Fair play

RoM

Lumbering Zombie
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Somewhat of a continuation of another thread but moreover something i got to thinking about while participating in it.

We all know there's a ToS and a EULA but those don't really correlate with what is fair; moreso what is legal. What's your definition of fair play, quetz?

Obviously things like scamming, botting, haxxorz, etc are flat out cheating but how far do you go with your personal definitions?

I'm just kinda curious. What, in your opinions, designate fair play on FFXI?

That in mind please keep from naming names and getting in to pissing contests in this thread. I'm really not interested in a move to the FB on this one be it user related or otherwise.
 
Sorry for derail, but I give this thread 20 post tops before its moved to Flameboard. :wink:
 
That's rough, if nothing else just link it and take it there if you're going to?

I actually figured for at least some decent input.

Edit: What i mean to ask is what, in the game, what do you have moral and ethical responsibilities to? What keeps it pure for you?

It's not a quote and bicker kind of thing really i'm just curious as to what the personal positives for people are as compared to the negatives you hear about all the time.

Good news, so to speak. Personal interest stories, if you will.

And if you won't that's cool, figured there's no harm in asking.
 
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something I thought that would possibly would be cheating in only one way with .dats is changing the appearance of a coffer to something bright or extremely large giving advantage to the one person that changes his or hers being able to locate it quicker rather than the one who has to search in a dark place like GC or necropolis for a dark/grayish box.

parsing I think isnt cheating I think SE just doesnt want us to figure out the best things for the game and make us work harder and play longer to meet the same ends, on the flip side i can understand if I was in charge I would assume that they are hacking into my game even if its just recording fight data it's possible there is a way to make a hack for improving for it.

Even though I do know that parsing only shows battle info, the thought of something leaking out to players makes SE nervous/skeptical.

Same thing with windower I guess square should be smarter and realize that those who play on ps2 chances are have access to the internet or have a comp right next to them. It would really hurt the pc players because it takes up bandwith to do searches or look up info while ps2 players can merely afk from their controllers and look online. The hurt is only marginally greater for pc players but SE puts every marginal thing on a greater level
 
IDK, but the Golden Rule always worked for me. If you wouldnt want it done to you, dont do it to others.

Then again when it comes to getting a merit camp, all that ends up going out the window lol.
 
Rorschach said:
IDK, but the Golden Rule always worked for me. If you wouldnt want it done to you, dont do it to others.

Then again when it comes to getting a merit camp, all that ends up going out the window lol.

lol @ your sig roarshake, makes me laugh.
 
My definition of fair play is simple:

No third party ffxi tools whatsoever (including windower). If it wasn't built into the game--even if you think it should be--and you're using it, and I'm not, you do have an advantage over me. Even if it's only slight. You can pick a fight with me about it, I really don't care. But that's my view. And that's what was asked.

Quick question about windower distance plugin. I've been soloing a lot of goblin pets in newtown movolpolis lately and the goblins have really weird roaming patterns there. Anyone who's solo'd pets before knows that if the pet is even a fraction of a centimeter in front of the goblin, or if the goblin is looking your way when you pull, you will get aggro.

With the windower distance plugin, when you alternate between two different targets, even if they are the smallest distance away from each other, does the plugin reflect that? Does it go into the decimal of distances? Or only flat integers?
 
pakomen said:
My definition of fair play is simple:

No third party ffxi tools whatsoever (including windower). If it wasn't built into the game--even if you think it should be--and you're using it, and I'm not, you do have an advantage over me. Even if it's only slight. You can pick a fight with me about it, I really don't care. But that's my view. And that's what was asked.

Quick question about windower distance plugin. I've been soloing a lot of goblin pets in newtown movolpolis lately and the goblins have really weird roaming patterns there. Anyone who's solo'd pets before knows that if the pet is even a fraction of a centimeter in front of the goblin, or if the goblin is looking your way when you pull, you will get aggro.

With the windower distance plugin, when you alternate between two different targets, even if they are the smallest distance away from each other, does the plugin reflect that? Does it go into the decimal of distances? Or only flat integers?

Well I know there are decimals, but I am certain how much it would help you in that situation since you can only check the distance of the one thing you are targeting at the moment. On the other hand, I'm not a BST so I'm not entirely sure of the potential. It's only really usefull for RNG, COR, and BRD though, as most other spell casters can move well within range for their spells while still being a safe distance. Even then people's random movents kinda require you to be well within range anyways so while it has the potential to help, in common practice it rarely does. I would imagine the same could be said for BSTs since mob movement is often as unpredictable as players, so being able to just stand within the cusp of what you wanted would still have a good chance of prooving futile. It's a tool, but even the slightest bit of experience is more usefull.

I really wanted to be able to use it sinse so many BRDs and such praised it, but it didn't help me in the least. In fact I spent so much time trying to get things perfect while using it I was far less effective, so I just dropped it. My instincts prooved more reliable.

I guess I draw my line at things that let someone do things that would otherwise be impossible for anyone in game otherwise. That is a little general but what I mean it changing .dats to exploit something instead of just make something look cooler. A coffer that looks like a hydra is cool, but obviously it gives a gross advantage over others.

TParty is a nifty little feature, but the only advantage it truely provides is seeing someone's TP that refuses to report it so you can plan around it. It is a small means to help me reduce my suffering when PT'd with poor players and cuts down a little battle spam in a group full of TParty users. I could never deny that it is a little unfair, but at the same time, the same information is readily available should people actually be playing well. I also just really like seeing little numbers so its actually fun to watch "the race" when I am just playing support in a PT.

Parsers are just a diagnostic tool to me, I see no problem with them. I never really could figure out how to use them, but I loved hearing the numbers from other people just because it's really neet. Had I been able to actually get one working, (or could live with keeping al my filters turned off *YUK!*) I would have been all over that shit like a fat kid on candy.

Windower is cool. There is no way I would be playing so long without it. I need to leave my computer capable of quickly moving to work mode and Windower is the only way that's possible.
 
My definition of Fair Play is.... follow the TOS.

I probably have some stuff against the TOS that I do not know of. I recently installed Xfire to monitor how many hours I spend on FFXI a week.. but I guess that is against TOS. so by my own counts... I'm not playing fair ; ;

I do wish SE would come up with a windowed version. And .. can I also wish for an in game parser? People who actually use parsers are people who bother about their performance so I do think it should be encouraged rather than discouraged. As it is parsers are third party...... so.... ; ;
 
Well I'm for Windower, but that's mainly just because I browse the web when waiting a while in-game, and I sometimes look up things about FFXI like maps, guides, etc. Main thing SE has against Windower is that PC users who use Windower can easily manage their hax running in the background. With fullscreen, you have to have it all running in the background and if you need to make adjustments, you can't just alt+tab out.

So I think Windower is fair play only if you use it as, well, a window. Using it to access hacks for the game and plugins that give you an advantage over legit players is not fair game. And of course any other hack in the game I obviously don't think is fair play.
 
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meow. '-'

things that i see as ok:

* windower - speaks for itself.

* bloodpace (timer for SMN-- its dumb to spam menu or macro like you are trying to claim a mob trying to BP without a timer).

* tparty- doesnt matter cuz no one hardly SC's anymore =/ same effect as spamming party chat tells.

just my opinion.
 
Completely harmless as far as I'm concerned (it's all either purely cosmetic, or there's really no good reason why you can't do it in the first place):

- Windower, just in the bare-bones concept of "able to alt-tab and allow that expensive piece of machinery called a computer to do its usual stuff, like every other MMO lets you do"
- Some way of taking good quality pictures (good resolution, can include chatbox, can be done mid-cutscene), such as with Fraps or Windower
- IME
- BloodPace
- Equipment/music .dat changes/swaps (also Wardrobe)
- DrawDistance
- Non-status icon UI stuff

Slightly unfair but mostly only in that you can see and do and know the same stuff as other players, just more conveniently:

- Parsers
- TParty
- Status icon UI stuff
- Distance (people without this can't get exact *numbers*, but any BRD or COR, or puller, or ranged attacker worth their salt can eyeball appropriate distances just fine, and do it *faster* than checking Distance)
- Windower macros
- ways to make things stand out, such as .dat swaps (not to be confused with .dat swaps to make things untargetable for spam/claim purposes) and Windower ambient lighting

Personally, I don't have a problem with anyone using any of the above, even stuff from the second category. There are things *far* more worth making a big deal out of, such as flee hacks, pos hacks, duping, claim botting, etc.
 
It's nice to see a topic go at least a couple pages on this topic without degenerating into a nasty puddle of flaming goo. Much obliged. :)
 
What would SE do if I where to plug in another monitor to my graphcard and
have FFXI run in full mode on one of the monitors, and use the other one
for internet browsing or w/e? That would be the exact same thing as what
a windower is doing. What would the PS/XBOX-users think about that?
 
Rorion said:
What would SE do if I where to plug in another monitor to my graphcard and
have FFXI run in full mode on one of the monitors, and use the other one
for internet browsing or w/e? That would be the exact same thing as what
a windower is doing. What would the PS/XBOX-users think about that?

I covered this in another thread.

Users who play on a TV most likely have PIP (Picture In Picture) available to them. Giving them yet another distinct advantage over strictly PC users, with an Svid card and cable BAM, windower. I'd imagine if you ran the setup you're proposing someone could call it cheating but by the definition of the ToS it wouldn't be because it's simply something they didn't take in to account.
 
Well, i'm an xbox user and i'm kind of jealous cause i'm an info freak. I'd like to have some of those options... Parser and Tparty would be the ones I'd like to have... Knowing the TP of the DD's that are SC'ing would be nice for timing Tier IV nukes since i get caught in the middle of a spell quite a bit when they start. Also I like to blow stuff up and to know how much dmg i've done over the course of a pt would just nice to know. Also how many mobs killed and exp gain of a pt.

My 2 cents
Shmed
 
shmedly said:
Well, i'm an xbox user and i'm kind of jealous cause i'm an info freak. I'd like to have some of those options... Parser and Tparty would be the ones I'd like to have... Knowing the TP of the DD's that are SC'ing would be nice for timing Tier IV nukes since i get caught in the middle of a spell quite a bit when they start. Also I like to blow stuff up and to know how much dmg i've done over the course of a pt would just nice to know. Also how many mobs killed and exp gain of a pt.

My 2 cents
Shmed

This sorta thing is what kinda gets me on the whole issue. God knows how many emails SE has recieved along these lines to make relatively small changes in their UI that would benefit all the gamers as opposed to having to resort to possibly being banned for using something that should/could have come with the game stock to make it a more enjoyable play experience.

I'm going to make a comment about WoW and in no way is it a bash to FFXI:

I really really really like how WoW is all but open source gaming. The addon system is where it's at and the fact that blizz releases the tools to make said addons is beyond awesome. I also enjoy the fact that for several updates now they've been adding content to match the User UIs that have been created in instances where they've seen it not only to be very functional but makes the game more enjoyable for players of all skill levels.

I think it'd be pretty cool if SE would just reach out a little to the users on this one and actually make some UI improvements for just a minute on their update cycle.
 
In my opinion everyone cheats at this game, myself included.

There are different levels of cheating though. Like when you go on trial for murder, it's not just murder. it's a specific kind that defines your intentions more clearly.

All of the following, in my opinion is cheating, but in the order of minor to serious offenses.

Using The Brady Guide. (can disadvantaging yourself be considered cheating?)
Asking someone how to do a quest without figuring it out yourself.
Looking up info about the game on sites like Somepage, or qcdn.
Using a Parser.
Power leveling.
Using tools like TParty, Draw Distance and Blood Pact timer for windower.
Using extended Macro lines for windower.
Buying Gil
Warp Hax, speed hax
Claim Hax
Crazy shit like "I can't die" Hax.

You'll notice I left using windower off the list. I believe you can use windower and still give yourself no further advantage. I think SE is completely wrong about it and in my mind it does not qualify as cheating.

For the most part, everyone agree's war/flee/claim tools are cheating. That is not in question. Some people believe buying gil is not cheating just a time saver and the division officially begins here. There is still a solid majority that believes this is cheating.

Then we have the windower plug-ins. These help you perform better by granting information you shouldn't have. There are some people that are adamant that these are cheating, but they are generally accepted among the better part of the community.

Even the ones that reject windower would never have the slightest word against fan sites filled with volumes of info about every quest, npc or item you would ever encounter in FFXI. Noone considers this cheating because everyone does it, and it's not against EULA. It matters not, even though I use the sites myself, I still consider it cheating because it's info not readily available to all players. Like someone that plays on PS2 and has a broken computer. They are automaticlly at a disadvantage because they can't see this info and they have to either beg for help, or figure it out alone.

We all cheat. The question is how much.

I use fan sites and windower with no plug-ins and no extra macro lines. I have been known to power level from time to time.

That's all my skeletons.
 
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