Haste VS ATK VS ACC Your view ?

[Arctyrael]

I read that Please Execute My Dear Aunt Sally

 

[Uzor]

It may not be saying much, but it's the generally accepted description of ACC. All skill until 200 = 1 ACC per. Over 200 = .9 ACC. ACC gear = 1 ACC. 1 DEX = .5 ACC.

And, as Rappa said, Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally!

200 + (remaining skill*.9) + (DEX/2) + ACC gear

That formula would still be incorrect, since there's 2 formulas in that case.

Either way, a generally accepted theory is in no way, shape, or form a proof. It's an accepted idea, similar to how many things in rl are generally accepted, but in no way, shape, or form, proven.

Examples of proven formulas is the TP formula, magic attack formula, WS damage formula, stoneskin formula and phalanx formula.

While yes, it could be correct, I won't deny that, I won't assume it as being "true".

Either way, yes. Haste is a good thing. But as been stated before, you shouldn't focus on haste and ignore everything else.

 

[delsus]

That formula would still be incorrect, since there's 2 formulas in that case.

Either way, a generally accepted theory is in no way, shape, or form a proof. It's an accepted idea, similar to how many things in rl are generally accepted, but in no way, shape, or form, proven.

Examples of proven formulas is the TP formula, magic attack formula, WS damage formula, stoneskin formula and phalanx formula.

While yes, it could be correct, I won't deny that, I won't assume it as being "true".

Either way, yes. Haste is a good thing. But as been stated before, you shouldn't focus on haste and ignore everything else.

2 STR = 1 Attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
We know DEX effects acc so why can't it be:
2 STR = 1 attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
2 Dex = 1 acc?

 

[Shyrra]

2 STR = 1 Attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
We know DEX effects acc so why can't it be:
2 STR = 1 attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
2 Dex = 1 acc?

Can you read? Look in the formula, this has already been stated.

200 + (remaining skill*.9) + (DEX/2) + ACC gear

Jesus man, read what people fuckin write.

On topic: I tend to agree with Rappa, you can crunch numbers all you want, but the best proof is in just accumulating a bunch of ACC, ATK, and Haste gear, and parse different combinations and find out which is most efficient for you. ^^

 

[wolfskymoon]

Too much stupid given to the QCDN reader is what I think. Do you even know how TP is given to a mob or do you just talk like an idiot all the time?

It's your TP +3% so a high delay weapon will give less than 2 low delay weapons. Even with subtle blow, dual wielded weapons will add more TP in most cases.

When did i say dual wield gives less tp lol? it was haste vs att/acc nutjob

 

[Uzor]

2 STR = 1 Attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
We know DEX effects acc so why can't it be:
2 STR = 1 attack
2 VIT = 1 Def
2 Dex = 1 acc?

I believe I never argued that... That's already well known though watching STR and VIT. That's not even what I argued about -.-

 

[Skaw]

Yeah, Uzors point is the key point. While every formula people eventually refine does come out to work, it's still 100% theory. The only way to make it complete fact is to rework the games code(illegal,) or know the people who designed the actual formula.

 

[metachronism]

That formula would still be incorrect, since there's 2 formulas in that case.

Either way, a generally accepted theory is in no way, shape, or form a proof. It's an accepted idea, similar to how many things in rl are generally accepted, but in no way, shape, or form, proven.

Examples of proven formulas is the TP formula, magic attack formula, WS damage formula, stoneskin formula and phalanx formula.

While yes, it could be correct, I won't deny that, I won't assume it as being "true".

Either way, yes. Haste is a good thing. But as been stated before, you shouldn't focus on haste and ignore everything else.

...It's a formula that is empirically derived that works at every sample point. If that's not good enough for you, I dont' know what would be. These formulas were not pulled out of people's asses. They were verified by adjusting each of the variables against mobs at threshold values, which were publically known (yes, people sat for hours shuffling stats around to find exact points where the +/- modifiers on mob /checks change).

Let me show you a trivial way to verify this:

Find a mob that cons high evasion at base stats. You add straight x +acc in increments of 1 until it changes to flat.

now you have a reference value of x acc.

Now all you have to do is vary dex from the base value, and then keep adding until it changes. Voila, it happens to change when you add exactly x * 2 dex.

Now to find the skill relationship:

below 200: you will repeat the same procedure and find that it's a 1:1 relationship.

above 200: Set your base acc such that you are exactly -10 acc below the threshold value. Now, add some +skill items (say, rapier belt + suppanomimi ), which is +10 skill. You will find that the rating will not change. Add 1 more acc, and it will.

Really, these test cases are not really hard to come up with. It's just that some people took the time to play with the variables.

 

[Uzor]

...It's a formula that is empirically derived that works at every sample point. If that's not good enough for you, I dont' know what would be. These formulas were not pulled out of people's asses. They were verified by adjusting each of the variables against mobs at threshold values, which were publically known (yes, people sat for hours shuffling stats around to find exact points where the +/- modifiers on mob /checks change).

Let me show you a trivial way to verify this:

Find a mob that cons high evasion at base stats. You add straight x +acc in increments of 1 until it changes to flat.

now you have a reference value of x acc.

Now all you have to do is vary dex from the base value, and then keep adding until it changes. Voila, it happens to change when you add exactly x * 2 dex.

Now to find the skill relationship:

below 200: you will repeat the same procedure and find that it's a 1:1 relationship.

above 200: Set your base acc such that you are exactly -10 acc below the threshold value. Now, add some +skill items (say, rapier belt + suppanomimi ), which is +10 skill. You will find that the rating will not change. Add 1 more acc, and it will.

Really, these test cases are not really hard to come up with. It's just that some people took the time to play with the variables.

The thing is, you said the formula works for both, but that formula shows that all, including those for below 200 skil, increases with 0.9.

In which case there's 2 formulas, but you only showed 1 of them.

And yes, I'm well aware of the way people do it. But the keyword is still theory.

 

[Lavi]

...It's a formula that is empirically derived that works at every sample point. If that's not good enough for you, I dont' know what would be. These formulas were not pulled out of people's asses. They were verified by adjusting each of the variables against mobs at threshold values, which were publically known (yes, people sat for hours shuffling stats around to find exact points where the +/- modifiers on mob /checks change).

Let me show you a trivial way to verify this:

Find a mob that cons high evasion at base stats. You add straight x +acc in increments of 1 until it changes to flat.

now you have a reference value of x acc.

Now all you have to do is vary dex from the base value, and then keep adding until it changes. Voila, it happens to change when you add exactly x * 2 dex.

Now to find the skill relationship:

below 200: you will repeat the same procedure and find that it's a 1:1 relationship.

above 200: Set your base acc such that you are exactly -10 acc below the threshold value. Now, add some +skill items (say, rapier belt + suppanomimi ), which is +10 skill. You will find that the rating will not change. Add 1 more acc, and it will.

Really, these test cases are not really hard to come up with. It's just that some people took the time to play with the variables.

Didn't read, too long. Simple Solution: Homam. The OP expressed interest in the gear for DRK so I can only assume has some desire and the abiltity to obtain the gear as well. 12% Haste and +32 acc as well as several other useful stats such as +HP, +MP, +enm, and the ever so sexy enhances triple attack (I am told +5%) which doesn't even require THF to be of use. If you are worried so much about losing accuracy at the cost of haste, this is the solution (at least for the jobs that can equip it; DRK, DRG, THF, PLD, BLU). Now admittedly, you will lose damage per swing because unlike a Hauberk and similar gear, you gain no attack or strength, but there are several different options. 32 Accuracy is quite a large amount and in your remaining slots, you can fill them with +attack and STR gear to compensate for the losses or gain access to BRD for neccesary attack songs. However, there is also other positive points as well. Haste means faster TP build (if you can keep accuracy up and with Homam, I believe you will do just fine) and more hits in the same amount of time so even if you are gimpy each individual hit, you are still doing multiple hits(~1.2) to every one hit you did without the haste. Then there is the more frequent weaponskill usage. Strap on the best damage gear you can find and go to town in 80% of the time. So really, what is to debate?

By the way, with a haste setup of full Homam and Swift Belt, one can get around 120 swings in the time to an unhasted player can get 100 swings. Can you honestly tell me that with other gear, you can attain a 20% damage increase? Mind you, that doesn't even include the enhances triple attack effect of the body which gives 10 extra swings per 100 swings (no DA or TA) to 130 swings (THF/WAR w/ Brutal Earring and TA merits).

 

[metachronism]

The thing is, you said the formula works for both, but that formula shows that all, including those for below 200 skil, increases with 0.9.

In which case there's 2 formulas, but you only showed 1 of them.

And yes, I'm well aware of the way people do it. But the keyword is still theory.

I *specifically* addressed skill < 200, and that you can verify that it is indeed 1:1. There is only 1 formula. The skill/acc relationship is just not continuous, that's all.

I thought it was obvious, but for skill < 200, the formula is simply:

skill + dex/2 + eq modifier

 

[metachronism]

...Please don't bring up mathematical models if you are too lazy to validate them. 14% haste vs 5% raw acc (~+10 acc) is not even a remotely legitimate comparison. Please tell me which equipment slots the haste:accuracy exchange ratio is anywhere near the 3:2 that you use?

If you actually do the math, you will see that EVEN WITH FULL HOMAM, a drk cannot hit the 420 accuracy mark without sushi, therefore, loading up on acc is POINTLESS beyond 370 or so, because sushi will just make you hit the 95% raw accuracy cap. This is why I suggested that the homam be swapped out for dusk in some pieces, if he wanted to maximize damage. Full homam with meat will not hit anywhere near 95% in uleguerand or against mamool, and your overall damage will suffer as a result. You must assume sushi.

The optimization of damage involves
1) getting as close to 95% as you can on raw accuracy
2) squeezing in as much haste as possible without sacrificing 1) too much. More weight needs to be put on 1 for the longer delay weapons.
3) getting more atk where you can.

in this order. If you take it out of order, I will guarantee you that you will end up doing less damage, sans the exception jobs mentioned earlier. This is why you don't see people using blitz ring.

Didn't read, too long. Simple Solution: Homam. The OP expressed interest in the gear for DRK so I can only assume has some desire and the abiltity to obtain the gear as well. 12% Haste and +32 acc as well as several other useful stats such as +HP, +MP, +enm, and the ever so sexy enhances triple attack (I am told +5%) which doesn't even require THF to be of use. If you are worried so much about losing accuracy at the cost of haste, this is the solution (at least for the jobs that can equip it; DRK, DRG, THF, PLD, BLU). Now admittedly, you will lose damage per swing because unlike a Hauberk and similar gear, you gain no attack or strength, but there are several different options. 32 Accuracy is quite a large amount and in your remaining slots, you can fill them with +attack and STR gear to compensate for the losses or gain access to BRD for neccesary attack songs. However, there is also other positive points as well. Haste means faster TP build (if you can keep accuracy up and with Homam, I believe you will do just fine) and more hits in the same amount of time so even if you are gimpy each individual hit, you are still doing multiple hits(~1.2) to every one hit you did without the haste. Then there is the more frequent weaponskill usage. Strap on the best damage gear you can find and go to town in 80% of the time. So really, what is to debate?

By the way, with a haste setup of full Homam and Swift Belt, one can get around 120 swings in the time to an unhasted player can get 100 swings. Can you honestly tell me that with other gear, you can attain a 20% damage increase? Mind you, that doesn't even include the enhances triple attack effect of the body which gives 10 extra swings per 100 swings (no DA or TA) to 130 swings (THF/WAR w/ Brutal Earring and TA merits).

 

[Uzor]

...Please don't bring up mathematical models if you are too lazy to validate them. 14% haste vs 5% raw acc (~+10 acc) is not even a remotely legitimate comparison. Please tell me which equipment slots the haste:accuracy exchange ratio is anywhere near the 3:2 that you use?

If you actually do the math, you will see that EVEN WITH FULL HOMAM, a drk cannot hit the 420 accuracy mark without sushi, therefore, loading up on acc is POINTLESS beyond 370 or so, because sushi will just make you hit the 95% raw accuracy cap. This is why I suggested that the homam be swapped out for dusk in some pieces, if he wanted to maximize damage. Full homam with meat will not hit anywhere near 95% in uleguerand or against mamool, and your overall damage will suffer as a result. You must assume sushi.

The optimization of damage involves
1) getting as close to 95% as you can on raw accuracy
2) squeezing in as much haste as possible without sacrificing 1) too much. More weight needs to be put on 1 for the longer delay weapons.
3) getting more atk where you can.

in this order. If you take it out of order, I will guarantee you that you will end up doing less damage, sans the exception jobs mentioned earlier. This is why you don't see people using blitz ring.

Homam Manpolas: Haste +3% Accuracy +4

vs.

Dusk Gloves: Attack +5 Haste +3%

Homam Cosciales: Accuracy +3 Haste +3%

vs.

Dusk Trousers: attack +14

Homam Gambieras: Accuracy +6 Haste +3%

vs.

Dusk Ledelsens: Attack +4 Haste +2%

Homam Zucchetto: accuracy +4 magic accuracy +4 haste +3%

vs.

Dusk Mask: Accuracy +5

Homam Corazza: Accuracy +15 Tripple Attack

vs.

Dusk Jerkin: Accuracy +2

I don't see your point? While yes, Dusk Trousers might be better to use, most of Homam is superior to Dusk.

 

[metachronism]

Maybe because you didn't read? I specifically said HANDS and FEET. The acc from homam does jack shit beyond the acc cap. This is why, given equal or greater haste, the dusk piece with equivalent haste is unequivocably superior in all aspects.

And really, if you're just fantasizing about gear, there is zero reason to take homam over the HQ dusks (which will have 1% more haste overall, with the side bonus of atk). I would argue that even the NQs will produce better results between the hands and feet, despite the loss of 1% haste, once you're already beyond the acc cap.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero reason to add accuracy beyond the bare minimum needed to get 95%. How is that a difficult concept?

 

[Uzor]

Maybe because you didn't read? I specifically said HANDS and FEET. The acc from homam does jack shit beyond the acc cap. This is why, given equal or greater haste, the dusk piece with equivalent haste is unequivocably superior in all aspects.

And really, if you're just fantasizing about gear, there is zero reason to take homam over the HQ dusks (which will have 1% more haste overall, with the side bonus of atk). I would argue that even the NQs will produce better results between the hands and feet, despite the loss of 1% haste, once you're already beyond the acc cap.

Bottom line, there is absolutely zero reason to add accuracy beyond the bare minimum needed to get 95%. How is that a difficult concept?

"accuracy cap"? Yes, 95% accuracy is a cap, but I do believe you, yourself, said that cap is near impossible to reach on some mobs... contradiction?

And in the post I quoted you did not say hands and feet. You said "some homam pieces for dusk pieces".

 

[metachronism]

"accuracy cap"? Yes, 95% accuracy is a cap, but I do believe you, yourself, said that cap is near impossible to reach on some mobs... contradiction?

And in the post I quoted you did not say hands and feet. You said "some homam pieces for dusk pieces".

Are you skipping over words randomly or what? I clearly state, it's very difficult to hit the target 420 to hit 95% in uleguerand/mamool WITHOUT SUSHI. This was in response to the people who wanted to deck out on acc with homam. You need to make serious compromises to have enough acc to be able to eat meat (cut back a lot on haste and atk), to the point it essentially defeats the whole purpose.

A drk/sam using hasso with
homam head/body/hands/legs/feet
peacock charm,brutal earring, assault earring
toreador ringx2
forager's mantle
speed belt
tiphia sting
+ scythe merits
no weapon modifier

will have 384 accuracy, which means you will have 442 accuracy after sushi, which overshoots the target acc value for even the uleguerand demons, and ~15 acc is completely wasted. Some of that accuracy is better converted into atk with dusk (like the hands and feet!).

Yes, I can tell you didn't read post #53. I guess the "this is why I said..." couldn't have possibly been a reference to a previous post.

 

[Uzor]

Are you skipping over words randomly or what? I clearly state, it's very difficult to hit the target 420 to hit 95% in uleguerand/mamool WITHOUT SUSHI. This was in response to the people who wanted to deck out on acc with homam. You need to make serious compromises to have enough acc to be able to eat meat (cut back a lot on haste and atk), to the point it essentially defeats the whole purpose.

A drk/sam using hasso with
homam head/body/hands/legs/feet
peacock charm,brutal earring, assault earring
toreador ringx2
forager's mantle
speed belt
tiphia sting
+ scythe merits
no weapon modifier

will have 384 accuracy, which means you will have 442 accuracy after sushi, which overshoots the target acc value for even the uleguerand demons, and ~15 acc is completely wasted. Some of that accuracy is better converted into atk with dusk (like the hands and feet!).

Yes, I can tell you didn't read post #53. I guess the "this is why I said..." couldn't have possibly been a reference to a previous post.

Then don't eat sushi, eat meat and deck out on Homam. In that case your accuracy will still be at 90% accuracy or w/e. (4:20 AM here), and you will have gained even more attack then you would from the +10 or w/e you'd get from the 2 dusk pieces.

As for the last part, I don't think you're in a possition to tell anyone they didn't read your posts when you chose to respond to the same one all the time.

 

[Lavi]

I think you're missing the point. Either math is not your strong suit or you're just ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Either way, you're an idiot. Stop the 95% BS. You do not need anywhere near 95% accuracy for haste to be of use nor do you need extreme amounts either. I don't need to explain myself, I've shown you ten ways to next Sunday, but you've constistently ignored it with a mathematic model that only tells me what my supposed accuracy should be and nothing else. Either learn how to use mathematical models and the data it provides properly or don't use it to give false information. The only one suggesting needing 95% accuracy is you, not the model. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise please do so. That is other than your supposed gospel.

 

[Dayner]

i dont have 95% or even 80% acc with my set up now and i dont have problem in hitting in uleguerand or against mamool hack even aerns in the sea

the only problem i have if mamool ja thf or nin use warm up then ill start missing like mad but rdm mosty dispell that fast

btw i change the title of this thread .. have fun

 

[Uzor]

btw. There's one thing in your formula that you completely ignore that proves its false. And at the very least proves there's more then that formula, which you said "Is the only one".

Melee attacks, accuracy, and magic resistance, all vary depending on the mob's level. A mob several levels above you will be harder to hit then an even match one. That's one of the reasons your accuracy suddenly increases by a noticable amount as soon as you level, even though you didn't gain any skill, nor did you equip any new equipment.