Eulore said:
i heard it was to make up for their lack of nub tanks named eulore...
i mean....
just a rumor...
jk bro 
h34r:
i heard it was to make up for their lack of nub tanks named eulore...
i mean....
just a rumor...
jk bro h34r:
I have given this idea some thought, and I think it sounds good on paper. However.
I am concerned by Anaeran's statement that there is a derth of talent out there, especially among up-and-comers. I have seen that there is talent, some of it diffused among starting endgame shells, some of it tucked away in social shells, some of it struggling to get into a decent endgame shell while in a "less than optimal endgame job," etc.
Obviously, the "November 2003" crowd did not spring, fully-1337, from the forehead of EQ or what have you. You all learned, grew, experimented, made mistakes by trial and error. I do not think that disrespecting new talent that might have been overlooked is a wise idea, as these will either be recruits in the future, or the people counter-camping you at Ulli.
The problem is, endgame shells, especially the older and more established ones (with the exception of Kaizen) seem to have an insatiable appetite for people. "Experienced, veteran players," as the CK recruitment posts always go, but also warm bodies who know at least the basics. This is due to high turnover. Shells that don't mind turning their sky efforts into a meat-grinding factory just recruit the warm bodies to replace whomever is leaving; CK seems to be trying to find a way to supplement talent with talent. But are they addressing the root causes of their brain drain, their retention issues?
Even elite shells lose some people due to people quitting the game, lack of time, real life commitments, etc. But a long-standing shell is built by having recruitment offset these natural losses while working to retain the talent you have, just like any corporation. Talent retention is fostered through a combination of proper compensation, employee development, peer mentoring, and some sort of guarantee about the future (since hopefully, we don't have to worry about 401ks in a game!). Admittedly, I have been out of CK for some time now, so the situation with these aspects might have changed, but when I left the linkshell, they were a major concern.
To sum up: While this sounds like a great recruiting tool, be sure you keep the birds you have in hand secure before you go diving into the bushes.
I am concerned by Anaeran's statement that there is a derth of talent out there, especially among up-and-comers. I have seen that there is talent, some of it diffused among starting endgame shells, some of it tucked away in social shells, some of it struggling to get into a decent endgame shell while in a "less than optimal endgame job," etc.
Obviously, the "November 2003" crowd did not spring, fully-1337, from the forehead of EQ or what have you. You all learned, grew, experimented, made mistakes by trial and error. I do not think that disrespecting new talent that might have been overlooked is a wise idea, as these will either be recruits in the future, or the people counter-camping you at Ulli.
The problem is, endgame shells, especially the older and more established ones (with the exception of Kaizen) seem to have an insatiable appetite for people. "Experienced, veteran players," as the CK recruitment posts always go, but also warm bodies who know at least the basics. This is due to high turnover. Shells that don't mind turning their sky efforts into a meat-grinding factory just recruit the warm bodies to replace whomever is leaving; CK seems to be trying to find a way to supplement talent with talent. But are they addressing the root causes of their brain drain, their retention issues?
Even elite shells lose some people due to people quitting the game, lack of time, real life commitments, etc. But a long-standing shell is built by having recruitment offset these natural losses while working to retain the talent you have, just like any corporation. Talent retention is fostered through a combination of proper compensation, employee development, peer mentoring, and some sort of guarantee about the future (since hopefully, we don't have to worry about 401ks in a game!). Admittedly, I have been out of CK for some time now, so the situation with these aspects might have changed, but when I left the linkshell, they were a major concern.
To sum up: While this sounds like a great recruiting tool, be sure you keep the birds you have in hand secure before you go diving into the bushes.
The concept certainly is an interesting one and like many new ideas, it has it's potential and some flaws. I'm not gonna repeat what everyone said but here are a few observations I made reading the posts.
1) What about the members CK have now? Maybe I am reading this wrong but from what I understand, CK will "train" and teach those that will apply to this program. That means not only teaching them basic end-game or HNMs tactics but also helping with quests, missions, ZM, etc. Now say you have 15 people applying, you need 8 people in the "major leage" CK and only 2 make the cut, that means you helped 13 people and spent a lot of time for nothing (with regards to your own personal goals). Now you gotta start over and probably over and over until you get the people you want. I don't know anyone in CK but are they prepared to redo the same thing all over again multiple time?
If however CK's LS is not to help with such things, so the recruit canlearn on their own, then how is this different from any other social LS? Yes it's a way for you to see who has skills and can get out of a jam, but why would people join this new LS rather then another social in the first place?
2) IF CK's members are'nt helping with ZM, others will. Meaning these potential recruit will befriend members of other shells. When the time come to go waste 12 hours of your day at Ullik, they might decide to join those friends that did help them get there inthe first place.
(AGAIN, this is just an observation, I am not saying CK will not help, I don't know that, I'm just following point 1 and thinking out loud.)
3) If you can observe them, they can observe you. I mean they will also get a chance to judge CK's rules, members and policies. Now I've never heard anything wrong about CK, that's not the point. I'm sure you are very confident in your LS. But a potential good recruit might witness unwanted drama or misinterprete a lot/gear handling situation and decide to walk out. Agreed, this is a good thing for both sides, but all I'm saying is your LS will be walking on thinner ice then others. Every LS has drama, that drama might scare away potential recruit before they even get a chance to build loyalty towards CK.
Damn it I had something else but lost it, phone just rang... Anyway one thing I want to add is I don't see why it's necessary to train someone for 2 months before they are ready to do end-game stuff. If you don't learn to not stay behind a Wyrm after one fight or how not to get aggroed by Faust after it destroyed you once, you won't learn after 2 months either. Plus 2 months of reading "Faust is out, careful." will still get you kill the first time you go there all "All right I'm finally in Sky... where's everyone... what? BAM! Oh, so that's Faust".
Finally, again, I don't know anyone in CK personally and I have no problem with the LS but what bugs me is this:
Altho your intentions are noble, you are'nt carrying the weight of Quetzy on your shoulders. I'm sure there is a lot of good players out there that have learned without CK's help.
So en resume, I hope your current members are prepared to spend a lot of time helping new 60-70 players that will apply. If not this is just another Social LS with a promise of one day joining a Sky LS if you pass the test or make the cut.
Like I said in the beginning, it's a good idea, but it has some flaws. One of them being human nature and looking out for oneself first and foremost.
1) What about the members CK have now? Maybe I am reading this wrong but from what I understand, CK will "train" and teach those that will apply to this program. That means not only teaching them basic end-game or HNMs tactics but also helping with quests, missions, ZM, etc. Now say you have 15 people applying, you need 8 people in the "major leage" CK and only 2 make the cut, that means you helped 13 people and spent a lot of time for nothing (with regards to your own personal goals). Now you gotta start over and probably over and over until you get the people you want. I don't know anyone in CK but are they prepared to redo the same thing all over again multiple time?
If however CK's LS is not to help with such things, so the recruit canlearn on their own, then how is this different from any other social LS? Yes it's a way for you to see who has skills and can get out of a jam, but why would people join this new LS rather then another social in the first place?
2) IF CK's members are'nt helping with ZM, others will. Meaning these potential recruit will befriend members of other shells. When the time come to go waste 12 hours of your day at Ullik, they might decide to join those friends that did help them get there inthe first place.
(AGAIN, this is just an observation, I am not saying CK will not help, I don't know that, I'm just following point 1 and thinking out loud.)
3) If you can observe them, they can observe you. I mean they will also get a chance to judge CK's rules, members and policies. Now I've never heard anything wrong about CK, that's not the point. I'm sure you are very confident in your LS. But a potential good recruit might witness unwanted drama or misinterprete a lot/gear handling situation and decide to walk out. Agreed, this is a good thing for both sides, but all I'm saying is your LS will be walking on thinner ice then others. Every LS has drama, that drama might scare away potential recruit before they even get a chance to build loyalty towards CK.
Damn it I had something else but lost it, phone just rang... Anyway one thing I want to add is I don't see why it's necessary to train someone for 2 months before they are ready to do end-game stuff. If you don't learn to not stay behind a Wyrm after one fight or how not to get aggroed by Faust after it destroyed you once, you won't learn after 2 months either. Plus 2 months of reading "Faust is out, careful." will still get you kill the first time you go there all "All right I'm finally in Sky... where's everyone... what? BAM! Oh, so that's Faust".
Finally, again, I don't know anyone in CK personally and I have no problem with the LS but what bugs me is this:
Anaeran said:
Altho your intentions are noble, you are'nt carrying the weight of Quetzy on your shoulders. I'm sure there is a lot of good players out there that have learned without CK's help.
So en resume, I hope your current members are prepared to spend a lot of time helping new 60-70 players that will apply. If not this is just another Social LS with a promise of one day joining a Sky LS if you pass the test or make the cut.
Like I said in the beginning, it's a good idea, but it has some flaws. One of them being human nature and looking out for oneself first and foremost.
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See this whole project stemmed from CK undergoing major changes. Rather than be content with mediocre play and some decent kills but nothing really spectacular, we decided to suck it up and make some tough decisions to improve the quality of our shell.
Having done that (letting weak players go, weeding out the bad from the good, adjusting scheduling, appointing capable officers, etc) we're ready to take on a new project in hopes that it not only continues to improve the quality of our shell, but more importantly addresses a major concern growing amongst end game groups.
Having done that (letting weak players go, weeding out the bad from the good, adjusting scheduling, appointing capable officers, etc) we're ready to take on a new project in hopes that it not only continues to improve the quality of our shell, but more importantly addresses a major concern growing amongst end game groups.
I had a pretty extended taste of the gods part of endgame (1 year). I think the balance of what I got/what I gave was okay, but in the end someone living in EU timezone will burn out eventually if in an active evening NA god ls. That was pretty much the thing which stopped me doing gods. Met loads of great players and occassionally help em out from time to time. It's cool.
The thing you mention about multiple 75 jobs is interesting. People are more likely to stay active in an endgame ls if there is *some* prospect of benefit to them as an individual. If they have 3 jobs capable of participating endgame it..
1. Gives the ls more versatility
2. Gives the member 3 jobs to work on improving gear wise
3. Makes the natural active lifespan x 3 of that of a 1 job 75 person
4. With all of the above in place a progression to onward and upwards from gods is more likely.
Endgame ls must have transparent application of loot and gear distribution. An online updated list etc would make the member feel secure and valued and there would be less arguments about people lotting when/if they have to lott.
An area that the 60>75 prep ls could do is assault. There is plenty good gear to be had in assault and also good gil. (Farming Lebros Cavern is an example)
KS runs, O Hat runs, Rosty, Sky access, Sea access could all be incorporated.
For the time being I'm trying to get a trio of BLM, RDM and WAR endgame rdy, then maybe get a EU friendly timeslot for some fun.
..
generally I think the idea is good
The thing you mention about multiple 75 jobs is interesting. People are more likely to stay active in an endgame ls if there is *some* prospect of benefit to them as an individual. If they have 3 jobs capable of participating endgame it..
1. Gives the ls more versatility
2. Gives the member 3 jobs to work on improving gear wise
3. Makes the natural active lifespan x 3 of that of a 1 job 75 person
4. With all of the above in place a progression to onward and upwards from gods is more likely.
Endgame ls must have transparent application of loot and gear distribution. An online updated list etc would make the member feel secure and valued and there would be less arguments about people lotting when/if they have to lott.
An area that the 60>75 prep ls could do is assault. There is plenty good gear to be had in assault and also good gil. (Farming Lebros Cavern is an example)
KS runs, O Hat runs, Rosty, Sky access, Sea access could all be incorporated.
For the time being I'm trying to get a trio of BLM, RDM and WAR endgame rdy, then maybe get a EU friendly timeslot for some fun.
..
generally I think the idea is good
Anaeran said:
This implies that CK has not lost any quality people, which you and I both know is not true. Not all of CK's retention issues have been a voluntary purging/harcoreification process. Some of it has been legitimate losses due to legitimate problems. Have these problems been addressed, as part of the "hardcoreification"?
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I'm not in any way saying that my guys aren't capable. I'm also not saying every player hitting end game is bad. Are there some who are? Absolutely. I'd even go so far as to say as there is a serious issue with poor play with players reaching end game now.
Is it their fault? Not entirely. Are we the only ones who can help them? No, but the response from many other experienced parties has negatively influenced the situation up to this point rather than remedy it. All I'm saying is we're willing to help as best we can.
I'm not looking for any sort of praise nor am I seeking approval from the masses. I'm looking to make my shell succeed while helping as many people as I can in the process. People can agree or disagree, but the results should prove beneficial to the entire server if we do succeed, regardless of whether or not people think we're noble or selfish.
The players who pass through this new shell are in no way shape of form property of CK. That is important to note. I don't expect everyone to want to join CK. Am i hoping some connections are made there? Absolutely. Is it required or even expected that they play for us? Not at all. If they learn what they set out to learn and gain ability they didn't know they could have and they decide CK isn't the way they want to go, i'm stoked to know that what we did for them opened doors to a better gaming experience.
We have already brought in non-CK people to help make this work, and we're open to any other veterans who want to help spread their influence and knowledge amongst the youngsters. Does this mean we intend to baby them? Not a chance. Will they have to work hard? Of course. But having experienced players available to at least be around from time to time will greatly influence the way they look at and play the game.
If you disagree, that's fine. I'm a strong believer in actions over words, so we'll see what good can come of this if it pans out.
Is it their fault? Not entirely. Are we the only ones who can help them? No, but the response from many other experienced parties has negatively influenced the situation up to this point rather than remedy it. All I'm saying is we're willing to help as best we can.
I'm not looking for any sort of praise nor am I seeking approval from the masses. I'm looking to make my shell succeed while helping as many people as I can in the process. People can agree or disagree, but the results should prove beneficial to the entire server if we do succeed, regardless of whether or not people think we're noble or selfish.
The players who pass through this new shell are in no way shape of form property of CK. That is important to note. I don't expect everyone to want to join CK. Am i hoping some connections are made there? Absolutely. Is it required or even expected that they play for us? Not at all. If they learn what they set out to learn and gain ability they didn't know they could have and they decide CK isn't the way they want to go, i'm stoked to know that what we did for them opened doors to a better gaming experience.
We have already brought in non-CK people to help make this work, and we're open to any other veterans who want to help spread their influence and knowledge amongst the youngsters. Does this mean we intend to baby them? Not a chance. Will they have to work hard? Of course. But having experienced players available to at least be around from time to time will greatly influence the way they look at and play the game.
If you disagree, that's fine. I'm a strong believer in actions over words, so we'll see what good can come of this if it pans out.
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Zoolander said:
How is having a player with only one 75 job a huge asset versus a player with multiple 75s? I'd think it would be the opposite or possibly neutral. The former offers only one job to the shell and everything you do has to vary around that person whereas the latter, can change to fit the situation. Now arguably, the former will need/want less gear, but that means if both are the same time of person and they are the type to leave once they obtain gear, then the former will leave earlier. The latter; however, will take longer to obtain gear and you can string someone along longer when they have more to obtain. In reality what you want is someone who is willing to stay indefinately and in that situation, the former is best (less gear needed obviously), but that isn't always the case, so you want to plan around worst case scenario.
I kind of like this idea. It seperates out some of the obvious weaknesses in players and forces them into some form of learning curve. You don't make the curve, you don't make the cut. What I like mainly is the learning part more than the profiling. Now something like this is great for teaching players basic strategies, common sense and other various MMO standards through missions, minor HNM fights and popped NMs. A lot of this is expected from players by the time they reach 75, but when we started playing, we weren't skilled like we are now and we were definately more accepting than we are now too. For example, a simple thing like sneaking and invising through agro areas is something people are commonly expected to do. Most forget oils and powders forcing mages to do it for them which can increase the chances of problems. Doing missions like the ZM in Temple of Ugg/Den of Rancor or various mission BCs, should teach them to do this well enough. Pop NM/minor HNMs will teach them to work as a team and what to expect as a group camping. These are a lot of the things most of us take for granted in the year+ we took leveling while the newer players are powerleveling jobs in a month or two to catch up to where we are now.
The profiling part, I am not so fond of. I don't honestly think you can say this person is the type to leave the shell once he/she obtains the gear they desire while that person will stay with us for a long time or at least you can't be entirely reliable on it, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue if we could. It's a good indicator, but then again, as long as you are giving someone what they want/need, they'll stay; once it's over, it's an entirely different discussion. Since the opportunity to move onto the CK shell is always there, you are giving them something they want and will work for. So you might mistake their desire to work for the shell with no rewards when there is a reward waiting for them plus they are earning points as well. I think the whole "they will leave once they get what they wanted" mentaility is something you can never determine until the very end.
I think this is a good opportunity and a good idea, but I am not sure how well you can implement it. I am all for it, but I must also negative input as well. I'd guess 60+ is the minimum for joining? Well 60-75 doesn't take long to get these days and for some can take less than a month, even as little as 2 weeks. The problem you are going to face is getting people to actually join when they can bypass your whole shell and just join an end game shell directly. Instead of wasting "pointless" time in a shell, they can get an exp party and do end game avoiding your shell entirely. The thing is this game isn't geared for low to mid-levels and all for end game which goes without saying. There isn't anything they can do then, that can't be done at 75.
This will also be very time consuming on your current CK members and you'll still end up with the same problems of people joining this new shell and leaving for other shells. Even worse, is the time spent by your current CK members drains what little life they have as well. People have a certain amount of tolerance and spending the time helping lower levels becomes straining on even the best of people. Something like this will basically wear out someone who may have been a good member of the shell. Think of it like this. The last time you parties with a group in qufim or dunes with new players, how long were you able to keep your sanity? Granted, I'd expect more from a level 60+ player and they are there because they are willing to learn, but for most players, constantly going out of your way to help new players is straining. Soemtimes you want to tell them they are stupid, soemtimes you want to throttle them and occasionaly there are times when you are amazed this person doesn't have a level 75 job.
I think it's a good idea and I wish you well with it, but I wouldn't count all your eggs before they're hatched.
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Lesson #1. Dealing with Bots.
Objective: Camp Orcking with the hopes of Receiving a Juggernaut.
Full alliance goes to Monastic Cavern to obtain the axe. On day 6 that you're there (12-18 hours spent in Cavern total) you see a flurry of vokes and flashes claiming the mob before you knew it popped.
Lesson learned: Be ready for frustration.
Objective: Camp Orcking with the hopes of Receiving a Juggernaut.
Full alliance goes to Monastic Cavern to obtain the axe. On day 6 that you're there (12-18 hours spent in Cavern total) you see a flurry of vokes and flashes claiming the mob before you knew it popped.
Lesson learned: Be ready for frustration.
CK has lost quality members over time. It happens to any linkshell. Indeed, when you left, we had a lot of losses. Once again, I have seen it over and over in the end-game shells I have been in, it's a normal process and it happens. However as you mentionned it, you have left CK a while ago, and the situation has changed. Our current members are here to stay. We have new goals and everyone in the LS is excited about it.
Now everyone knows end-game shell are facing a real recruiting problem at the moment. There are way too many shells right now for the numbers of end-game players. You simply have to look at the LS board on this forum to see that most shells are recruiting. Our solution to this lack of people applying to CK was this new LS. With this new shell, we are hoping to hit two birds with one stone. We hope not only to get more members in CK, but also to teach them about end-game. That way we not only get new members in CK once they reach 75, but we also know that they are competent as we have seen them go and played with them. Frankly I don't see in what way this is a bad thing.
That being said, this thread i believe is about the recruiting method we have just adopted, not about CK's past or the way we are working our main shell. If you have concerns about how we are running our shell presently or about how we're keeping our members or not, this is a completly separate subject.
Now everyone knows end-game shell are facing a real recruiting problem at the moment. There are way too many shells right now for the numbers of end-game players. You simply have to look at the LS board on this forum to see that most shells are recruiting. Our solution to this lack of people applying to CK was this new LS. With this new shell, we are hoping to hit two birds with one stone. We hope not only to get more members in CK, but also to teach them about end-game. That way we not only get new members in CK once they reach 75, but we also know that they are competent as we have seen them go and played with them. Frankly I don't see in what way this is a bad thing.
That being said, this thread i believe is about the recruiting method we have just adopted, not about CK's past or the way we are working our main shell. If you have concerns about how we are running our shell presently or about how we're keeping our members or not, this is a completly separate subject.
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It a good idea, though I agree with veresko post. Also I think anaeran has ulterior motive. (hint new blood take place old blood, so old blood go do bigger things) Which is nothing wrong with that biggest reason people leave shells is the completion of there goals and burn out. You can't expect a person stay in the shell forever if he has nothing else to do, like meeze thinks everyone should. Though this could work for shell like CK because they dont just bind there self to sky. Giving there members more to do and less reason to leave. (this is hard for most shell do because of time issues)
solitia mension retention, but what lead to the loss? If you think of all the events you do in this game which normally would take most time? Sky. In most cases people leave sky because with rl scadrules they just dont have time do sky,sea,limbus,dynamis,assult and still find time lvl in the week. Granted some shells spend more time in sky then others. The have pick and choice the shells that are in there time slots. lets say he can only play friday sat and sun and there currently in sky shell farming sat fighting sunday. They have all there armor from gods, they have had for months, and he just got sea.There a new shell starting up, but it runs same times as sky. Now he can either choice stay in sky help other and never complete his goals or join sea shell and get his. (insert items here) Granted if was a noble person he give shell notice and also make sure there is a person that can fill his slot when he left.
solitia mension retention, but what lead to the loss? If you think of all the events you do in this game which normally would take most time? Sky. In most cases people leave sky because with rl scadrules they just dont have time do sky,sea,limbus,dynamis,assult and still find time lvl in the week. Granted some shells spend more time in sky then others. The have pick and choice the shells that are in there time slots. lets say he can only play friday sat and sun and there currently in sky shell farming sat fighting sunday. They have all there armor from gods, they have had for months, and he just got sea.There a new shell starting up, but it runs same times as sky. Now he can either choice stay in sky help other and never complete his goals or join sea shell and get his. (insert items here) Granted if was a noble person he give shell notice and also make sure there is a person that can fill his slot when he left.
Blackchaoshero said:
It's not that we don't equip our members...it's that we have shitty luck on drops it seems. We've done like 10-12 Kirins and only had 1 pair of W. Legs drop, while other shells get 2 in 1 run. And my personal Nemesis, refuses to drop something a piddly as M. Head, which I have been next in line for for about 6-7 months now. *angry German kid impersonation*
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Lavi, Zoolander said that people with multiple jobs at 75 bring more to the LS than someone with only one. No clue how you turned it around.
meeze said:
I think it's a great idea. When I was in Sora there were always those people who would get their gear and gradually stop showing up. There were also those people who instead of showing up to the event would be exping. I wanted to kill those people. -.-
Every time we lost a member, we would have to get another fresh recruit and start the cycle all over again and thus we were stuck in sky forever because of these people. I wish it would have turned out different for Sora but then again it was probably for the best.
I need to change my sig. >.>
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Cloudxz said:
And how is this gonna make it different? You're alwyas going to have someone form the "minor league" LS reaching 70+ and wanting his Sky gear, so you'll always be in Sky no matter what.
And you can't tell your minor league LS that you stopped Sky for now and to stay put until there's an opening in CK, they're gonna go somewhere else, leaving all that invested effort in the dust behind them.
Veresko said:
Well the plan for Sora was to get everyone their sky gear and then move on to HNM's but that never happened since people got their gear and ditched us. We wanted to stop sky and do something new with the current people that we had.
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As does every LS and understandably. I was referring to CK's idea and how it won't solve the problem of moving out of Sky imo.
On another note, moving from SKy to HNM is a lot more difficult then people realize. It's 2 different thing. Sky you can have somewhat of a fixed schedule. HNM you need your LS to be available at all time when windows are up. The transition will ALWAYS make some members move away for lack of time to invest.
On another note, moving from SKy to HNM is a lot more difficult then people realize. It's 2 different thing. Sky you can have somewhat of a fixed schedule. HNM you need your LS to be available at all time when windows are up. The transition will ALWAYS make some members move away for lack of time to invest.
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CK is by no means "stuck" in sky. We've excelled in other arenas as well. Being in sky or not doesn't have anything to do with this project at all.
The point is to create better opportunities for upcoming players before they're thrust into end game with no clue as to what to expect. Ideally this would help prepare them to make the adjustments needed to become quality end game players. In the process maybe we get some good recruits. Maybe we don't. Its an experiment...anything could happen.
However due to severe lack of interest thus far, this may not even happen so all this debating may be for nothing.
The point is to create better opportunities for upcoming players before they're thrust into end game with no clue as to what to expect. Ideally this would help prepare them to make the adjustments needed to become quality end game players. In the process maybe we get some good recruits. Maybe we don't. Its an experiment...anything could happen.
However due to severe lack of interest thus far, this may not even happen so all this debating may be for nothing.