"Expanding" Endgame Linkshells

[Soujiro]

I really don't want to keep posting defending the side that I'm technically agaisnt but people really need to stop pointing the finger at one person from a ls, the leader. If and only if this nameless leader had every member's POL ID and POL password can he be holding the proverbial gun to his members' heads and they have "no choice" but to submit or else their characters are deleted. As long as there is even one other choice they can make then there is no "forceing members" as everyone seems to want to believe.

It's more like a competing company offering you the same position as what you are working at your current company only they offer you $10 more an hour. Is the owner of the competing company screwing over your current employer if you leave? Not really, he has no ties to the company you are working for and no concern for it's well being. It's you who will be doing the screwing over if you leave.

Leaders aren't leaders if no one follows them either. I personally knew about Perseverence forming a Dynamis shell probably 3 months before they started and I'm not a member. I don't think that these leaders that everyone wants to villify just up and decided one day, "hey we're going to be doing Dynamis and you guys need to go quit your other shells or else!" Sorry that just doesn't seem likely to me. I'd imagine there would have to have been alot of support to get the ball rolling and make the decision final, support from the majority of it's members. If you have a shell with 50 members in it, and the leader proposes something like this and 45 out of the 50 say they are against it do you really think that it's still going to move forward and happen?

I know that the vast majority of shell leaders and pets get their hands on drops first and it seems to be self serving but really that's as much fault as the followers for allowing it as it is the leaders for doing it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and actions done by others they support. I'm just getting tired of hearing the bs of "they made me do it." No, if it really bothered you that much then you wouldn't submit to it and what's the worst that can happen? Is that the only endgame shell out there? That is a choice you know, it may not be the most savory one but if you think you are being coerced into doing something you don't want to, do you really think that's the right shell for you?

I'm not going to feel sorry for these people and treat them like victims. If anything they are making out better than ever. They get to A) do dynamis with their friends B) earn even more points to go towards their ridill/ebody/dalmatica and C) make off with any AF / 100c / attestations / zone wins they got from their previous shell like a bandit in the night and all they have to say is "they made me do it!" and they get a "get out of jail free" card. No bridges burned for them, all blame can go to the villianous shell leader.

 

[jyakotsu]

I lead Epitome and here's my reply to this
Not quoting all your bullshit, all i hear is blah blah blah. im a liar, blah blah blah

I am going to go with Zer on this, when i was told about epitome starting dynamis. Alot of my friends were frustrated because they had to leave their friends, as well as TBH. The reasoning behind why they were forced to leave was simply stated "Our leader said we had to choose between epitome and Dynamis." Now Rone if you are forcing people to do such a thing, you are a prick. You sir screwed over about 3-5 linkshells by forcing core members of their linkshells to make a decision to lose work on either end of their spectrum. They either lose all of their points w/ Zer's Dynamis linkshell, or they lose all their points with yours. Either way they were screwed.

Now do you think its fair to screw over your members just because you want your relic weapon? I BET, not sure, but i bet your coins are going to upgrade your relic... AM i right rone?

Now get a grip on reality, is it really fair to force your members to choose your dynamis shell or be removed from epitome? because about 2-4 of my friends had told me you left them w/ that decision....

 

[Zoolander]

A lot? yes. All? Not quite. There are still some genuine leaders left in FFXI who put team before self I think. Most of them just aren't in the big name LS's you all hear about.

I won't argue with the last line though. Greed def dictates 95% of what goes on in that game.

Just kinda wondering, do you actually have any evidence to support that statement, or do you just love to hate the big name LS and assume that their leads must be corrupt of they have any good gear whatsoever? You've been preaching that theory for a long time, but I can only think of a couple leads that act that way, and they are in big and small LS.

Edit: And just so this is clear, I'm in no way approving of giving your members an ultimatum that says either you are with us or you are with them. Thats giving no respect towards other dynamis shells, but more importantly, no respect towards your own members to let them make their own decisions. If you really think giving 6 points a week is the same as an ultimatum, then I honestly dont know what to tell you.

 

[jyakotsu]

I really don't want to keep posting defending the side that I'm technically agaisnt but people really need to stop pointing the finger at one person from a ls, the leader. If and only if this nameless leader had every member's POL ID and POL password can he be holding the proverbial gun to his members' heads and they have "no choice" but to submit or else their characters are deleted. As long as there is even one other choice they can make then there is no "forceing members" as everyone seems to want to believe.

It's more like a competing company offering you the same position as what you are working at your current company only they offer you $10 more an hour. Is the owner of the competing company screwing over your current employer if you leave? Not really, he has no ties to the company you are working for and no concern for it's well being. It's you who will be doing the screwing over if you leave.

Leaders aren't leaders if no one follows them either. I personally knew about Perseverence forming a Dynamis shell probably 3 months before they started and I'm not a member. I don't think that these leaders that everyone wants to villify just up and decided one day, "hey we're going to be doing Dynamis and you guys need to go quit your other shells or else!" Sorry that just doesn't seem likely to me. I'd imagine there would have to have been alot of support to get the ball rolling and make the decision final, support from the majority of it's members. If you have a shell with 50 members in it, and the leader proposes something like this and 45 out of the 50 say they are against it do you really think that it's still going to move forward and happen?

I know that the vast majority of shell leaders and pets get their hands on drops first and it seems to be self serving but really that's as much fault as the followers for allowing it as it is the leaders for doing it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and actions done by others they support. I'm just getting tired of hearing the bs of "they made me do it." No, if it really bothered you that much then you wouldn't submit to it and what's the worst that can happen? Is that the only endgame shell out there? That is a choice you know, it may not be the most savory one but if you think you are being coerced into doing something you don't want to, do you really think that's the right shell for you?

I'm not going to feel sorry for these people and treat them like victims. If anything they are making out better than ever. They get to A) do dynamis with their friends B) earn even more points to go towards their ridill/ebody/dalmatica and C) make off with any AF / 100c / attestations / zone wins they got from their previous shell like a bandit in the night and all they have to say is "they made me do it!" and they get a "get out of jail free" card. No bridges burned for them, all blame can go to the villianous shell leader.

Real easy, force them to attend events or remove them from a HNM/sky/Sea linkshell. I wouldnt want to lose 5000 points from my HNM linkshell because i decided to stay with my dynamis shell.... Its not always fair dude. Think about it

 

[jyakotsu]

Just kinda wondering, do you actually have any evidence to support that statement, or do you just love to hate the big name LS and assume that their leads must be corrupt of they have any good gear whatsoever? You've been preaching that theory for a long time, but I can only think of a couple leads that act that way, and they are in big and small LS.

I dont think he said all Big name linkshells had crappy leaders zoo, i think rather he said that most tend to be greedy.. He didnt single out 1 single linkshell in that statement, and he is free to generalize as much as he wants... Because in the realm of this game its true, alot of ffxi members are gear>friends... Look at all those posts on "OMG my friend stole my account." "OMG my friend took 4 MILLION GIL FROM ME."

Alot of people are just greedy.

 

[Zoolander]

I dont think he said all Big name linkshells had crappy leaders zoo, i think rather he said that most tend to be greedy.. He didnt single out 1 single linkshell in that statement, and he is free to generalize as much as he wants... Because in the realm of this game its true, alot of ffxi members are gear>friends... Look at all those posts on "OMG my friend stole my account." "OMG my friend took 4 MILLION GIL FROM ME."

Alot of people are just greedy.

I don't know, everything I've ever seen in end game personaly has been selfless leaders that put in twice as much time during and outside of events than everyone else and ask of nothing in return, and pass items to others all the time. Most of those people who steal from others are not end game LS leaders, although there are obviously a couple.

 

[jyakotsu]

I don't know, everything I've ever seen in end game personaly has been selfless leaders that put in twice as much time during and outside of events than everyone else and ask of nothing in return, and pass items to others all the time. Most of those people who steal from others are not end game LS leaders, although there are obviously a couple.

I can point out a few people that got their shit and broke linkshell. Rise was an example, vang got his shit and said GTFO. I agree Jirard has told me alot of good things about perse, about how leaders pass down ABJs in order to give to the newer members.

Your linkshell does not "Force" members to join dynamis, however what do you think about the 2-3 linkshells that require their members to do dynamis with their end game linkshell? do you think thats right? For example, like stated above, fury does not require, nor offer incentive other than AF2, its members to join Furydynamis. Neither does Perse, even though you offer incentive. Do you find it fair that other linkshells force upon their members to do ALL end game with their linkshell?

 

[Jereme]

Vang wasn't the leader of Rise Hmk was. I know Hmk is very selfless. The problem was Hmk couldn't dedicate enough time to lead his shell the way he wanted. He got a lot of shit for it and broke the shell.

 

[Zoolander]

Edit: And just so this is clear, I'm in no way approving of giving your members an ultimatum that says either you are with us or you are with them. Thats giving no respect towards other dynamis shells, but more importantly, no respect towards your own members to let them make their own decisions. If you really think giving 6 points a week is the same as an ultimatum, then I honestly dont know what to tell you.

Guess my edit on that post was too slow

 

[jyakotsu]

Guess my edit on that post was too slow

LOL I R Trolling your post. j/k

I agree i do not approve of what Rone is doing AT ALL

 

[Zerayla]

Is that the only endgame shell out there?

I'm pretty sure there are no 2 endgame LSs that run on the exact same schedules, so I would have to disagree with this comment. Its not just as easy as saying "fine, I quit this endgame LS if i'm going to be penalized to remain with my current dynamis LS". Not everyone can just up and get into a new LS because usually most want you there for 80% of events, and if the schedule doesn't match your own, that's not going to happen.

Second thing, is that you then have to start from "0" again if you were in the process of trying to earn any gear and thats why I'm not going to harbor any ill feelings to the people that left, because again as I explained, a dynamis only LS isn't going to be able to offer everything that an endgame LS can. It seems the players are being put in a position where they have to make a decision and while it is their decision, either result would be bad. And the one responsible for putting them in that position? Answer's pretty obvious.

I would still like to know when Epitome gave notice to their members though, and told them they were going to be doing dynamis and wanted their members to join their runs because as I said, I was only given a day notice for some members that left.

(And TBH is a social/event LS Jya, so we didn't have any epitome members that had to leave, it was just for the dynamis LS SpiftasticAdventures)

 

[jyakotsu]

Vang wasn't the leader of Rise Hmk was. I know Hmk is very selfless. The problem was Hmk couldn't dedicate enough time to lead his shell the way he wanted. He got a lot of shit for it and broke the shell.

Yea i know Hmk was the leader, me and him speak on a regular basis... he is a great guy... However Vang got his shit and said GTFO... i wasnt really suprised at all though

 

[jyakotsu]

I'm pretty sure there are no 2 endgame LSs that run on the exact same schedules, so I would have to disagree with this comment. Its not just as easy as saying "fine, I quit this endgame LS if i'm going to be penalized to remain with my current dynamis LS". Not everyone can just up and get into a new LS because usually most want you there for 80% of events, and if the schedule doesn't match your own, that's not going to happen.

Second thing, is that you then have to start from "0" again if you were in the process of trying to earn any gear and thats why I'm not going to harbor any ill feelings to the people that left, because again as I explained, a dynamis only LS isn't going to be able to offer everything that an endgame LS can. It seems the players are being put in a position where they have to make a decision and while it is their decision, either result would be bad. And the one responsible for putting them in that position? Answer's pretty obvious.

I would still like to know when Epitome gave notice to their members though, and told them they were going to be doing dynamis and wanted their members to join their runs because as I said, I was only given a day notice for some members that left.

(And TBH is a social/event LS Jya, so we didn't have any epitome members that had to leave, it was just for the dynamis LS SpiftasticAdventures)

Zer from what i was told, epitome gave their members >1 week notice... Which is no real notice at all... They said We are doing Dynamis as of this weeks schedule. Thats what i was told... Could be a lie dunno

 

[Rappa]

Just out of idle curiousity (and I'm asking a serious tangential question here), what is the point of a points system where members are able to easily obtain over 50 points a week? If people can do that, that means you pretty much have to come to everything or you're getting blown out of the water. Like Jereme said, if 15 points is what "lower people" make, when will these people ever get anything when they are getting 3x fewer points than the "average" member. Only seeing a few pimped out Pers members is starting to make a lot more sense now.... "I bid 329874234 points on Ridill, muahahaha!"

 

[Anaeran]

I don't know, everything I've ever seen in end game personaly has been selfless leaders that put in twice as much time during and outside of events than everyone else and ask of nothing in return, and pass items to others all the time. Most of those people who steal from others are not end game LS leaders, although there are obviously a couple.

This is just pure ignorance here. You're either in some serious denial about the issue of leaders manipulating members to get their way (which has been going on since before you even started playing this game) or you felt like I was attacking your LS in particular, which I was not.

Even I had selfish motives when I led CK. I wanted to make a name for myself in FFXI, one that could rival the one I made over in EQ1. I wanted to accomplish that by being among the top linkshells here while respecting other groups and helping my players in any way they needed. I wanted people to see CK and say "that guy treats his group well, and it pays off for them in a big way". Unfortunately for CK, I was unable to do some of the things in FF that I probably should have done to further our cause and we're no longer around, in part, because of those decisions at the time.

There are some leads who put team before self in big name shells, no doubt about that. They aren't the majority for sure though whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[Soujiro]

Real easy, force them to attend events or remove them from a HNM/sky/Sea linkshell. I wouldnt want to lose 5000 points from my HNM linkshell because i decided to stay with my dynamis shell.... Its not always fair dude. Think about it

I never said it was nice or fair. There is a world of difference between that and not having a choice. Yes they'd have a setback in their gear aquisition but that's a choice nonetheless. If that's their priority and it comes first over anything else then so be it. Own up to it, don't try to bs everyone and sound like a 6 year old kid crying "he made me do it." I'm not going to give them a hug and warm milk and cookies over it.

 

[Jereme]

Just out of idle curiousity (and I'm asking a serious tangential question here), what is the point of a points system where members are able to easily obtain over 50 points a week? If people can do that, that means you pretty much have to come to everything or you're getting blown out of the water. Like Jereme said, if 15 points is what "lower people" make, when will these people ever get anything when they are getting 3x fewer points than the "average" member. Only seeing a few pimped out Pers members is starting to make a lot more sense now.... "I bid 329874234 points on Ridill, muahahaha!"

So the person who shows up to events 2 days out of the week earns gear over someone who shows up 5 days or morre? You don't think the people who put in the time earn the gear over the people who show up every once in a while?

 

[jyakotsu]

I never said it was nice or fair. There is a world of difference between that and not having a choice. Yes they'd have a setback in their gear aquisition but that's a choice nonetheless. If that's their priority and it comes first over anything else then so be it. Own up to it, don't try to bs everyone and sound like a 6 year old kid crying "he made me do it." I'm not going to give them a hug and warm milk and cookies over it.

It may be a choice, however you are not even putting thought into what you are posting. Keeping a dynamis shell or losing 2-3+ years of hard work put into an HNM linkshell. Think about what you are saying here..... Irrational at best... making you look really bad souj.

 

[Artem]

I find it funny that if you lead linkshell and have good gear, you are assumed to have been given everything over everyone else.

In good shells, it doesn't matter who you are, you get gear you worked for and deserved. It has no dependence on if you are a leader or not. The reason you tend to see leaders have more gear than others because they have been in LS longer than others. Actually if you really take a look, it's usually a core of people that have the most gear, and it's usually the core that's been in LS the longest and/or started the shell. I don't find it greed at all for people who have been in ls longer and have done more for ls to have better gear than people that joined 2 month ago.

On the topic of dynamis, I don't think ultimatum is ever a good idea for dynamis. Than again, there is *nothing* wrong with giving points to ls members who attend the shell's dynamis. I mean hell it's just like another event, they DESERVE the points. Now if you let's say start taking away point from people who don't attend your particular dynamis, than yeah that's definitely a bad thing.

As far as I'm aware, Perse just gives points to members for attending, they don't punish those that don't attend. That's not an ultimatum, it's just the way they work. While yes points will add up, noone is really forcing you to be there. I see nothing wrong with that.

From personal perspective, you shouldn't leave your current dynamis that you have been going for a long time, for an extra 6points that you might win a piece of gear. Than again I do dynamis and endgame because of friends, not gear, so I don't find more points for gear worth breaking ties with an old dynamis shell.

 

[jyakotsu]

So the person who shows up to events 2 days out of the week earns gear over someone who shows up 5 days or morre? You don't think the people who put in the time earn the gear over the people who show up every once in a while?

reread jereme. He said if u get 32904023409 points u will always get the rid over someone like you