Gimp mages vs. melees

[Uzor]

The problem with mages, and what I hate about them, is that they can leech in end-game shells. They're considered needed jobs, and can thus suck horribly, and still get rewards for it because of the simple fact they're needed.

Its like, most BLMes just do like this:

1) Check monster elemental weakness
2) Check monster HP level
3) Gauge TP levels of melees
4) cast Thunder IV

WHMes just casying Cure V, and still get to stay, because they are NEEDED

RDMes just casting Refresh, because its NEEDED

Mages can slack a lot in end-game. They don't even have to be good. All they need to do, is LEECH of the linkshell. It sucks. I hate it. Melees, on the other hand, have to be really good just to get anywhere in end-game. They need the very best equipment just for a chance to be in the main alliance. And THF's are just abused for TH, meaning as soon as a THF gets TH3 or TH4, the others will be looked over.

BLMes, RDMes and WHMes can really slack off and suck, and they don't even need good gear to get in to a end-game shell. That's really unfair to the melees, don't you think?

Seriously, end-game shells need to do something about this. Tell your mages to fuck off if they need to suck. It hurts my eyes to see RDMes I know suck horribly with good end-game gear. Don't give them this untill they've proven they can play their job even decently. RDM isn't all about Refresh, WHM isn't all about Cure V. BLM isn't only about Thunder IV. If your BLM can't stun worth shit, tell him to go screw a goat. Tell all your sucky mages to go screw goats.

 

[Drystyn]

You forgot the shitty bards.

 

[matchuu]

Its not like how it used to be uzor.... back when i played rdm full time there were only a few end game ls to join... had to be on top of your game just to get admitted into the shell in the first place, and i remember prophecy calling me and other mages out when we fucked up and we got better... now lately leaders are scared just to ask there mages to do basic things. i literally had a rdm tell me that impossible for a rdm to refresh 6 ppl... Makes me wanna puke watching other rdms sometimes... what i hate the most is when i get asked to use my rdm instead of my nin or rng in a merit pt to cure amateur DDs and tanks..

another thing when lvling nin.... why does it seem that u have to ask and explain why you want haste..... simple rdm spell paterns.... refresh yourself haste your tank refresh your pld haste 1st DD refresh whm haste 2nd DD refresh blm, you have a few secs in between those spells to cast 1 or 2 enfeebles....

call me a hater but i think its lame to see ppl with there CoP rings and less than 2m in gear on there main job.... or to see ppl wearing all AF1 or AF2 in xp gods hnm ect just cause it looks cool ; ;

 

[delsus]

You forgot the shitty bards.

A gimp bard does not matter most of BRD gear will not make a big effect, HQ staffs & HQ instruments. They are needed as they can pull, main cure, buff, debuff. It is a hard job. First 70lvs is easy but when you need to keep a chain 100-300 up it is not.

 

[Tagrineth]

A gimp bard does not matter most of BRD gear will not make a big effect, HQ staffs & HQ instruments. They are needed as they can pull, main cure, buff, debuff. It is a hard job. First 70lvs is easy but when you need to keep a chain 100-300 up it is not.

Uzor isn't talking about gear; in fact, I don't think he mentioned gear once.

 

[Uzor]

Uzor isn't talking about gear; in fact, I don't think he mentioned gear once.

The only gear I really mentioned was the gear they get through joining the LS xD

 

[Lukas]

I agree with you Uzor. But, the only reason gimp mages are permitted in end-game shells, is because melee want their high-end gear and thus recruit "needed" jobs despite of their ability. The question shouldn't be "Why are there sub-par mages doing gods/HNMs?". It should be "Why do we recruit such mages?"

If a BLM is gimp, shame on them.
If you pearl this BLM because you just want to throw BLMs at kirin to get your Osode... shame on you.

Also I'd like to point out that there still are a lot of good, competent mages doing end-game. My shell Kursed, is full of them. I don't like this insinuation that somehow players who use mages are "less skilled" and more prone to gimpage, simply because we're a more sought after job. Do you mean to say that there are absolutely no gimped melee/ melee who leech in sky?

 

[Uzor]

Also I'd like to point out that there still are a lot of good, competent mages doing end-game. My shell Kursed, is full of them. I don't like this insinuation that somehow players who use mages are "less skilled" and more prone to gimpage, simply because we're a more sought after job. Do you mean to say that there are absolutely no gimped melee/ melee who leech in sky?

No, but what I mean to say is that there's more mages that have the "Who cares how I play, I still get a shell" attitude then the melees. And the melees are usually in more danger if they suck, since a melee is easily replacable, which is harder to do with a mage.

Edit: Its the same in exp parties. If the RDM suck, people are affraid to tell them they suck, because there's no other RDM lfg. So they just think "Oh well, as long as he refreshes me...". If a melee suck, on the other hand, they can kick him and invite almost anyone else.

 

[hellstorm]

The problem with mages, and what I hate about them, is that they can leech in end-game shells. They're considered needed jobs, and can thus suck horribly, and still get rewards for it because of the simple fact they're needed.

Its like, most BLMes just do like this:

1) Check monster elemental weakness
2) Check monster HP level
3) Gauge TP levels of melees
4) cast Thunder IV

WHMes just casying Cure V, and still get to stay, because they are NEEDED

RDMes just casting Refresh, because its NEEDED

Mages can slack a lot in end-game. They don't even have to be good. All they need to do, is LEECH of the linkshell. It sucks. I hate it. Melees, on the other hand, have to be really good just to get anywhere in end-game. They need the very best equipment just for a chance to be in the main alliance. And THF's are just abused for TH, meaning as soon as a THF gets TH3 or TH4, the others will be looked over.

BLMes, RDMes and WHMes can really slack off and suck, and they don't even need good gear to get in to a end-game shell. That's really unfair to the melees, don't you think?

Seriously, end-game shells need to do something about this. Tell your mages to fuck off if they need to suck. It hurts my eyes to see RDMes I know suck horribly with good end-game gear. Don't give them this untill they've proven they can play their job even decently. RDM isn't all about Refresh, WHM isn't all about Cure V. BLM isn't only about Thunder IV. If your BLM can't stun worth shit, tell him to go screw a goat. Tell all your sucky mages to go screw goats.

Well it easy to replace a melee. It not so easy to replace a whm or rdm or smn for that matter. For these reasons people put up with more crap from them. there only 3 jobs that can cure(4 if you include blu) and what 11-12 melee jobs. Reason it sticks out more with A whm and rdm is there actions will directly effect the entire battle(because normally they are not changed) unlike a melee can easy be replace by anouther. Melee normaly stay in a alliance for more/less 2 min then kicked for anouther melee.(with few exceptions) If there was only 1 or 2 mnks or 1-2 pld the same situation whould apply. It more supply and demand problem, then a mage- melee problem. Though I agree with your your argument, and even though you might need them. They still doing no good to the link shell if they are only playing with half the deck.(not playing 100%)

 

[Uzor]

That's the thing Hellstorm, people are too affraid to tell mages that they suck, because of the whole "They're in low demand!", "We need a RDM!". And in return, we have a lot of bad mages with good end-game gear. Just because thye have good gear doesn't mean they can refresh, haste, cure etc. It sucks, seriously. End-game shells need to get stricter with their members, kick them if you have to untill they learn that they can't leech their way through. No one likes a leecher.

 

[Zyndara]

Honestly? The suckage is starting long before end-game shells (although it's definitely not just mage jobs). I've been in too many parties where a white mage doesn't want to use anything but cure V (Cure V for 340hp ftw!), and can't seem to keep on top of curing the simplest of status effects. Case in point: a lvl 60-something white mage who began an exp party by meleeing and was attempting to cure regularly with a dark staff. Or Red mages who want to nuke, refuse to spot-cure and don't bother to keep up a refresh cycle then act put-upon when asked for it. Or Black mages who are nuke happy until they lose mp then don't have it to burst and whine because the party isn't going to rest after every mob.

In order to keep these types of unskilled players from leeching end-game shells, people would have to stop accepting sub-standard ability in party members. The sad thing is, they won't do that because yes, mages are needed, and are usually in short supply. Parties have to be cured and hasted, and mobs need to be slept and debuffed. And let's be honest, we all need the exp. I am lucky enough to be in a shell that rocks and though mistakes happen like they do to everyone, everyone has something positive and vital to contribute to the success of the shell. Everyone has earned the gear they have. And it should be that way in all end-game shells. But I think shells occasionally get too big too fast and that sometimes they get lost in wanting to say "we have done this" rather than in being proud of each of the individual parts that got them there. I guess it depends on what they consider to be "success:" Is it getting gear to show off on your members as a trophy, regardless of their contributions? Or is that gear a badge of honor for someone who has truly earned it and done your shell proud?

 

[pakomen]

100% agree with you Uzor.

HEY blm's in my LS's who don't have em yet! GO GET YOUR MERITS!!!

And for that matter, get Sea!

And then get your obis!

And then get your relaxing earring! And all that cool healing mp gear from assault to get you off your ass faster. Yes it's worth it.

I'm sick of outdamaging you by hundreds of points when I don't even have a sorcerer's ring!

This goes for the Japanese blm's I party with as well. There's something wrong when my Burst II beats your Burst II by 500 points of damage. Gimp knows no ethnicity. If you're a gimp mage, stop it! Go farm! Level bst and get rich and buy your HQ staves. Get your merits! Whatever! Just knock off the blm gimpness!

 

[Blackmagik]

you need mages though, and therefore the slack comes, but owell, your a caster

 

[Bigboy]

Sometimes, just sometimes.... When you're really good, it just looks like you're lazy. I don't think it's a matter of skill really. Just filling a needed possition.

How seriously awsome do I have to be to refresh a pack of BLMs? Perhaps its just the task thats menial and not the mage? The same can be said for WHM's. It really is a life of cure 3/5's and some erase/bars/~na's. Nothing special or flashy. Typically the end game scene isn't about amazing displays of skill, as much as avoiding the fuckup that requires said skills to correct.

Skill is great, and alot of people have it, it's just rarely shown in a compitent linkshell because things go so smoothly that no one really gets to shine.

Only thing I can agree with is people learning to time their stuns/flashes better, and not having 3 stuns go off all at once, wasting 2 of them. Simple stuff. People just need to be less panicky.

And if anyone knows of any kind of replacement for even a gimp SMN at an HNM camp, I'd like to hear it. Hate free damage is good, and you don't need to be very skilled to summon and bloodpact effectively. I don't even know how one would judge the skill of a SMN now that I think of it. I mean, they would have to be border line retarded for it to even stand out. Like summoning spirits and shit, and attacking slept or unaggro'd mobs.

 

[Uzor]

Sometimes, just sometimes.... When you're really good, it just looks like you're lazy. I don't think it's a matter of skill really. Just filling a needed possition.

How seriously awsome do I have to be to refresh a pack of BLMs? Perhaps its just the task thats menial and not the mage? The same can be said for WHM's. It really is a life of cure 3/5's and some erase/bars/~na's. Nothing special or flashy. Typically the end game scene isn't about amazing displays of skill, as much as avoiding the fuckup that requires said skills to correct.

Skill is great, and alot of people have it, it's just rarely shown in a compitent linkshell because things go so smoothly that no one really gets to shine.

Only thing I can agree with is people learning to time their stuns/flashes better, and not having 3 stuns go off all at once, wasting 2 of them. Simple stuff. People just need to be less panicky.

And if anyone knows of any kind of replacement for even a gimp SMN at an HNM camp, I'd like to hear it. Hate free damage is good, and you don't need to be very skilled to summon and bloodpact effectively. I don't even know how one would judge the skill of a SMN now that I think of it. I mean, they would have to be border line retarded for it to even stand out. Like summoning spirits and shit, and attacking slept or unaggro'd mobs.

If a WHM's skill of cure 3/5, na, erase, regen, bar is so easy, then why do so many suck at it?

end-game events is no difference. If you're not going to bother playing your job correctly, gtfo. Don't slack off. If everyone did their best instead of half-assed, everything will go smoother.

Refreshing 5 BLMes and yourself is not hard. Hell, refreshing yoruself, 5 mages, hasting them, and sleepga'ing isn't hard either. All spells have a recast time, just because next Refresh isn't ready for another 15 sec doesn't mean you can't do anything in-between.

SMN is rather easy, yes, which is the reason I didn't bring SMN up.

 

[K. Ishitar]

I've been in too many parties where a white mage doesn't want to use anything but cure V (Cure V for 340hp ftw!), and can't seem to keep on top of curing the simplest of status effects. Case in point: a lvl 60-something white mage who began an exp party by meleeing and was attempting to cure regularly with a dark staff. Or Red mages who want to nuke, refuse to spot-cure and don't bother to keep up a refresh cycle then act put-upon when asked for it. Or Black mages who are nuke happy until they lose mp then don't have it to burst and whine because the party isn't going to rest after every mob.

Sad but true=/ use CureIV and heal for 421 instead.

Something that bothers me greatly are black mages who over nuke and when its done they have like 50 mp left for the next mob. Then they ask for refresh when they already have it

I have met many great black mages you do them wrong to put the job to shame

 

[Uzor]

Sad but true=/ use CureIV and heal for 421 instead.

Something that bothers me greatly are black mages who over nuke and when its done they have like 50 mp left for the next mob. Then they ask for refresh when they already have it

I have met many great black mages you do them wrong to put the job to shame

Or use Cure III for 221 and Cure II for 100+. Cure IV generates too much hate.

 

[Halifirien]

Cure IV generates too much hate.

What the hell is Cure IV? Oh, right... the spell RDMs have to use. I keep forgetting I have that one.

I'm not sure you'll ever see a good solution to your problem, Uzor. Even if linkshells started kicking the lazy mages, there are so many other linkshells out there they could probably find another one in a few days and keep the suckage cycle going.

I was talking to Quieren this morning, and he mentioned being in Onzozo and seeing a bad White Mage in action because the tank kept dying to freakin' cats because casting Paralyna and Silena were too hard. I loved leveling in Onzozo because it was easy as hell; those cats only have two freakin' moves. I bet that WHM is 75 in a week.

 

[Uzor]

What the hell is Cure IV? Oh, right... the spell RDMs have to use. I keep forgetting I have that one.

I'm not sure you'll ever see a good solution to your problem, Uzor. Even if linkshells started kicking the lazy mages, there are so many other linkshells out there they could probably find another one in a few days and keep the suckage cycle going.

I was talking to Quieren this morning, and he mentioned being in Onzozo and seeing a bad White Mage in action because the tank kept dying to freakin' cats because casting Paralyna and Silena were too hard. I loved leveling in Onzozo because it was easy as hell; those cats only have two freakin' moves. I bet that WHM is 75 in a week.

Yeah... I loved Onzozo for more then one reason.

1) it was easy fast exp
2) they only had 2 moves
3) It kept me entertained.

 

[Damita]

I think what Uzor is pointing out at is the alarm rate of mages that can only do one aspect of their job. I'm fairly critical of RDMs, but a large majority of the newer 75s aren't very good... How hard is it to land some debuffs, (silence on BLMs), Dia II, and some occasional haste/heals? And if you're going to argue it doesn't help, just go away.

Alot of the old school folks are being less and less diplomatic. For "new" folks, have you been kicked from an xp party? If so, there's probably a reason.

Most new RDMs are simply Refresh bots and truth be told, I'd prefer they sub BRD so they supplement it with ballad and paeon. Because they sure as hell don't do anything else.