Hades Sainti Vs. Wagh Baghnakhs

[NandabaNaota]

PUP, I asked a PUP XD

Unless they have 2 THFs TAing them, or all h2h merits, I don't see PUP holding hate very long, but then again, back when I leveled it, howling fist sucked.

Now it's quite an asset.

 

[pchan]

I parsed myself with both weapon, soloing VT imps @ Helliva Island.

* I do 1000 melee hits (~45K damage so it takes a while) with each weapon.
* I solo with the whm puppet, so I pause parsing if he does DiaII.
* I pause parsing when receiving bio.
* I unequip/equip animator to lose TP in case of amnesia @ 100%

The goal is to estimate the bonus from +14 attack. Note that I used no food, and with full usukane imps checked low eva with both weapon.

rough accuracy ~ 78%
average melee hit with wagh = 43.1
average melee hit with hades= 42.0

2 accuracy difference on both weapons means one is at 78% the other at 79%. Here is the math :

damage from melee hits during 10 minutes

with wagh = (10*60*60/420)*0.78*43.1=2881
with hades = (10*60*60/411)*0.79*42.0=2906

Hades Sainti are better. Of course unless you cap accuracy or close to cap, which doesn't happen outside solo. And in solo/farming situation, the 7 eva and enmity are more than welcome.

 

[NandabaNaota]

I parsed myself with both weapon, soloing VT imps @ Helliva Island.

* I do 1000 melee hits (~45K damage so it takes a while) with each weapon.
* I solo with the whm puppet, so I pause parsing if he does DiaII.
* I pause parsing when receiving bio.
* I unequip/equip animator to lose TP in case of amnesia @ 100%

The goal is to estimate the bonus from +14 attack. Note that I used no food, and with full usukane imps checked low eva with both weapon.

rough accuracy ~ 78%
average melee hit with wagh = 43.1
average melee hit with hades= 42.0

2 accuracy difference on both weapons means one is at 78% the other at 79%. Here is the math :

damage from melee hits during 10 minutes

with wagh = (10*60*60/420)*0.78*43.1=2881
with hades = (10*60*60/411)*0.79*42.0=2906

Hades Sainti are better. Of course unless you cap accuracy or close to cap, which doesn't happen outside solo. And in solo/farming situation, the 7 eva and enmity are more than welcome.

Imps have low def as is, and not every PUP has full usukane to be handed out to them. And 2 damn ACC is not going to make a notable difference.

 

[kodi]

I don't think anyone would argue Hades Sainti are better.

Question will be are they worth the extra 790,000 gil you have to pay for them for that extra damage/enmity/eva.

Just depends on the player IMO. Personally, I like my Avengers because they look cool.

 

[NandabaNaota]

I don't think anyone would argue Hades Sainti are better.

Question will be are they worth the extra 790,000 gil you have to pay for them for that extra damage/enmity/eva.

Just depends on the player IMO. Personally, I like my Avengers because they look cool.

You should really replace Avengers for Waghs or Hades :x...

And the cost is not the issue, it's more of figuring the effectiveness of said weapons. Don't get me wrong, Hades are not bad, but we are dealing with C h2h and -normally- bad gear options. We need as much attack and acc as we can get.

 

[Torqameda]

Yea, I'd assume that with normally accessible gear, Wagh would parse better. Pchan did do the parse, but as Nao stated, not everyone has full Usukane gear. I suppose that the evasion would help soloing, but the extra attack from the Wagh would parse better with non-Uskuane. I don't know for sure, since I don't have PUP at that lvl yet, but I suppose we will find out.

 

[kodi]

You should really replace Avengers for Waghs or Hades :x...

And the cost is not the issue, it's more of figuring the effectiveness of said weapons. Don't get me wrong, Hades are not bad, but we are dealing with C h2h and -normally- bad gear options. We need as much attack and acc as we can get.

I have Waghs, and usually use them in most situations. Avengers do look cool though and that's important, at least to me.

 

[pchan]

Yea, I'd assume that with normally accessible gear, Wagh would parse better. Pchan did do the parse, but as Nao stated, not everyone has full Usukane gear. I suppose that the evasion would help soloing, but the extra attack from the Wagh would parse better with non-Uskuane. I don't know for sure, since I don't have PUP at that lvl yet, but I suppose we will find out.

The parse has nothing to do with full usukane. 14 attack adds 1 damage per hit on average. Also, last I checked, attack is all the better than the accuracy is capped. W/o usukane your accuracy will look like shit. I mean let's examine : turban, acc 10 body, haste3% legs, acc 6 legs, ??feet, you are losing 24 accuracy so your acc% is now ..66%... Basically wagh get more benefits from full usukane than Hades and even in this case Hades wins.

 

[Moink]

Usukane isn't the only equipment to provide decent accuracy for pup. If you wanted to concentrate on an Acc set for pup it would be mixed between the 4 sets pup can utilize for DD, but you might sacrifice attack or even haste... its all conditional i suppose. I'll make a comparison post on equipment later.

 

[NandabaNaota]

The parse has nothing to do with full usukane. 14 attack adds 1 damage per hit on average. Also, last I checked, attack is all the better than the accuracy is capped. W/o usukane your accuracy will look like shit. I mean let's examine : turban, acc 10 body, haste3% legs, acc 6 legs, ??feet, you are losing 24 accuracy so your acc% is now ..66%... Basically wagh get more benefits from full usukane than Hades and even in this case Hades wins.

You didn't even parse WS damage.

That is not a real parse.

 

[Bajaratt]

That is not a real parse.

This. Even discounting the lack of WS numbers, it's not valid. If he'd actually parsed the information, he'd have real accuracy for both weapons, not "well hades has more acc, so I'll add to it's hit percentage." With a 1,000 hit pool, if they both hit 78%, then they both have the same accuracy.

Plus, in any real merit party you'd be eatting food(sushi if you have any sense), further increasing the insignificance of the 2 accuracy difference, so Wagh would still be better.

For solo, the evasion might help, but for pure damage, Wagh would be better.

 

[pchan]

You didn't even parse WS damage.

That is not a real parse.

How about you show us the math beyong the 2 weapons, and their effect on WS ? Last i check less delay+ more accuracy= more WS = more damage.

This. Even discounting the lack of WS numbers, it's not valid. If he'd actually parsed the information, he'd have real accuracy for both weapons, not "well hades has more acc, so I'll add to it's hit percentage." With a 1,000 hit pool, if they both hit 78%, then they both have the same accuracy.

If you knew game mechanics you'd know +2 acc =1% hit rate. The fact that Hades Sainti has 2 more accuracy than wagh barghnaks doesn't need to be tested. It's a fact.

Plus, in any real merit party you'd be eatting food(sushi if you have any sense), further increasing the insignificance of the 2 accuracy difference, so Wagh would still be better.

Wether you eat sushi or not +2 accuracy does the same. I delibarately did imps because 80% accuracy is what you get with decent gear and sushi on mamooljas, on pup.

 

[NandabaNaota]

How about you show us the math beyong the 2 weapons, and their effect on WS ? Last i check less delay+ more accuracy= more WS = more damage.






If you knew game mechanics you'd know +2 acc =1% hit rate. The fact that Hades Sainti has 2 more accuracy than wagh barghnaks doesn't need to be tested. It's a fact.



Wether you eat sushi or not +2 accuracy does the same. I delibarately did imps because 80% accuracy is what you get with decent gear and sushi on mamooljas, on pup.

Jesus christ, Waghs have more TP gain, and 14 attack boosts your hits by a bit, believe it or not.

Also, More ATTACK= More WS DMG

14 ATT>2ACC

More TP gain, higher DMG per hit, and higher WSs>-9 delay and 2 acc.

 

[Bajaratt]

If you knew game mechanics you'd know +2 acc =1% hit rate.

I know game mechanics. But if you had any common sense or intelligence, you'd know it's an approximation, not a stone cold fact; otherwise it'd be possible to get 100% hit rate.

The fact that Hades Sainti has 2 more accuracy than wagh barghnaks doesn't need to be tested. It's a fact.

The fact that it has more accuracy was never in doubt, what was being discussed is: does that more accuracy make a difference? You've completely ignored the crux of what I said to argue something that hasn't been disputed and that you've either proven to be irrelevant or proved that your test is invalid.

Assuming you parsed correctly, you got 78% accuracy(which is your hit rate when parsing) with both weapons, therefore the 2 accuracy had no effect on the results, meaning the wagh baghs are better since they do more per-hit damage.

If you fucked up the parsing, then your results are completely irrelevant. You taking the accuracy/hit rate and adding to it because there's more +accuracy on hades is you fucking up the parsing and discrediting your results.

Regardless of if you fucked up the parsing or not, the delay difference is completely irrelevant, since it's not big enough to get you an extra attack round in before the mob is dead. Your math is assuming constant attacks for 10 minutes, which you're not going to get in a merit party. In any good merit party, the mobs are going to last maybe, 45 seconds. The delay difference means that the Sainti attack 0.15 seconds faster, so in order to get another attack round in, you'd need the mob to live for 39 attack rounds, or 228.15 seconds.

Waghs are better for damage, period.

Wether you eat sushi or not +2 accuracy does the same. I delibarately did imps because 80% accuracy is what you get with decent gear and sushi on mamooljas, on pup.

Yes, it still gives you 2 more accuracy, but you've completely missed the point yet again; it will have significantly less of an effect the more accuracy you have. You've obviously never heard of the concept of diminishing returns; 2 accuracy isn't always +1% hit rate, otherwise you could easily get a 100% hit rate. When you have a shitload of accuracy, another 2 isn't going to make a difference. Your own test proved it.

 

[pchan]

I know game mechanics. But if you had any common sense or intelligence, you'd know it's an approximation, not a stone cold fact; otherwise it'd be possible to get 100% hit rate.

It's a fact.

The fact that it has more accuracy was never in doubt, what was being discussed is: does that more accuracy make a difference? You've completely ignored the crux of what I said to argue something that hasn't been disputed and that you've either proven to be irrelevant or proved that your test is invalid.

Assuming you parsed correctly, you got 78% accuracy(which is your hit rate when parsing) with both weapons, therefore the 2 accuracy had no effect on the results, meaning the wagh baghs are better since they do more per-hit damage.

I don't remember stating 78% accuracy in both test.

If you fucked up the parsing, then your results are completely irrelevant. You taking the accuracy/hit rate and adding to it because there's more +accuracy on hades is you fucking up the parsing and discrediting your results.

You don't know how to speak without using "fucked" ? You realize it's forbidden to insult peole outside the FB right.


I don't see how my test get discredited by the accuracy considering I didn't test the accuracy. If you had a vague idea on how to do test you'd know that testing 2 accuracy is impossible, what's doable is larger amount of accuracy and then make the ratio.

the delay difference is completely irrelevant, since it's not big enough to get you an extra attack round in before the mob is dead.
Waghs are better for damage, period.

Delay reduction is important. That's what makes either a good melee or a bad one. 9 delay is nothing ? It's the same as haste 2% and if you were a monk it would be 2.5% haste. Actually it's better than that since it doesn't count towards haste cap. It's more delay reduction than usukane sune-ate, the same as fuma sune-ate, and more than half the delay reduction from byakko on a monk.... So should we all trade our haste gear and trade it for attack ?

 

[Bajaratt]

It's a fact.

So you're saying a 100% hitrate is possible, that you can never miss, ever, with enough accuracy?

I don't remember stating 78% accuracy in both test.

You're right, you didn't. You did say this though:

rough accuracy ~ 78%
average melee hit with wagh = 43.1
average melee hit with hades= 42.0

Which is just you making up numbers, meaning the test still isn't valid.

You don't know how to speak without using "fucked" ? You realize it's forbidden to insult peole outside the FB right.

Saying someone messed up isn't insulting them. "Fucked up" is a more severe and direct variant of "messed up" or "erred" or "made a boo boo." It's not an insult to anyone with at least average intelligence.

I don't see how my test get discredited by the accuracy considering I didn't test the accuracy.

Awesome, I don't even have to try anymore(not like I was trying hard to begin with); you've just admitted that you did the test wrong and that it's not valid. Great job!

The sad thing is you probably don't get just why your numbers are meaningless now. If the accuracy isn't trustworthy, then the damage numbers you were using isn't trustworthy, since the accuracy played a part. Therefore, we can't trust your results; meaning your test is completely discredited.

If you had a vague idea on how to do test you'd know that testing 2 accuracy is impossible, what's doable is larger amount of accuracy and then make the ratio.

It's impossible because it's an insignificant increase at that level, which means: it doesn't matter, and that Wagh's are still superior. "Using a ratio" is inaccurate, because you're still depending on an approximation, unless you really believe a 100% hitrate is possible. But, that means you're manipulating the real results after the test is over, which hurts it's credibility.

Delay reduction is important. That's what makes either a good melee or a bad one. 9 delay is nothing ? It's the same as haste 2% and if you were a monk it would be 2.5% haste. Actually it's better than that since it doesn't count towards haste cap. It's more delay reduction than usukane sune-ate, and more than half the delay reduction from byakko on a monk.... So should we all trade our haste gear and trade it for attack ?

You missed the point, again. Yeah, haste and lower delay is nice, but when it has zero impact on real results, not just ones you make up, then it's completely meaningless. Unless it takes you 228.15 seconds to kill a single mob, you will never notice that delay reduction; it will never boost your damage. You get an insignificant boost in attack speed, yes it's faster, but it's like accuracy, very small improvements don't add anything you can actually measure. That's why only a single piece of haste gear doesn't do much for you, but when you add a bunch on, it has a really big effect.

Haste gear is not just for delay between melee attacks, it also effects the recast of spells; mainly utsusemi since everyone subs nin nowadays.

 

[pchan]

You missed the point, again. Yeah, haste and lower delay is nice, but when it has zero impact on real results, not just ones you make up, then it's completely meaningless. Unless it takes you 228.15 seconds to kill a single mob, you will never notice that delay reduction

Thank you for the awesome contribution. Basically to all you fellow pups : don't equip haste gear, it has no impact etc.

 

[Naibara]

Thank you for the awesome contribution. Basically to all you fellow pups : don't equip haste gear, it has no impact etc.

Once again, Pchan, you completely miss the point. Tell me, did you even read what he said? Nowhere did he say that haste/lower delay is useless under all circumstances, which is what you seem to be implying he said. But no, all he said was that if that particular amount of -delay isn't enough to make you get in another attack round before the mob dies, resetting your delay, or something else of the sort, then it is completely irrelevant and should have no bearing on your decision. And like he said, -9 delay when your average delay would be 420 is not going to make a difference unless you kill very slowly.

Another thing that makes your test faulty is that it was done on imps, and, as was mentioned, you didn't parse WSs. Waghs WS harder, there can be no denying this. In a parse, you have to consider everything, not just your melee hits. On imps, you could be getting amnesia'd and be forced to hold WS at above 100 TP on waghs because of it, and that will screw up parse results. Amnesia is such a rare status condition, you're not usually going to be fighting a mob that inflicts it.

To summarize: Your parse is a joke and the results are very skewed in multiple ways, it has become completely null and void at this point.

 

[pchan]

Nowhere did he say that haste/lower delay is useless under all circumstances, which is what you seem to be implying he said.

Your argument is null and void because this is implying that delay reduction and haste is only beneficial to low delay weapons. Are you implying that dark and sam should not use haste gear too ? I mean Hagun : delay 450, uskane sune-ate : haste 2 ==> delay reduction exactly 9.


I already answered to the WS part. If you want to compare the benefit of both weapons on WS please do it.

 

[Naibara]

Your argument is null and void because this is implying that delay reduction and haste is only beneficial to low delay weapons. Are you implying that dark and sam should not use haste gear too ? I mean Hagun : delay 450, uskane sune-ate : haste 2 ==> delay reduction exactly 9.

If the amount of haste they're using isn't enough to allow them an extra attack round,(as I already said, why don't you try reading?) then yes, haste gear is going to be useless. Why are you even bringing haste into this? We're talking about 9 delay, not 2% haste. Extreme difference.