GA Only! kthxbai....

I never thought I'd say this...but Baj, I really hafto completely disagree with you. Yes, people can level certain sub jobs for versatility but then most sub jobs are only usable in one or two situations, making them pointless in getting if you aren't in those specific situations to begin with.

Before this update, you didn't see people screaming for WAR/DRGs and WAR/SAMs in a cannon setup just about ever...if you did it was very often a party of friends who would allow eachother to due so - it was otherwise almost unseen. Even at HNMs you would more likely than not be subbing THF if anything else, SAM only if it was an incredibly weak HNM in which case the person could've just subbed NIN anyhow. I can't think of ONE circumstance where before this patch where people consistently said "Yes, go WAR/SAM" or "Please come WAR/DRG" to any event except (huge maybe) crap like Gration or Kirin, in which if they were decked out would sub NIN anyhow, or otherwise be better off sitting at the side subbing THF and sleeping TP with an Oponecklace. Almost the only people who had /SAM or /DRG leveled was because they had one of those jobs leveled as a main or because they leveled it for screwing around purposes.

That being said, no, people who don't have those SJs leveled aren't inflexible nor stupid for not being prepared, because they were virtually useless as subs before the update. It's also sortof silly that you say that being "rode the NIN sj/Rampage bandwagon" because...well, what's happening now? "Sub SAM or gtfo". Exact same song, different tune. =\
 
this happens every time the next big bandwagon comes along. it's predcessor is treated like the worst idea since bards meleeing in an exp party by the bandwagoners.

like when nin's were expected to be decked out in evasion gear from head to toe. and those lvl 60 earrings stick out in my mind the most cause they were at or about a million pluss a pop. now it's all about haste gear for shadow recast. as provenly effective and a haste setup is why is the evasion now treated like taboo? if its such a bad idea now why was it so fiercly expected in the past? it wasnt a bad idea. if it was i doubt i ever would have been adopted as the standard of the time.

the cannon friendly areas of ToAU have dominated the exp scene from day one of the expantions releace. war/nin and mnk/nin have been on top ever since. now this update has altered the spectrum and now the bandwagoners are repeating the process. drop the old like a newborn dhamel and embrace the new like it's gossple(sp).

i say why be restrictive in the first place, STFU and use both. they both work like a charm. A) they have been proven by the player base. B) its fun to change things up as lone as it doesn't slow you down.
 
Zaltana said:
this happens every time the next big bandwagon comes along. it's predcessor is treated like the worst idea since bards meleeing in an exp party by the bandwagoners.

like when nin's were expected to be decked out in evasion gear from head to toe. and those lvl 60 earrings stick out in my mind the most cause they were at or about a million pluss a pop. now it's all about haste gear for shadow recast. as provenly effective and a haste setup is why is the evasion now treated like taboo? if its such a bad idea now why was it so fiercly expected in the past? it wasnt a bad idea. if it was i doubt i ever would have been adopted as the standard of the time.
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Actually, the reason for that is because evasion is almost pointless to stack on after 60. I've had +24 evasion skill, +30 evasion, +15 agility and couldn't evade a damn thing; the only thing that allowed me to maintain shadows was haste gear. Plus, by not gearing fully for evasion, ninjas were able to wear more damage dealing gear and hold hate better. It was a play style shift, but it was a massive improvement in the quality of play; similar to wearing hauby over osode now, but much more drastic.

Old theories are cast aside due to testing; people tested that haste was much more effective than evasion; just like testing showed that hauby is better than osode; monk and war are good damage dealers; and now great axe is schooling axe/axe. The old assumption is invalid now, SE changed the game and people have tested the results; trying to hold on to something that is obviously no longer true makes you a fool.

Mish, I am being a little harsh, but that's because so many warriors are complete shit. Most warriors don't put any effort into their job after they get rampage; they don't level any other weapons, they don't care about any other subs, they just afk and come back when they can rampage again. They don't even consider the obvious merits of other subs/weapons; which is stupid when their job is based on versatility. If they don't have GA leveled, go skill it up; it's been over a week, they know how powerful 2-handers are(unless they're living in a cave or an idiot); they should go put forth an iota of effort and skill it up. Hell, SE even announced this update a year ago; and while no one expected it to be as big as it is, they should have thought that 2-handers would have become much more viable weapon choices.
 
i'll give you the shadows thing. those goddamn birds in bibiki bay shreeded me with "damnation dive" if i didnt have shadows up. and the fact that the move can eat a whole ichi didnt help matters. i needed haste direly.

but this whole axe/axe vs Gaxe argument is by and far just dumb i feel. SE changes 2 hand weapons to do more dmg. thats excelent. finaly sam, drk and drg get their overdue time in the spotlite. but how does that suddenly make axe/axe obsolete. were all those chain 200's a figment of our imagination? were they all cleverly manipulated screenshots? no, they wernt cause both of us have done our parts to make those chains. you punching the shit out of the mobs with your monk. me keeping you DMG hungry psychos alive so you can keep doing it.

so you can now do the same thing with your samuri. thats wonderful. now you dont have to limit yourself to one job. but that in no way mans your cant reach those same chains with your monk still. axe/axe is still every bit as useful as it was before the patch. SE gave the player base more opptions its didnt make the prior style we had adopted useless. its the ones that constrict themselves that are the fools.
 
And if all you intended to do is EXP or merit as Warrior (more than likely for another job if this is your intention) what good would there be in having Great Axe available pre-update? None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Great Axe was strictly an end-game weapon up until very recently. Expecting someone to have it capped in a couple of days, especially when it takes several multiple hour long sessions of skilling up to cap, is just absurd and impractical; not everyone can live to your cheeto-eating standards.

Like I said before, any decent Warrior worth a damn would have been working on keeping Great Axe capped anyway, but there's so many if's, and's, and but's to this situation. I mean, for fuck's sake, all the Dark Knights saying "Well, we kept multiple weapons capped" capped their weapons in EXP, and most every single Dark Knight switches between Great Sword or Scythe in EXP depending on whichever one is capped. You rarely, if ever, saw a Warrior bust out a Great Axe post-50 (at the latest) because they'd just get kicked out of the party almost instantly. I know I got the level 70-75 stretch of skill under my belt from Dynamis, and that alone took over a month's worth of Dynamis runs.

I know people -now- who are using well underskilled (30-50 below cap) Great Axes in merit parties because they never got the chance to actually cap it, and because this update is so broken nobody even notices.
 
damnit my spelling gets even worse when im agitated.

"but that in no way means you cant reach those same chains with your monk still."
 
Antor said:
I mean, for fuck's sake, all the Dark Knights saying "Well, we kept multiple weapons capped" capped their weapons in EXP, and most every single Dark Knight switches between Great Sword or Scythe in EXP depending on whichever one is capped.
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Wait, we did? I wish it were that way. Until 60 you are correct. 60-66 was Guillo only, and 66-72 was SS only.

Once Spinning Slash came available I will be damned if I could get a pt w/o bringing GS.
 
maybe thats why people like exping with me. i dont put bullshit "rules" on my exp members. i may have been lucky with my parties cause im very picky about my members. and as a result my parties 99% or the time are always enjoyable. i've never had to play the "you have to use 'X' weapon or you're out" card ever. i find it disrespectful.

anyone that knows me knows i love to SC im my exp parties. but if the party members arent able to make a decent one i'm willing to let it slide. im not that much of a control freak.
 
etchdog2000 said:
Wait, we did? I wish it were that way. Until 60 you are correct. 60-66 was Guillo only, and 66-72 was SS only.

Once Spinning Slash came available I will be damned if I could get a pt w/o bringing GS.
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Yeah, I don't think my eyes deceive me. A lot of Dark Knights will even come to a party with a Great Sword in that range and switch to Scythe whenever. You can play the "I never did it" card, but I'm more than willing to put money on the fact that you used a Scythe in crappy parties and treated it as a skill up. I know you probably did just as well as I know that pre-update Willian and myself did it with Great Axe. It's also harder to level your weapon's skill up if you're further away from cap.

Re-gard-less, you kept your weapons capped up until level 60. You could not barely play Warrior pre-update without being expected to use Axe/Axe almost as early as level 30. Hell, I'll even go out to a further extent and say nearly anyone who leveled Warrior solely as a subjob probably doesn't even have Great Axe close to 100 skill. And I'm right.

Let's just assume you kept Great Axe capped until level 50 in EXP by some freak-luck miracle that would never have happened within the last two years.

Great Axe
Level 50: 153 skill
Level 75: 276 skill
Difference: 123 skill

For reference, you'll probably actually have your Great Axe capped for around level 30 (93 skill) or 42 (129 skill). Anyway, that's a minimum of 123 skill points you were expected to cap. That really is a short amount of skill for a one-handed weapon, but it is a two-handed weapon. But it takes a shitload of time and dedication to do, especially when you already have an end-game job that's probably going to be used more than Warrior (say Red Mage for example). Before there was no real reason to even have Great Axe skilled if you were in that position.

Let's look at Dark Knight. By your own admission you have both capped until at least level 60.

Great Sword
Level 60: 203 skill
Level 75: 276 skill
Difference: 66 skill

Scythe
Level 60: 203 skill
Level 66: 232 skill
Level 75: 276 skill
Difference: 73 skill (60 to 75)

Anyway, again, by your own admission, you should at least have Great Sword completely capped at 75 as you will be using it the most if not 100% of the time. At the most you need 73 points of skill to skillup on your own time. I won't even factor in the fact that it's a lot easier to skillup a weapon that is closer to the cap. A Warrior who has their Great Axe capped up until level 50 had nearly twice as much skilling up to do as a Dark Knight ever had to do on their own time. The reality is that most Warriors have Great Axe capped for about level 30, and expecting anyone to get at least 123 skill on a two-handed weapon in under a month is pretty fucking insane unless they really are basement dwellers.

You might be an acception, but I'm speaking towards a general "Dark Knight crowd." I think my last post was pretty obvious, and if you think me saying "Dark Knights" actually means every fucking Dark Knight did it then you really are dense.
 
you can say all you want but back in the day of the SC no, once 66 is dinged no DRK got to use scythe.
 
And let me add, I know personally that if I actually had an underskilled Great Axe now and actually still wanted to merit, I'd probably quit meritting all-together until I capped my Great Axe in Dynamis, skillups, or something else.

On that same token I do not hold people to the same criteria I hold myself. Boo-fucking-hoo if a Warrior doesn't have Great Axe capped right now. Axe/Axe doesn't just magically suck now, and I'm sure pretty much every Warrior right now is working on capping their Great Axes. Why are you even expecting people to stop in their tracks just to cap a weapon when they already have a viable choice ready? It's not like they're dual-wielding warp cudgels.

Anyone arguing that Warriors should have always had Great Axe capped obviously haven't even played the job or held themselves to some unusual expectations like I did myself (I kept my Great Axe capped until 70 and would not party until my Great Axe was capped). In a couple of months you might have a legitimate complaint, but for now just shut the hell up.
 
Sorry for posting a lot...

Just for an FYI, my frame of reference on EXPing as Warrior from 60-75 is over the range of about three years. I experienced your "back in the day parties" just as much as I've experienced the ToAU parties. I missed out on people meriting in non-Bibiki Bay CoP areas, though.
 
Forgot to add, as I been taking both WAR and PLD up through the 60s I can honestly say, i havent seen a single DRK use GS.
 
god i hate the fact I cant edit. Not trying to argue, just trying to add, that your argument that drks "in general" seemed to me, from both a DRK perspective and "other" job perspective seemed to be inaccurate. I could be wrong, just trying to give some input
 
etchdog2000 said:
Forgot to add, as I been taking both WAR and PLD up through the 60s I can honestly say, i havent seen a single DRK use GS.
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i wouldn't complain about that, you want a drk in your party using crescent moon or sicklemoon over guillotine before 66?
 
Skaw said:
1) Sea isn't hard to get.
2) You could probably ask a well established Jailer shell if you can have a Fort. Axe.

I was hooked up with a Temp. through #2, since the shell that helped me didn't have anyone left to lot on it.
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never said it was, and both fort axe and temp axe are lost because no one needs but that does not mean that everyone has one. I believe the census that camp out said more then half the population has not completed cop. So for that half of the people my guess cop little hard to do.
 
hellstorm said:
never said it was, and both fort axe and temp axe are lost because no one needs but that does not mean that everyone has one. I believe the census that camp out said more then half the population has not completed cop. So for that half of the people my guess cop little hard to do.
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Or the real and actual logical explanation. Those people are mostly too lazy to do it.
 
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