotion. If not, you CAN live of sleep and blind, for 19 and 5 mp each. You just cant cure anyone. But as i said, roars dont happen that often, and even nins live on timers with souleater.