Haste VS ATK VS ACC Your view ?

[Lavi]

Most warriors have very little in haste gear. Maybe a swift belt at best. Everything else such as Speed belt, Dusk gloves, unicorn leggings are all very expensive. So why would they even bothering using 4% haste when according to you, it's useless?

Edit: Forgot turban. But even then, it's one piece and that still doesn't account for those that have solely the turban and no belt. Or the levels pre-turban when a lot of people use swift.

 

[etchdog2000]

Most warriors have very little in haste gear. Maybe a swift belt at best. Everything else such as Speed belt, Dusk gloves, unicorn leggings are all very expensive. So why would they even bothering using 4% haste when according to you, it's useless?

Edit: Forgot turban. But even then, it's one piece and that still doesn't account for those that have solely the turban and no belt. Or the levels pre-turban when a lot of people use swift.

Turbin+ swift belt + hiadate+ dusk gloves +haste spell= an extra 3 almost 4 attack rounds a minute


A WAR gets ton more use out of that setup.


Your bare bones WAR is better off not using a haste setup, unless they can get a Turbin and swift belt.


If a WAR is hasted, they can get away with only a turbin and get almost an extra 2 attk rounds.

 

[Uzor]

I'd have to agree with Lavi. Its not about getting an extra hit in. Even with 8% haste, every hit will come 8% faster. That means that a 200 delay weapon is suddenly 184 delay weapon. With 15% haste, a 200 delay weapon will suddenly be 170 delay. This naturally means you'll be killing faster.

You don't need to get an extra hit in in order to speed fights up. The way you're presenting haste is like this:

Everyone attack with the same speed, but when you reach a certain percentage, an extra hit is added in.

That's not the way Haste works.

 

[etchdog2000]

I'd have to agree with Lavi. Its not about getting an extra hit in. Even with 8% haste, every hit will come 8% faster. That means that a 200 delay weapon is suddenly 184 delay weapon. With 15% haste, a 200 delay weapon will suddenly be 170 delay. This naturally means you'll be killing faster.

You don't need to get an extra hit in in order to speed fights up. The way you're presenting haste is like this:

Everyone attack with the same speed, but when you reach a certain percentage, an extra hit is added in.

That's not the way Haste works.

its simple math what is wrong with you guys. you can do A amount of attacks with B amount of haste in a certain amount of time. Go to any job forum on the net and they will tell you the same thing. This concept is like last year.

 

[Skaw]

its simple math what is wrong with you guys. you can do A amount of attacks with B amount of haste in a certain amount of time. Go to any job forum on the net and they will tell you the same thing. This concept is like last year.

Exactly whats wrong with you? Uzor pretty much spelled it out as clearly as it can get. Reduced Delay is an instant result of haste. If everyone has reduced delay, fights are sped up significantly. It's not about getting an extra hit over a certain amount of time, but about getting your hits in sooner. Extra hits compared to someone not using Haste equipment is more or less a side effect.

 

[Dayner]

well if drk want to be a "haste job* he need to sacrificial STR and ATK

most drk scythe got delay of 528 even with 20% haste that abot 422 stll kinda alot plus we even may hit less without our STR and ATK gear

our tp gain with scythe is alot better then it use to be, 15% TP a hit by a scythe and also abs-TP

guess you cant get everything you want to >_>

normal speed with hard hit or fast with weak hit

 

[etchdog2000]

Exactly whats wrong with you? Uzor pretty much spelled it out as clearly as it can get. Reduced Delay is an instant result of haste. If everyone has reduced delay, fights are sped up significantly. It's not about getting an extra hit over a certain amount of time, but about getting your hits in sooner. Extra hits compared to someone not using Haste equipment is more or less a side effect.

But it doesnt matter. You wont see the extra result of the haste gear until a certain amount of time has been past. 30 second fight a person with 25% haste gear attks just as many times as a person that hast 0% haste with that high of a delay weapon. So of course the extra attk and acc from other gear is going to push the non-haste geared person to win the parse.

We arent talking about a MNK or WAR or NIN that attks fast, we are talking about a DRK.


What is so hard to understand about that.

 

[Skaw]

But it doesnt matter. You wont see the extra result of the haste gear until a certain amount of time has been past. 30 second fight a person with 25% haste gear attks just as many times as a person that hast 0% haste with that high of a delay weapon. So of course the extra attk and acc from other gear is going to push the non-haste geared person to win the parse.

We arent talking about a MNK or WAR or NIN that attks fast, we are talking about a DRK.


What is so hard to understand about that.

It doesn't matter what job you're talking about. Quicker Attacks = Quicker Kills, assuming you've balanced your accuracy and attack with other equipment. Even if the time doesn't last long enough to score any extra hits, your normal hits have added to faster damage.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[etchdog2000]

It doesn't matter what job you're talking about. Quicker Attacks = Quicker Kills, assuming you've balanced your accuracy and attack with other equipment. Even if the time doesn't last long enough to score any extra hits, your normal hits have added to faster damage.

What's so hard to understand about that?

I showed you a table. Of how many attks you get in 1 minute with different amounts of haste. It is blindingly obvious.

1 minute fight

14% haste 6 hits
0% haste 6 hits


Where is the faster dmg? Where is all this add dmg you are talking about?

 

[Skaw]

Where is the faster dmg?

In the 14% hasted attacks, duh. Please, go back to elementary school and take basic math if you can not get this. You're attacking faster, thus incurring your damage sooner, resulting in enemies dying earlier. You're not necessarily doing more damage, but you're getting EXP faster because of mobs dying faster than if you didn't have that haste.

Where is all this add dmg you are talking about?

There is no additional damage, unless additonal hits due to the reduced occur. Which no ones talking about but you. Hastes effect isn't seen in only more attacks.

What you're arguing equates to this: "Why run 5 miles in 2 minutes when you can run it in 2.15. You're not getting any bonus miles." And thats painting yourself out to be pretty goofy over the haste subject.

 

[etchdog2000]

There is no additional damage, unless additonal hits due to the reduced occur. Which no ones talking about but you. Hastes effect isn't seen in only more attacks.

that is exactly what we are talking about. Haste setup VS Attk/acc on DRK.

A haste setup sucks for DRK. That is the point. You give up far too much to gain far too little. That is the point. Everyone thinks Haste is great, yah put on that turbin its 5% haste. But on DRK 5% haste by itself SUCKS. it buys you next to nothing. And you are giving up adaman celeta or whatever for essentially NOTHING.

5% haste buys you nothing on DRK by itself unless you are fighting 3 minute fights.

 

[etchdog2000]

the point is on WAR, NIN, MNK, you gain tons more then you do on DRK. is an extra attk round a minute worth giving up 20-30 odd attk and 20 odd acc? I think not.

 

[Skaw]

You know what, I'm going to go back and underline the key point, since you obviously have some sort of condition that forces you to skip over it. Hell, I'll bold it too just incase you miss it again.

the point is on WAR, NIN, MNK, you gain tons more then you do on DRK. is an extra attk round a minute worth giving up 20-30 odd attk and 20 odd acc? I think not.

You're assuming the loss of that attack and accuracy puts more of a dent in damage to outweigh the earlier attacks haste grants. Which, given the numbers you've provided that would be lost, should provide a decent chunk of haste(10-15% as a realistic somewhat-easily obtainable example.) To which I say, it doesn't.

You're right though, going overboard on haste is equally as detrimental as going overboard on attack and neglecting accuracy, and vice versa. But 20 of each is very slack for that amount of haste.

 

[etchdog2000]

You know what, I'm going to go back and underline the key point, since you obviously have some sort of condition that forces you to skip over it. Hell, I'll bold it too just incase you miss it again.



You're assuming the loss of that attack and accuracy puts more of a dent in damage to outweigh the earlier attacks haste grants. Which, given the numbers you've provided that would be lost, should provide a decent chunk of haste(10-15% as a realistic somewhat-easily obtainable example.) To which I say, it doesn't.

You're right though, going overboard on haste is equally as detrimental as going overboard on attack and neglecting accuracy, and vice versa. But 20 of each is very slack for that amount of haste.

I am not only saying that going overboard on it is counter productive, but too little is counter productive as well.

Example would be simply switching out adaman celeta or Ohat for turbin by itself. You are giving up 5 acc, 8ttk or 10 acc to do the same amount of DMG 3 seconds earlier with slightly lower accuracy.

add in a swift belt to that. Pretty easily attainable haste gear.

9% haste will make you do the same amount of DMG and same amount of hits but just 5ish seconds earlier. But you would lose either 12acc 13attk, or 2acc 25 attk.

Its just not worth it. same dmg 5ish seconds earlier? and give up roughly 7-9% acc and 13attk or 1-2% acc and 25 attk?


Edit: Forgot the -5 attk and +3 acc on swift.

 

[Skaw]

Accuracy+ isn't Accuracy%. Your idea on how the system works is very skewed. I can tell you that with Merited Scythe, skipping out on Optical Hat/Adaman Celeta will not be noticable without looking at numbers after many many fights. And it will NOT be as drastic as a 7-9% Hit rate. I'd be suprised if the difference was 3% for removing Optical Hat.

Jobs may differ in functionality, but they follow the same exact formulas for damage and hit rate. These are universal, it doesn't matter what you're playing as.

 

[wolfskymoon]

i was thinking of new setup for drk

DRK/SAM with scythe

head : Homam Zuchetto / Walahra Turban 3%/5%
hand : Homam Manopolas / Dusk Gloves 3%
legs : Homam Cosciales 3%
feet : Homam Gambieras 3%
Waist : Speed Belt / Swift Belt 6%/4%

Last Resort recast merit 5/5 shortened by 10 seconds for every merit
Desperate Blows merit 3/3 delay cut 5% for every merit
hasso 5% delay cut

stats

Haste : 16% ~ 20 %
delay cut : 20% with Desperate Blows *every 4 min or so but last for 30 sec ..*

Acc : 20 / 17
ATK : -3

*notes*
i didnt include other Items slot stats

so what you guys think ? you think its going to work out ?

Too much tp given to mob is what i think.Last time i checked drk didn't have subtle blow or do they?.

 

[Lavi]

Too much tp given to mob is what i think.Last time i checked drk didn't have subtle blow or do they?.

Too much stupid given to the QCDN reader is what I think. Do you even know how TP is given to a mob or do you just talk like an idiot all the time?

It's your TP +3% so a high delay weapon will give less than 2 low delay weapons. Even with subtle blow, dual wielded weapons will add more TP in most cases.

 

[Uzor]

The higher delay there is on a weapon, the less TP is given to the mob over time. The job that gives the most TP to a mob is THF, and NIN before they got subtle blow.

And while on the subject of doing more damage... wiht haste gear, he might get a hit in 1 sec before the mob dies, which he wouldn't have done without haste gear, in which case he just magically did do more damage.

Either way, the reason most people like haste is to attack faster, thus killing mobs faster, thus increasing exp/hr, not getting an extra hit in. I do agree on 1 point though, and that is that DRK shouldn't concentrate on haste gear. They're there to hit slow and hard, not faster and weaker. And with Absorb TP, they can still SC almost once per fight, so hitting faster wouldn't be that usefull sicne they'd still attack rather slow.

Edit: Since you like numbers so much, let's play with numbers, shall we?

Let's say a fight lasts 50 sec.

60 delay = 1 sec. So with a 60 delay weapon, you'd attack 50 times. Now, fastest normal weapon is 180 delay. That's 1 attack every 3 sec, or 16 (16,66) attacks without dual wield or any haste gear.

I do believe Dayner said earlier that scythe is 525 delay. That's 1 attack every 8,75 sec without any haste gear, meaning he'd hit 5 (5,71) times during a 45 sec fight. That's 5x15 = 75 TP assuming he hits all of them.

Now, if we added some haste gear to that, let's say 5% haste. In first example, it brings us to 171 delay, meaning 1 attack every 2,85 seconds, which gives us 17 (17,54) attacks during the same fight. That's an extra hit right there that you got in before the mob died.

In the second example, it brings us down to 498,75 delay. Let's make it 499. That's 1 attack every 8,31 sec, meaning with 5% haste, he'd hit 6 (6,01) times in the same 50 sec fight. As you can see, with both a 180 delay weapon and a 525 delay weapon, both got an extra attack in due to just attacking not even a second earlier per hit.

 

[etchdog2000]

I roughly equate 5 acc to 2-3% acc. That has been proved true time and time again. Even been proved true via my own tests and parses. Ohat removal for turbin is a loss in 4-6% acc. Especially when an attk based DRK with little ACC gear takes it off. I pulled those numbers from my own tests. As well as anyone can pull that test.


What we havent even talked about is this. For a party to kill a mob 10% faster EVERYONE of the DD need to be attacking 10% faster and not lose out on much ACC or ATTK. So if you are talking 4 melee, none of which are using haste gear and you pop a DRK using haste gear in there (say 10% haste) your fights are lasting the exact same amount. You actually arent killing quicker. So if you cant count on having everyone in your party in haste setups, and you arent getting another hit in, what is the point?

 

[Uzor]

I roughly equate 5 acc to 2-3% acc. That has been proved true time and time again. Even been proved true via my own tests and parses. Ohat removal for turbin is a loss in 4-6% acc. Especially when an attk based DRK with little ACC gear takes it off. I pulled those numbers from my own tests. As well as anyone can pull that test.

This is pure bullshit if I've ever seen it. Did you just find a pull to pull it out?

Accuracy isn't linear. Never has been, never will be. At lower levels, accuracy play a much more important role then it does on higher levels. You can't get 100% accuracy, so if your accuracy is 99%, no matter how much mroe you add, you won't ever reach 100%, ever. This is proof that accuracy isn't linear.

In the same way, +10 accuracy might make a difference, but +10 more won't matter as much. And thus, your observation is meaningless. Your tests are wrong, as accuracy can never, ever, be proven in percentages.

What we havent even talked about is this. For a party to kill a mob 10% faster EVERYONE of the DD need to be attacking 10% faster and not lose out on much ACC or ATTK. So if you are talking 4 melee, none of which are using haste gear and you pop a DRK using haste gear in there (say 10% haste) your fights are lasting the exact same amount. You actually arent killing quicker. So if you cant count on having everyone in your party in haste setups, and you arent getting another hit in, what is the point?

While yes, this is true to some extent, I do believe I already proved to you that even 5% haste will get 180 delay as well as 525 delay an extra hit in during a 50 sec fight.

The part you are right in, is that unless everyone uses haste, then the fights won't be much faster. But last I checked, almost everyone in merit parties use haste gear. And last I checked, we were also talking about merit parties, not normal exp parties.