Government Shut Down

Wow so what the rest of the world has been experiencing is trickling into government jobs now too? Interesting. And I definitely do NOT think they should be collecting their full pay while the government is shut down. They should collect UC benefits like the rest of the world has to when they are laid off lol
 
This attacking of planned parenthood needs to stop -_- and we really need to get rid of so many politicians and the big business douche bags who bought them out. I foresee rioting if this goes on too long.

No, what needs to stop above that is the cancerous thought that budget cuts = more federal level money = better economy = more jobs. Sorry bros, the job market and health of the economy are entirely different beasts that are only microscopically related to the United States Government and it's level of debt*. Hell, a lot of the planned budget cuts are/were going to make unemployment even worse. And through the magic of unemployed people not spending their savings, the economy will be even worse. The only way to salvage the deficit is through taxation, but the vast majority doesn't want to hear that and believe reduced spending(but still spending!) is the way to go. Never mind that during the Gilded Age many of these people believe in, the top tax bracket was above 90%. But we can thank Ronald Reagan for burying any real chance of returning to that.

The next best thing to helping the deficit is closing the Taxation loopholes that cause corporations like GE and Bank of America to not only avoid paying taxes, but receive billions in refunds every year. If there was ever a true cause for the ol' Tea Party rallying call of MY TAX DOLLARS, this is it. Won't happen since every politician except with the slight possibility of Anthony Weiner(not going to get my hopes up, honestly) are slaves to lobbyists.

*Pre-March 11th Tsunami, Japan had 4 times(228% GDP) the public debt of the U.S. Gov't.(59%.) Half the unemployment rate of it's citizens(4.6%) compared to the U.S.(10~%) Hell, globally, the United States isn't even off that bad regarding debt. Pre-Uprising Libya had 3.3% GDP public debt, but you didn't see everyone in Libya living in Mansions and driving Bugattis(Using their cheap, untouched by Wall Street, oil.)
 
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Agreed. The funding of Planned Parenthood started with Richard Nixon and has been routinely approved by every president since -- including both Bushes and the Almighty Saint Reagan -- but that's not good enough for the Tea'tards running the GOP now. I miss the good ol' days when they kept their crazies in check.

You know what else started with Richard Nixon? War on Drugs -_-

And Skaw, what lobbyists is Bernie Sanders a slave to? O.o He seems to be fighting for the people too :P
 
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No matter what economic theory you ascribe to, no matter where you think we currently fall on the Laffer Curve, there are certain mathematical inevitabilities that you must learn to accept.

Foremost among these is that deficit spending cannot continue indefinitely. Eventually, you have to start paying off the debt, before just the interest becomes the entirety of your federal budget.

Last I checked, we were paying in the neighborhood of $170 billion dollars. In interest. Every year.

Bear in mind that the legislative branch just went to the mat over $10 billion in spending cuts, taking things so far as to nearly shut down the federal government. For around 4% of what we're paying on our debt currently, in a budget that will probably add that much more to our interest payments even with the ~$40 billion or so the Republicans are trying to axe off of it.

You can scream that budget cuts will make the economy worse all you like. You might even be right. You can say the same thing about raising taxes, and you might even be right. But eventually balancing the budget, for the long-term, is something we're going to have to do, and no matter when that happens to be, there are going to be people screaming about it.
 
But the democrats gave into like.. what.. 63 billion in cuts already? This isn't over money, it was over planned parenthood. IF there was real interest in dealing with the deficit we'd see cuts in military spending. There have been none. And military is what makes up actually the biggest contributer to the deficit. Yes, the social security/whatnot is bigger, but a portion of the taxes is mandated to go there and it's paid off every year by that. There are problems with it and medicaid and other programs, but NOTHING IS DONE TO THE MILITARY BUDGET!! Especially nothing significant.

And then the problems with the whole tax loop holes. I think it's something like 2/3rds of the country's corporations pay near 0% in taxes and a lot of them get money from the government in subsidies and whatnot. It used to be that 30% of the government's taxes came from corporations, currently it's like 5% or less.. and all of them continue to get subsidies -_- Hell, oil companies? They take oil out of the gulf and don't pay us royalties AT ALL. They take OUR oil and we don't get royalties for it? WTF!

Wish we could get real change, but our government is too bought and in control by the rich. The rich wanted their tax cuts, they got it. The rich wanted subsidies, they got it, the rich want it they get it basically.. hell, even one of the rich says there's class warfare going on :\ stupid media claiming the class warfare is non-sense the liberals are claiming. The demonization of "liberal" really bothers me too -_- but that's been happening since after WWI....

And anyone who wants to go "well the rich are the job creators" and shit.. well guess what? Corporations are sitting on 1.3 trillion (prolly more now) in cash.. doing nothing with it. They have had record profits. Jobs still aren't at a level they should be. Taxes can, believe it or not, spur jobs. There's a good level they should be at. In the past they have been too high, currently they are way too low :| bah.
 
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Trickle down economies don't work.
 
But the democrats gave into like.. what.. 63 billion in cuts already? This isn't over money, it was over planned parenthood. IF there was real interest in dealing with the deficit we'd see cuts in military spending. There have been none. And military is what makes up actually the biggest contributer to the deficit. Yes, the social security/whatnot is bigger, but a portion of the taxes is mandated to go there and it's paid off every year by that. There are problems with it and medicaid and other programs, but NOTHING IS DONE TO THE MILITARY BUDGET!! Especially nothing significant.

About half that, actually. $63 billion (which, incidentally, is utterly fucking negligible in the face of the ONE POINT SIX FIVE TRILLION dollar deficit that Obama wants) was what the Republicans were asking for. They settled for like $38 billion now, with another $10 billion in a more amorphous form. So woo fucking hoo, they managed to trim like 3% off of the deficit.

For this year.

That was totally worth nearly shutting down the government.

And, I might point out, that they did not defund Planned Parenthood, or the other sticking points that had the left screaming that this had nothing to do with budget cuts. I might also point out that when you have a program that one side considers absolutely essential to their party platform that it makes a great deal of sense to target that program, then "graciously" (or ungraciously, depending on how you want to spin it) allow it to persist in exchange for getting something else you want.

Politics is a cynical game, best played by cynical people.

Cynical, corrupt people.

As for the military budget? Well, I have mixed feelings on that one. In Raestopia... yes, there would be cuts. Very targeted cuts. Mostly I'd pull us out of our foreign misadventures as quickly as was feasible, and begin the process of drawing down the Army and National Guard.

Yes, that means that I would be largely leaving the Air Force, Navy, and Marines alone.

Why?

Because the Air Force and the Navy are our primary instruments for the rapid projection of force. They can't take or hold territory in particular (that's the Army's job), but the Marines can sub in for that as needed, and their primary role of establishing beachheads would be something I'd like to preserve.

The Army's job, as I mentioned, is to take and hold territory. That's a job that, frankly, we don't need to concern ourselves with right now. And it's a job that, in an emergency, we can train people to do inside of six months.

I cannot fathom a circumstance where we could not wrangle six months to face off against a threat dire enough for us to require a large ground force component.

So yeah, given my druthers, I'd cut the Army in half. Probably similar reductions to the Guard. Their operational budgets would shrink enormously, procurement would shrink proportionally, development would be pretty much the same, and that would be that.

And y'know what?

All told, enormous draconian cuts to the Army might save as much as $140 billion dollars.

Out of the aforementioned ONE POINT SIX FIVE TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT.

The scope of this problem eludes some people.

And then the problems with the whole tax loop holes. I think it's something like 2/3rds of the country's corporations pay near 0% in taxes and a lot of them get money from the government in subsidies and whatnot. It used to be that 30% of the government's taxes came from corporations, currently it's like 5% or less.. and all of them continue to get subsidies -_- Hell, oil companies? They take oil out of the gulf and don't pay us royalties AT ALL. They take OUR oil and we don't get royalties for it? WTF!

9%, last year, if I recall correctly. Which is lower than it ought to be, true. And certain taxes that were abolished for valid reasons should be reinstated for valid reasons. The oil windfall tax, for one.

As for trickle-down (or supply-side, to use a less pejorative term) economics...

There's a problem with simply saying they don't work.

Because they worked for Reagan, and therein lies the rub.

The economy is an enormously complicated system, and it's not a purely mathematical system at that. There are strong elements of psychology and sociology present, which is to be expected whenever people form an integral part of a system.

So Reagan, bless his Alzheimer's-ridden little head, enacts a series of tax cuts and tax code rationalizations, culminating in his 1986 tax act. During the 80's, we had a decade long period of economic growth. Keynesians, of course, point out that we were coming out of a recession and that the growth was simply an expression of the apparent cyclical nature of the economy. Supply-side economists say no, Reagan's reduction of the top tax brackets induced greater growth and investment, and ultimately increased tax revenues.

I might add that they did, in fact, ultimately increase tax revenues, which lent a great deal of weight to the idea that we were well past optimal on the Laffer Curve. Though changes to the AMT might also have something to do with that, oddly enough.

Reagan also spent the Soviets into oblivion, which means that the federal debt roughly tripled, even as the deficit shrank.

But regardless, you can pick a point in history and point to it, saying "Look! See! This historical example proves that (insert economic theory here) is accurate! It works!" And the problem there is that it's extremely difficult to tell if they're right, or wrong, because the system is, as I said, enormously complex, and almost impossible to test in a controlled setting.

Or, in short, as with most things, answers are rarely black and white.
 
Well... although for different reasons than most i agree that tax money should not fund planned parenthood but there are a lot of things we shouldn't fund.

Honestly we need to cut enough that the national debt stops increasing... then after that we need to cut a bit more and actually get it to go back down. To me... that means that any cut short of 1.3 trillion is... worthless.
 
Pfft, the Soviets were going to spend themselves into oblivion regardless of what Reagan did. All Reagan did was help screw our country's mindset to spend ridiculous amounts on the military that we don't need. Reagan was such a terrible person with his policies.. hell it's his fault there are so many "crazy homeless" too :|

And there are projects that need cutting. Currently there's a project that will cost the american people 300 billion dollars. This project is to replace some military vehicle (I think some version of the humvee, but not sure, my brother knows more about that). The thing is, the army found this vehicle is entirely unsuitable for their needs and doesn't meet ANY of the requirements. The military needs cuts, vast cuts.

But for the most part I do agree with you about your points :P
 
Well... although for different reasons than most i agree that tax money should not fund planned parenthood but there are a lot of things we shouldn't fund.

I'd rather any form of tax money go towards keeping women(or people in general) well so they can keep paying taxes, than have the very real and currently ongoing alternative of people either losing their jobs from being ill too often, or dying, from not knowing they had a treatable, or even preventable illness, thus losing a tax source.

But, well, I also don't live in a bubble only concerned about my own well being in a society of hundreds of millions whose very existence directly influences my day to day life whether I know it or not.

Also regarding DoD budget cuts, it'd be nice if people would quit throwing up the straw man argument of Troop Paychecks getting affected because of it. The DoD is not just combat pay, and the ignorance of that fact is unbelievably(in scope, not shock - when education budgets are frequently the first to go, it's not surprising) astounding.
 
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And there are projects that need cutting. Currently there's a project that will cost the american people 300 billion dollars. This project is to replace some military vehicle (I think some version of the humvee, but not sure, my brother knows more about that). The thing is, the army found this vehicle is entirely unsuitable for their needs and doesn't meet ANY of the requirements. The military needs cuts, vast cuts.

Hmmm...

Dollar-wise, the only program I can think of that fits the bill is the Joint Strike Fighter. Which is going to wind up being one of those programs that is too big to fail, even if it does wind up getting scaled back and the resulting fighter costs more than the expensive fighter it was supposed to be replacing.

Vehicle-wise, the Humvee replacement process is still in its infancy, and may not be completed (and will not run into the $300 billion dollar range, ever) for some time. You could replace every Humvee in the US inventory for around $3 billion.

Now, the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle for the Marines has cost THREE billion dollars so far (drop the hundred), and is likely to cost another twelve, so the Marines are being strongarmed into giving it up, whether they truly want to or not. And they do want it, since it's a fantastic weapons platform, but they can't really afford it.

It's conceivable he's thinking about the enormous boondoggle of the Future Combat System program, or whatever the fuck they're calling it these days, which was supposed to cover a half-dozen different platforms, have costs running into the $300 billion range, and is the latest iteration of the Army's attempt to conduct a service-wide replacement of damn near every vehicle in the ground combat role. Part of the problem is that the Army, thus far, has refused to, as the saying goes, fish or cut bait. It's a common problem in development; technology progresses fast enough that by the time you've got a system ready to test, it's already obsolete, or doesn't include some bit of functionality that someone higher up really wants it to have. Call it the "Duke Nukem Forever" syndrome.

Part of what you have to realize is that the DoD isn't any more immune to political pressure than anything else. If the Commander-in-Chief say that you will make a public statement saying that we no longer need program X, then a General/Admiral will be found who will make that statement. I've seen a couple where it's painfully obvious that the military officer in question finds the logic of the program cancellation to be, shall we say, rather spurious, and would give his left arm to have it continue, but he is being compelled to say otherwise. Iirc, the F-22 procurement termination was one of those events.
 
I think something pretty big is going to happen in the next few years with this country and our economy. I always said that is going to take some big catastrophe for the US to get itself back into shape. I can see the US dollar no longer being the world’s currency. Even if we taxed everyone in this country 100% we couldn’t pay back our debt. It will never be paid back. It’s an impossible number. You can cut all you want but we will still will not be able to pay back our debt. The funny thing about the US is that we are the only country in the world that is legally able to just print money, even if we don’t have the resource to back it up. To keep our government and states from going bankrupt, we just print more of it.

The rest of the world and our biggest creditors are catching on to this. The day the world switches its world currency away from the US dollar is the day we’re done. We take up more of the world’s resources than we produce. But hey, I guess we’re good at producing paper right? Take a look at Great Britain in the 1970’s and in the mid 90’s. There are already around 150 other local currencies being made in this country and being used. One of the larger is BerkShares being used in Massachusetts.

Not to sound like a naysayer but…

The government will try to save itself before its people.
 
I think something pretty big is going to happen in the next few years with this country and our economy. I always said that is going to take some big catastrophe for the US to get itself back into shape. I can see the US dollar no longer being the world’s currency. Even if we taxed everyone in this country 100% we couldn’t pay back our debt. It will never be paid back. It’s an impossible number. You can cut all you want but we will still will not be able to pay back our debt. The funny thing about the US is that we are the only country in the world that is legally able to just print money, even if we don’t have the resource to back it up. To keep our government and states from going bankrupt, we just print more of it.

Hate to break it to you, but that's just not true.

Except for the part about moving the world reserve currency away from the dollar.

A lot of countries have the power to just print money. We aren't really among them. Zimbabwe, if I recall correctly, serves as an example of a country that can, and has, and suffered the resulting hyperinflation.

Monetary policy in the United States is under the control of the Federal Reserve, and is primarily manipulated through the buying and selling of treasury securities. Buying them injects more money into the economy; selling conversely removes it. The Treasury only prints the money, the Fed controls it, and the Fed basically stands separate from the government, rather akin to the Supreme Court.

In terms of the magnitude of the debt, no, it is not insurmountable. Obama's plan, unpleasant though I find it personally, is to have the national debt level reach 100% of GDP by 2020.

Which is a disturbing number in total dollars, but answer me this: How many people do you know who have borrowed more money than they make in a year in order to buy a house?

The answer, by the way, is "most of the people who buy houses".

There are two fundamental reasons why I am against his plan (three if you count a general sense of disagreement on the economic necessity of it). First, it would have the effect of reducing global confidence in the strength of the dollar, subsequently reduce the use of the dollar as the world reserve currency, and weaken the total influence of the United States. Second, there are few things in this world more difficult to do than to shrink the government. Bureaucracies tend to go to great lengths to perpetuate themselves, and there are a great many other people who will cry foul if their pet programs get touched.

For example (and this will make me sound like a horrible human being), one of the planned Republican reductions in the budget was to decrease our contributions to fighting world malaria infection to 2008 levels. This, of course, provoked a vitriolic reaction from a variety of media columnists on the left, and while I can appreciate their position, and the blatant hypocrisy of the Republican budget cuts, the fact of the matter is that there's no way in hell that that amount should have gone up since 2008.

My point to Skaw earlier in this thread is that we have to start reducing spending sometime. No matter when it happens, there are going to be people saying "well, we need program X! It's essential! It's a fundamental human right!", no matter how frivolous or big-brothery program X happens to be. The bigger we let it get, the harder it is going to be in the long run.

As for local/alternative currencies, there have always been fringe groups pushing that particular idea. Most of them, unfortunately, are scams. The Liberty Dollar, for example, was one of the more widespread alternative currencies, and one of the more obvious scams to anyone who wasn't a Libertarian.

That's why it is up to us.

Yes, because we are the government. It's a representative democracy people; they work for us.

We picked them.

It's our fault.

They didn't just up and do this on their own. We hand-picked them to do this. We have chosen to allow cynical men to manipulate the system for the last... well, technically having cynical men manipulating the system has become rather the norm since Washington, but barring a few bright spots of having a reasonable percentage of the government honestly trying to do the right thing, let's just say it's been quite a while.

People ask me, from time to time, why I vote third party exclusively (or write-in when necessary). And the answer is simple: I want them to know that I vote, but that I don't vote for them.

The system is corrupt. I've said that here before, but I'm not sure I've ever really gone and spelled it out for people the way I'm about to.

The system is corrupt because people are gullible. If people actually gave a shit about their candidates, about finding out what they really plan to do, and making them stick to that plan, then all the money in the world wouldn't get some of these assholes elected. But people are gullible.

Gullible whores at that, because they're selling their votes to the guy who promises them the most.

Gullible stupid whores, because they don't give a shit where the money comes from, so long as they get what they were promised.

Once again.

It's our fault.
 
People are selfish by nature. The rich believe the deficit should be made up by cutting social and military programs, and other superfluous spending. The poor want taxes raised on the rich, loopholes closed, etc. Either side has no problem suggesting their solution because it does not affect them adversely (as far as they can see). Basically people want to continue taking a mile without giving an inch, and the real solution probably resides in the middle somewhere.

Then of course there is the problem of having a large group of elected idiots who can not balance their own checkbook without help, arguing over how to balance the nations finances...
 
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The irony, of course, is that there was a time when many people felt that a representative democracy was a way of keeping power out of the hands of shortsighted idiots.
 
I'm not going to add much to this discussion.. but I will say this, when it's our fault, as it is ours for our situation as well as yours for your present situation, but there is no real 'lesser evil', how can we as the decision makers make a difference when we're limited in our options?

I don't vote, and if I were to ever vote it would be for Green Peace which I know will never be voted into power, and much like Rae said, it would only be to show I DID vote and I didn't vote for 'them'.

Some feedback from last nights debate was that Jack L tells it the way it is, calling out Harper and others as crooks, but when I hear that all I can think is that this is HIS method to winning over the public... being blunt. In the back of my head I'm constantly looking at the 'show' they may be putting on. I trust none and for that cannot see myself ever really happy with our government.
 
With as fast a social media moves, I would think a public group like a "vote for the other guy" would be up and rollin'. Fastest way to get information out now is through the ol' Facebook <3
 
With as fast a social media moves, I would think a public group like a "vote for the other guy" would be up and rollin'. Fastest way to get information out now is through the ol' Facebook <3

That's very true, but FB pages/groups a lot of it times are pretty hollow. I'm sure there is a group similar to that already. What it comes down to is that we *need* to vote someone in.. and we're only left with limited party choices, none all to appealing. If a large majority were to opt out of voting just once, that may be enough to bring change. I'm a pessimist a lot of times, and this be one of them.

I'm more concerned with the 'our fault' position taken, sure it's the publics fault, but really what choice do you/we have in the matter?? Who really is 'the lesser evil'. Fucked if we do fucked if we don't.

And now I've taken part in this more than I planned.
 
That's very true, but FB pages/groups a lot of it times are pretty hollow. I'm sure there is a group similar to that already. What it comes down to is that we *need* to vote someone in.. and we're only left with limited party choices, none all to appealing. If a large majority were to opt out of voting just once, that may be enough to bring change. I'm a pessimist a lot of times, and this be one of them.

I'm more concerned with the 'our fault' position taken, sure it's the publics fault, but really what choice do you/we have in the matter?? Who really is 'the lesser evil'. Fucked if we do fucked if we don't.

And now I've taken part in this more than I planned.

And now I might drag you yet further in.

The fact of the matter is that, in the United States at least, you get damn near a majority of the people not voting to begin with. 2008 had one of the higher voter turnouts that I can remember since I started voting back in '94.

It was 63%.

That means that 37% of the people in the country simply didn't care who was going to represent them. That they gave tacit approval to whatever decisions would be made by the people who someone else elected.

What difference does it make? Well, if you're stuck with, as South Park put it, a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich... Well, in reality it's rarely that bad. There usually is a "lesser of two evils", and if you don't want to take the Raesvelg's Patented Route Of Protest Voting, then you can pick the candidate that aligns more closely with your own beliefs and vote for them. And it will matter.

But the fact of the matter is that that 37% of people who didn't vote is usually closer to 47%. And that enormous block of voters could put pretty much anybody they wanted to in office... but they just don't give a shit.

Which is kinda pathetic.
 
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