Health care discussion

Pretend it was... explain how it would work

Also that is true that there is already some rationing in health care which is somewhat my point that it is impossible to have a 3rd party pay for health care without rationing being necessary to control costs... 3rd party being the government or health insurance companies. The difference is that atm even if your health insurance company wont pay for it you can still go to a doctor and pay for it out of pocket and get what you want at almost any age... once the government takes over health care the doctors will not be allowed to take people outside of the queue.
 
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Well, first the Democrats would propose it, then the Republicans would go all over the place and scare old people about "death panels" and fake statistics about Canada's health care system so that they start turning up at town hall meetings to yell at Congressmen to "keep government out of Medicare," and accuse anyone of wanting to improve the system of being a Socialist. Then it would get watered down, and we'd be right back where we started from with insurance companies getting rich off of other people's misery.
 
OK... shut up about what you think would happen and pretend you got exactly what you wanted... how is it possible.
 
The current crop of politicians haven't even figured out what the current reform bill is going to look like and you want me to wave my magic wand and design a universal health care system for the United States? If you want me to sit here and play "Let's pretend," I may as well say we'll pay for it with all the gold we found in the leprechaun kingdom.

I would hope that the details for sustaining such a system would be worked out during the political process. Since nobody is proposing that kind of system for our country, there's no point wasting my time. They can't even decide if there'll be a public option for government health insurance, which I think would do a better job of spurring that competition you were talking about.
 
Dejavu said:
The difference is that atm even if your health insurance company wont pay for it you can still go to a doctor and pay for it out of pocket and get what you want at almost any age... once the government takes over health care the doctors will not be allowed to take people outside of the queue.
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This concerns me, more so for your country, but our Government doesn't say no.

You get the treatment you need. The additional expenses come with extended care, home nursing etc. Most insurance companies and corporate plans cover a bit of these types of cases. There is always an added expense but no where near what it would cost for an American family.

Not only could an illness devestate a family emotionally, but it could devestate and cripple a family and generation or two even, financially.



E - I think *your* people should call *my* people and learn how it is we sustain our system. They can always benefit from tweaking and fine tuning until it is a reality for your country.
 
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Here's my take on the issue, and for once it's not going to be an OMG!Conservative rant.

One of my senior projects in college had to do with the social security program in this country. I got to spend quite some time peeling back the onion that is the largest single expenditure this country has.

Social Security is, in a word, a mess.

A horribly malignant metastasized mess that will eventually kill us.

Why am I bringing this up in a discussion about health care? Because it's going to be the same organization that's running it.

Social security got the way it is because literally thousands of different voices over the course of nearly nine decades had input into how it was created. None of these people worked together, nor did they look forwards or backwards and either attempt to plan for the future or learn from the past.

What our government did with regards to social security was always put out the most immediate fire and then sweep the system under the rug until another problem arose that could not be ignored.

The result of all this? You make more from a savings account with 2% interest than you ever do from social security. In fact, since social security doesn't garner interest at all, you actually LOSE money, at the rate of whatever current inflation is.

Would you want that same level of performance associated with health care?

I don't care how big the US federal government is, or how much money it can throw into a nationalized health care system. The bottom line is that a government bureaucracy will never be as good at providing health care as a private company that's cut its teeth on the market and has developed its own competitive advantages in providing health care services.

I can speak with experience, because I'm *in* a health care program run by the federal government. It's called Tricare, and it's been the fed's medical program for military and DoD civilians for years.

It's not bad, but it's not great either. The system is effective, but even a customer like me can see the visible strain it's under.

Tricare only serves a few million... imagine if it were expanded to even *half* this country's population. It would be a gigantic boondoggle.

My answer: encourage free market competition and deregulate the industry. Establish standards so private companies can't attempt to make additional profit by endangering their customers, but otherwise, take your hands off and let private, profit-driven firms find the best and most efficient way to provide health care coverage.

Will rich people get better health care than poor people? Yes, they will. Same way that they get better cars, better homes, and usually, hotter wives. Life isn't fair. But guess what? If you don't let anyone pay for any of their health care (Canada), and force everyone to get the same level of health care, then everyone gets mediocre service.

Instead, through a combination of government aid, tax-free donations from drug companies, charitable organizations, and tax-free donations from hospitals, provide health care assistance to the bottom percentage that can't afford it. Don't provide the service, rather, provide them the means to access the services the free market has already created.
 
Allowing private organizations to provide health care for the rich is one thing. It's been in discussion for a while up here and may be a possibility one day.

I hope you're not indicating that we provide mediocre health care up here though. Otherwise I'd have to say you're talking out of your ass thank you very much.

It would be more beneficial to have both options available. And you're right in saying life is not fair, but when you're talking about citizens that may work themselves to the bones and into a grave but never get ahead to suffer because they weren't lucky enough to be born into a rich family that can afford decent health care, that's sad, not unfair.

Our health care system here is much better than mediocre, and I know there are many here who would argue that with me, but I have been in a number, and I mean a shit load of emergencies and major accidents myself to know what I'm talking about. Not to mention that numerous 'everyday' health issues I face.

Personally having a privately run heath care system as an 'option' to those that can afford it would be nice. Kinda like the 407 here, a tolled highway that is much faster than other major highways because you have to pay. But it's our only tolled highway. Health care is not a commute route to work though.

http://www.parkin.ca/projects_secto...project_profile_william_osler_health_ctr.html

The new hospital erected here. A trip to the hospital here to get MRI's, CAT scans, X-rays, Ultrasounds etc.. just to check what a string of chronic headaches may be caused from, or pains in the abdomen etc. What would that cost you guys? Diagnosis's, treatments, they don't cost here. Drugs and personal extended care. Trips in the ambulance will swing your family $110 or so. But that's it, crutches if you break something, but not the emergency surgery, not the pins they may need to straighten your spine. Think of what you can and most here would be free, but you'd get it done.
 
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Dejavu said:
The next problem is how most people use their health care. The emergency room is made for emergencies… According to this article 55% of emergency room patients should be taken care of by their primary care physicians instead of in the emergency room. Another issue is the unwillingness of the government via regulations to allow people to get care via nurse practitioner vs. a doctor when performing routine procedures that do not require the extra knowledge. Also the AMA should be stripped of their ability to be the sole issuer medical licenses because they are able to intentionally create a shortage in order to keep prices higher for their members.
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Its absolutely true that the majority of ER visits are related to non-emergent illnesses or injury. The majority of non-emergent cases in the ER are from Medicaid patients or patients with no insurance. Patients without insurance seek treatment in emergency departments because the medical staff has to at least triage them, and will most often go ahead and treat them instead of sending the non-emergent cases away to ensure there is a smaller risk of a lawsuit later on. (One of the reasons the ER is so damned expensive is because of the patients with no insurance who receive treatment and then never pay their bill - there are a LOT of them.)

Medicaid patients pretty much don't pay anything, so it doesn't matter to them where they go. Why bother calling your PCP and scheduling an appointment for your low-grade fever and cough for tomorrow when you can just go to the ER today? Patients with commercial insurance run the rick of having their visit not covered if its non-emergent, so they're generally more likely to go to their PCP.

The state and federal government insurance programs that we have now are ridiculous. They provide pretty good protection for those covered by Medicare or Medicaid, but they are often very difficult to work with if you are trying to get them to pay you.

I work for a medical billing company. We bill for some emergency room physician groups in Florida, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. It damned near makes me want to cry every time I have to call the Medicare or Medicaid about a claim or about a provider enrollment issue. It is like many of their employees feel like, since their company has a government contract, they can be as rude and lazy and willfully ignorant as they want. Overall, they're very unhelpful, while most commercial insurance groups place more of an emphasis on customer service. I am concerned that - the more involved the government gets - the more difficult life will be for health care professionals and anyone who works in the medical billing field.
 
As a member of the Air Force, I'm obliged to give Marines hell whenever the opportunity presents itself, because they certainly will do the same to me. It's all part of a friendly inter-service rivalry.

After watching this video, however, the only thing I can say right now is oo-rah Corps.

 
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Celvantes said:
As a member of the Air Force, I'm obliged to give Marines hell whenever the opportunity presents itself, because they certainly will do the same to me. It's all part of a friendly inter-service rivalry.

After watching this video, however, the only thing I can say right now is oo-rah Corps.

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i kinda like this guy >.> nice find celv
 
Things that bother me about usniversal medical

I personally do not think a government ran health insurance will do what people think it will. Look at SSI and medicare. They are ran by the government. They are failing. Look at the cash for clunkers plan. It was posted that the asian car companies saw more out of it. These "people" idiotic as they are mean well. Yet not one of them has given up anything for their fellow american. Nancy Pelosy flies on our tax dollar almost weekily back and forth with her staff and at times family. This is hundreds for thousands of tax payer dollars. Yet these same people scream fiscial responsibility. You can mean well yet kill someone. Oh I thought they were hungry so I gave them a PB+J sandwich....I did not know they were allergic....

Ask yourself this : Why is it Americans are giving up work time so another can keep his job, yet our REPRESENTITIVES have not opted for a pay reduction during these hard times. The lowest paid senator makes roughly 300k a year. How many of them are carpooling? We have atleast four different bills on the table done my people who NEVER sat down with the others to work anything. They placed into the bill incentives for doctors to talk to patients about a living will. A Living will states the amount of effort you want done to save your life. Why should a Doctor be rewarded for doing his job? Also it is more the social workers job with living wills.

The death panels come from the end of life care plan. Should someone dying of cancer have the right to end their life? What are the guide lines? Who makes the call? Would people be refused treatment if it was thought the cancer would not be killed? Every person reacts differently to medicine. Look at the cases of people who should be dead, but lived. This is where the fear is. What if it was you? Would they say because we feel you will not get better you should have this end of life plan... Would you still be able to try to save your life? or would no one want to touch you?

Having a Doctor who states in papers that Granny who is 65 is not worth the same treatment as jr who is 18 because he is older. Same guy says Jr who is 6 weeks old and needs heart surgery is not as important as the man having surgery for heart bypass. These were the same reasoning the nazis used. Quality of life, how productive they can be. This is the person who has had a major role in shaping the bills. So yes people are afraid, the government is not being clear, hell they can not even tell us how they will pay for it other than "savings".

People say well it is ok to tax people making over 200k single and 250k married to pay for these programs. Obama has multiple times looked at increasing their tax bracket to 54%. So a married couple making 250k would be paying well over half their earnings in taxes. In all essence one of them is working for the sole purpose of paying taxes.

I think we have a tax % just under that of France. What is happening to all this money? Maybe better accounting would be in order. The governmemnt should show they can fix the problems they have first before tossing together something on such short notice. Think about it!!!! The have only been working on this for a few months. Do you really want them passing something that no one has A. read, B. understands, or C. taken the time to research if it would be viable. So let us demand that anything be done with education. Not voted on just because the school yard bully demands it.
 
After reading all your posts my thought process has changed slightly. I don't know that your government is trust worthy enough to put such an important role in their hands.

Again I think ours is great but I worry about yours.
 
Keryan said:
The death panels come from the end of life care plan. Should someone dying of cancer have the right to end their life? What are the guide lines? Who makes the call? Would people be refused treatment if it was thought the cancer would not be killed? Every person reacts differently to medicine. Look at the cases of people who should be dead, but lived. This is where the fear is. What if it was you? Would they say because we feel you will not get better you should have this end of life plan... Would you still be able to try to save your life? or would no one want to touch you?
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The "death panel" nonsense has repeatedly been debunked. It does not exist. This is stuff that we already have, except under the new plan it would be paid for by Medicare; having an optional consult with your doctor about living wills hospice care, and power of attorney is not the same thing as being encouraged to pull the plug because you're old. That's just right-wing fearmongering.
 
Celvantes said:
As a member of the CHAir Force, I'm obliged to give Marines hell whenever the opportunity presents itself, because they certainly will do the same to me. It's all part of a friendly inter-service rivalry.

After watching this video, however, the only thing I can say right now is oo-rah Corps.
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Being that I spent a few years in the corps I felt the need to fix what branch of service you are in.
 
Halifirien said:
The "death panel" nonsense has repeatedly been debunked. It does not exist. This is stuff that we already have, except under the new plan it would be paid for by Medicare; having an optional consult with your doctor about living wills hospice care, and power of attorney is not the same thing as being encouraged to pull the plug because you're old. That's just right-wing fearmongering.
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I bet your left wing....Do you agree with them boycotting the organic food CEO who gets paid 33k a year because he published a paper disagreeing with the medical plan? lol they did that to a card carrying Dem who felt that there were better ways to fix the problem.

When teh bills were started they had stated they would offer incentives for this little chat on end of life care. If you had read prior posts of mine I had already said people blew the living will out of portion. Yet Living wills have no place being demanded by the government. That is pateint and doctor. Once they Offer incentives to Doctors who should in all accounts already be talking living wills with paitents it changes. Who would not want to get paid more? All they have to do is talk people into signing a paper...The problem for most people is would it stop there. Looking at history many nations started off with this same concept. Then turned it into genocide. That is HISTORICAL FACT! You also must ask would a Doctor unknown to the publc be offered money to talk people into agreeing to DNR orders? That is Do not resesitate. Meaning if you stopped breathing for anyreason they will not aide you at all. Yes fear mongering... but in human nature we all know there would be people who would do it. They already have a chart and mathmatical formula to figure out just how much effort should go into saving your life. Why would they need this?

If these left wing fanatics who feel government is god really cared about the people....Then they would have offered a real stimuls of 350 billion. That was just the real infasturcture stimulus. The rest was all pork barrel. Then they could have taken the other 450+ BILLION and placed it as a downpayment on this medical they wanted. After all it is what the president claims will help the economy.

Now for covering this what was it...25 million of uninsured....How many are illegal immigrants? Of course you already know MOST places <even taco bell> offer to pay a portion of the medical. They would only have to pay a few hundred. They choose not to. So what is the real number of uninsured LEGAL US citizens? How many MORE could be covered with a tax incentive?

Without a doubt there needs to be reform to help with prices. Yet is the path our government is choosing the right one? ATM it is only 1 side of the table trying to shove a pile of shit down the throats of everyone. This should be bi-partisan, but no one wants to listen to thet other. So far well over 55% of the people DO NOT WANT this bill. They did not want the bank bail out nor stimulus. I would point out both of the latter 2 are a failure. The US post office is going bankrupt yet they man in charge is paid as much as bank CEO's. Medicade/care is failing, and SSI is failing...Do you REALLY think this will work?
 
I gotta wonder what world some of you live in. Maybe mom and dad pay your bills. There have been more times than not where I couldn’t afford a “few hundred” dollars extra in expenses. I went for 15 years without health insurance. I’m not an illegal immigrant and I worked every day like most people. But, the jobs I had simply didn’t offer it. It would’ve been nice to have a real option. Recently, the company I work for laid off about 30 people. One of them I know quite well. She has ongoing health issues and Cobra is still way too expensive. Simply put, she’s screwed. I know she’d like a decent option for health care. It’s shameful the U.S. doesn’t offer its citizens access to affordable health care.
 
Ok... let me ask you a question.. During those 15 years you went without health insurance was it because you literally could not afford it or that you chose to spend your money on other things instead?

I currently don’t have health insurance but that is because ... i am fairly healthy and haven't had a reason to visit the doctor for the last like 10 years. If i really thought i needed it i would have it instead of spending the money elsewhere.

If healthcare was really a priority to you then i have to ask... you obviously have the internet.. that’s $50 a month. Prolly have a cell phone... another $50 prolly. Cable $100. Get rid of those 3 things and that’s 200 a month or ... 2400 a year...

If you wanted to go out and get coverage for one person on your own the average cost is $2,613 which hell were 213 dollars from that just getting rid of 3 things. And that doesn’t even take into consideration that you are probably fairly young and you can hope to come in below that average.

Now the question becomes why do people seem to think that cable, internet and cell phones are worth more to them than health insurance. The fact is if you truly wanted it almost anyone could have it. Why aren’t we trying to pass a law through congress to get everyone free cell phones, cable and internet. Then with the money everyone saves they can buy health insurance on their own. Oh wait that’s right the same people who whine about not being able to afford it now will buy something else shiny with it when the money is in their pocket and then complain they cant afford health care again.

Priorities.. that’s all it is.

What is shameful is that people think that it is their right to use the government as a means of stealing money through taxation from others for projects that are not in the interest of the public as a whole .. like a new road.
 
Oh the judgment and self-righteousness….

I didn’t specify which 15 years I was without insurance. Those were years where, yes indeed, I would’ve paid for health insurance if I could have. I wasn’t out partying, watching cable, or playing FFXI. I’ve never owned a cell phone. Not everyone lives inside the rigid little boxes you want people to fit into. I was raised by parents who grew up during the depression. I wonder if you even know frugal….lol

On one hand, however, I do think I know what you’re driving at. I’ve seen people who seem to have skewed priorities. Then again, unless I know them well, I really don’t know anything, except that it’s not my place to dictate someone else’s values. All I can do is live my life and hope I set a decent example.

Thankfully, I’ve managed in the last several years to secure a good job that offers benefits, so I have health insurance now. You can bet I’m damn grateful for it, too. Too many people, some friends, have one illness or an accident and they are financially fucked for decades to come. That’s wrong.

Say what you will, but I’m willing to pay for some freeloaders if it means the majority get health care. I’m also happy to pay my property taxes. I’m lucky to have a house to live in. You'll never hear me bitch about how much the IRS takes from my paycheck either. I make more money now, I should pay a little more in taxes. I don’t need to judge and split hairs with everyone as long as people’s basic needs are met, I’m satisfied.

Priorities. That’s all it is.
 
Cerato said:
I gotta wonder what world some of you live in. Maybe mom and dad pay your bills.
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... and i'm the one accused of judging people...

Cerato said:
On one hand, however, I do think I know what you’re driving at. I’ve seen people who seem to have skewed priorities. Then again, unless I know them well, I really don’t know anything, except that it’s not my place to dictate someone else’s values. All I can do is live my life and hope I set a decent example.
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But dictating someone else's values is exactly what you are doing through making the government pay for health care... you are telling the people of the world that if they don't have health care their values are not good enough and you are going to tax them to pay for it and then give it to them. The fun part is that most of the people who don't have health care don't have it because they value other things more than health care and by stealing money from the earners of the world they are able to have cable and health care.

Cerato said:
Say what you will, but I’m willing to pay for some freeloaders if it means the majority get health care. I’m also happy to pay my property taxes. I’m lucky to have a house to live in. You'll never hear me bitch about how much the IRS takes from my paycheck either. I make more money now, I should pay a little more in taxes. I don’t need to judge and split hairs with everyone as long as people’s basic needs are met, I’m satisfied.
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And if you would like to help these people by all means donate the money to charity and do it but don't set up taxes and force me to pay for something most people aren't willing to give up the idiot box for if it were to come out of their pocket.
 
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Hmmm.

Let me put this simply.

I pay for my internet, cable, cigarette habit, etc. I also pay for my health care through my taxes. For what I use in a year by means of health care is probably covered from the amount I pay out in taxes. But if something drastic were to happen I would not have the means to pay for the medical care I would require. And it would financially and emotionally devastate my entire family for many years to come IF we did not have the health care system we as Canadians currently have in place. But we don't have to open our pockets in times such as those which I believe saves many lives and creates a better quality of life overall.

I would hate to be responsible for my entire families downfall because something unthinkable happened. I also wouldn't wish that on another family. I don't care that I may not use all I contribute in a year for myself if it helped someone else. Regardless whether they have contributed as much as me. Regardless if they are freeloaders. We are all covered. All of us are treated as equals based on the fact that we are human and Canadians. Not based on how much we make in life as to have the ability to afford ridiculously expensive services.

E- Ultimately, I know I would not be able to afford the Health Care we have if we had to purchase insurance plans and juggle out of pocket expenses. So my quality of life is worth what I have to pay in taxes to cover not only my ass but my family and friends as well.
 
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