Fourth Division Mace

pchan said:
You didn't understand my point ... It's not that it's not useful, it's that the improvement is extremly weak. You are speaking of raise ... on R1 you will save ~37 mp every 7% of raise. Do you even cast raise 100 times during one month. If you want a monk analogy this weapon is as usefull as as the added lightning dmg on Indra Katars.
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I don't get why all of a sudden people like you and others around this board have decided that a weak improvement is worse than no improvement at all. If there is an item that will benefit you, no matter how slight you may think it to be, it is still BENEFITTING you. Skaw points out 50 spells that the Mace would be better for than using an elemental staff and all you can say is "Not worth it because the improvement isn't good enough." Skaw put it best when he said Shut the fuck up.
 
Skaw said:
You're still looking at it from the perspective of it only kicking in if you cast a single specific spell a hundred times. You're an idiot, move on, please.
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Yes that's how conserve mp works
 
Lanien said:
I don't get why all of a sudden people like you and others around this board have decided that a weak improvement is worse than no improvement at all. If there is an item that will benefit you, no matter how slight you may think it to be, it is still BENEFITTING you. Skaw points out 50 spells that the Mace would be better for than using an elemental staff and all you can say is "Not worth it because the improvement isn't good enough." Skaw put it best when he said Shut the fuck up.
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The question wasn't if its worth having or not, due to the minor increase. The question was the following
Sounds cool you know with Magic Attack Bonus +4 and Conserve MP +4 but would you choose this over the elemental staffs? Is +4 Atk Bonus comparable to the +10% dmg that the staffs give? What do you guys think?
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That's asking if the Magic Attack Bonus +4 is comparable to the +10/15% that the Elemental Staves do, and whether or not we would chose this over them. To that, the answer is no. He doesn't ask about the other spells. That is what Pchan answered.

Yes, it does conserve MP on the other spells, and that's not directly what he asked. Now, if you want to talk about how much MP it saves...

4% activation rate, ranging from 8-15/16, averaging 11.5.
11.5/16 = 0.7
4% activation rate, meaning on average 2,8 MP spent every 100 MP. That is including ALL spells, not any spell in particular. With an MP pool of 1000 at 75, you'll save 28 MP every entire MP pool, assuming you don't cast any spells that require elemental staves. So yes, the benefit is almost negligible.
 
pchan said:
Yes that's how conserve mp works
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No, it doesn't. Thats not how any percentage chance works. It's a 7% chance per cast. Not 7% of a hundred casts. It has a chance to kick in every single spell you use. And if you're subbing Black Mage, in the case of White Mage, You've boosted Conserve MP to a 1/3 chance of working with Seveneyes. Unless you just happen to have it happen, it will not affect 7% of 100 spells cast.
 
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I like how you edited out all insults you were throwing out. Afraid of getting banned?
 
Uzor said:
I like how you edited out all insults you were throwing out. Afraid of getting banned?
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Fuck no, I didn't edit anything out, I added/reworded. Thats the only thing my edits do, like this edit here. Ask a mod, I'm sure they can look up edit history.

Yes, I'm afraid to get banned, I mean, riddled with so much fear that I went and called a mod out for being shitty yesterday. So scared to be banned.

protip, that was sarcasm.

You on the otherhand, are obviously not afraid to look stupid.
 
Not at all. Especially not in this situation when we both know I'm right.
 
No, I mean we as in you and me. Instead of throwing witty insults, why don't you do something useful, like defend your opinion.
 
Uzor said:
No, I mean we as in you and me. Instead of throwing witty insults, why don't you do something useful, like defend your opinion.
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What's there to defend? Only idiots think an increase, no matter how small, isn't worth going for. Especially considering Pchan listed a Duelist's Chapeau +1. What the fuck, talk about minor increases, any relic +1 is one of the worst cases in that regards.


How about you dumbasses quit talking as if RDM is the only job that can use this item, and realize any mp saved is less mp required to get back resting for jobs that don't have Convert? Or better yet, any MP saved, along with refresh, provides a longer stretch of casting without having to rest?
 
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I already mentioned WHM, RDM and BLM. I'm sure you also saw me mention that the only job that would benefit from it is WHM. SCH would only use it on weather spells, and they cost like 24 MP each I think? with like a 3 min recast?


Besides, I'm not sure if you know, as you mentioned "pacts", but Conserve MP doesn't kick in on blood pacts.
 
Skaw said:
No, it doesn't. Thats not how any percentage chance works. It's a 7% chance per cast. Not 7% of a hundred casts. It has a chance to kick in every single spell you use. And if you're subbing Black Mage, in the case of White Mage, You've boosted Conserve MP to a 1/3 chance of working with Seveneyes. Unless you just happen to have it happen, it will not affect 7% of 100 spells cast.
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You need some math.
 
Skaw said:
Proof? No where I've read has stated this.
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BLM would actually be a useful sub for SMN's if this were the case. Especially where the strategy is to use Astral Flow.
 
Uzor said:
BLM would actually be a useful sub for SMN's if this were the case. Especially where the strategy is to use Astral Flow.
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Except Astral Flow doesn't drain a set amount of MP, but rather requires a minimum amount. You can't fraction out infinity.
 
Yes, I know. The thing is, Blood Pacts are abilities, not spells. For one, the description of it is
Occasionally reduces spells' MP cost.
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Although I guess you could argue that March states it increases Attack Speed with no mention of reduces cast timers. Anyway, its been tested before, just don't know where. Were hellova long time ago.

Besides, Skaw. 7% per spell means, on average, that it activates 7% of the time on 100 casts. That is, 7 times out of 100. No matter what spell you cast, it will activate 7% of the time. If you cast Raise 100 times, it will activate, on average, 7 times. However, your example of "not only activating on the same spell 100 times" is flawed, as you only count high-MP cost spells, instead of all spells cast under Conserve MP+7. It is better to count 100MP total, as it gives better results.

Additionally, you can't use the conserve MP job trait as an argument when you contemplate whether this is useful or not, as Conserve MP +7 will give the exact same results, whether or not you have BLM sub or not. It won't suddenly give better results just because you have BLM sub. It will still reduce MP by the same amount.
 
Uzor said:
Besides, Skaw. 7% per spell means, on average, that it activates 7% of the time on 100 casts. That is, 7 times out of 100. No matter what spell you cast, it will activate 7% of the time. If you cast Raise 100 times, it will activate, on average, 7 times. However, your example of "not only activating on the same spell 100 times" is flawed, as you only count high-MP cost spells, instead of all spells cast under Conserve MP+7. It is better to count 100MP total, as it gives better results.
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Uh, 7% activation is still 7% activation, irregardless of MP required, how many times it works is the same. The only thing higher MP does is result in a cleaner display of how much MP you've actually retained.

Additionally, you can't use the conserve MP job trait as an argument when you contemplate whether this is useful or not, as Conserve MP +7 will give the exact same results, whether or not you have BLM sub or not. It won't suddenly give better results just because you have BLM sub. It will still reduce MP by the same amount.
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And I didn't even say that, retard.

I said it would kick in more, as in activation, which is correct. Surely you agree 32% > 25% > 7% chance of working?
 
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Skaw said:
And I didn't even say that, retard.

I said it would kick in more, as in activation, which is correct.
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But you're wrong. Conserve MP+7 will kick in the exact same amount of times with or without BLM sub. Conserve MP from BLM sub will kick in the same amount of times with or without BLM sub. They're independent of each other, as one can be used without the other.

However, the total amount of times they kick in will be higher, yes, but Conserve MP job trait and Seveneyes/Fourth Division Mace are separate, as one can be used without the other.
 
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even reading the crap you're saying?

Also, due to rounding, the less MP a spell requires, you technically save more mp overtime, as opposed to a spell that requires 100+, on certain fractions.
 
Yes. You used BLM sub as another reason why Seveneyes is good. However, that is not a reason, as Seveneyes and BLM sub are just as useful without one another. They're 100% independent of each other.

edit: for better understanding, the auto refresh from Noble's Tunic is independent from the Auto Refresh from SMN SJ. Noble's Tunic will give you just as much MP back, with or without SMN sub.
 
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