HNM LS Ethics

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phazen

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Some things are fairly obvious for the newer linkshells who've started camping HNM's. First, don't mpk anyone. Second, don't steal a HNM after it has already been claimed unless the pt claiming is has come close to wiping and has obviously given up. These points are obvious and if you can control your drooling you shouldn't have a problem figuring them out. Now let's move on to something that has been a problem lately.

Get your own ToD's, good lord. About a week ago our linkshell started camping Simurgh. Why? Well because someone informed us that it was just up and walking around, unclaimed. A few days later we get strider's boots to drop, you can see the date by looking at the last sale on the AH. So what happens, well about 2-3 days later a whole bunch of NA LS'es show up at Simurgh. When one of our members enquired to one of his friends who showed up to countercamp, he responded with "we've been watching your linkshell for the past week, so we saw when you were here."

Really, it's not hard to find a HNM that's not heavily camped, we do it all the time. For some reason though, every time we start camping a HNM, within 2 weeks the number of countercampers triples. This post is not targetted at any one person or any one linkshell, as there are several who seem to be suspect. You know who you are, play the game for yourselves. Chances are we'll call people out after this. I can't imagine the claim success rate for following us around is that good anyway.
 
This posted twice, i dunno why, i hit preview. Is it possible to delete one?
 
phazen said:
This posted twice, i dunno why, i hit preview. Is it possible to delete one?
Click to expand...

Pupusa might be able to do it for you, but you can't edit your posts on the flameboard.
 
ok, maybe nobody will post on the other one and it'll just get lost anyway
 
Well you can't expect to have an HNM to yourself for any extended period of time, especially the one's more in demand. There were times we -did- have two such HNM to ourselves for a majority of a couple months... but when the shell sorta died that ended as well.

As for the rest, yeah, don't steal and don't MPK. Seems people are getting the hang of this courtesy finally, but times I've camped with random folks I heard them pondering an MPK... which if that were to happen I'd show no part in helping them out after. So yea... if the claiming pt wipes, then its free game, or if they give up, go ahead. It aint over till its over.
 
OK i'm going to get flamed hard for this but oh well....

HNM rules there are NONE!!!!!
1. How does a person get the ToD? From camping it or getting word of mouth when it spawned last, or doing an area search and seeing certain poeple there..

2. ( here comes the flamming.) screw the rules. If you lose claim becuase of something YOU did it's fair game. You fuck up you fucked up. If it was me and a PT there your right I would claim it. ( i'm not talking about King behemoth, nidhogg, or those. I'm talking about Behemoth, Serket, Simuge, Roc. Those are easy to beat and if you lose aggro on them then you should be camping them to start with.) I have stole Serket before this Monk/NIN claimed it and was soloing it. Things started to go really bad for him and he had to run or something and lost hate. BAM MINE! the mnk was about to die though so that's not the best example. Sure we had a WHM that could of healed him, but if they want to claim it solo they can solo it with no help at all.

But Claiming like KB and Nidogg is Mean. It's Hard to kite KB. Also I have no respect for a couple of JP HNM campers!!! We got Serket and they trained in about 10-15 undead mobs and died so they all aggroed us on the way back, and we all died. So I would steal from them any time on any mob.

Off subject. me and 5 poeple went to camp Behemoth about a month or more ago. It was Great. I claimed him, and I was like SWEET! then I looked everyone was running. Scoobor claimed King Behemoth, Scoobor Dies! LOL that was funny.
 
Hes kinda right.Like someone can make a rule that only the person who sees the mob first is allowed to voke >.<
 
No, you know what, there are no HNM RULES. That's why this thread was labeled ETHICS. These are simple policies that most respected, established HNM LS'es follow to get along with each other. Obviously if a shell tries to mpk you they don't deserve to be treated with barrels of respect. If we're at king behemoth, and we ge the claim, and someone steals it.... you're damn right we'll steal it back. Ethics are something that really only work out if they go both ways.

And for the record, since svina seems to have missed the point entirely: this is not about countercampers, of course you'll have them and it should be expected. But if you want to camp a HNM, choose a HNM then get the ToD for it, even if it comes down to searching the area every hour until you see people there. It's lame however to stalk a linkshell and go after whatever they're doing, like it has been admitted that some people do to us.
 
And what gives you the right or the authority to tell what other people can and cannot do in game? You advise them that it is not hard to go find a HNM that is not heavily camped and to go find out the time of death on their own. Now how do you suggest a shell get the time of death for a HNM if they don't know?

It is not lame to "stalk" a linkshell and go after what they are camping. The term you use "stalking" makes it sound as if every linkshell that is not your linkshell an enemy of your shell. A danger, a threat, an unexpected factor. Consider "stalking" a strategic method of approximating the time frame for which a HNM is to spawn. How can you consider it lame when the method is 99.9% successful in getting players to the correct zone in the correct window to either claim the HNM or witness, and thereby, obtain the correct and exact time of death?

Though I agree with your ethics, you sound bitter as the number of counter campers has "tripled." You should get use to it. You tell people here to play the game for themselves, but if that is the way they wish to play, who are you to tell them otherwise? Different players have different strategies and will use different methods to reach their goals. Who are you to impede on their progress?

Whatever linkshell you are in you will have no respect from mine. Perhaps we'll see you sometime. In the mean time, don't be surprised if everyone in Jeuno knows the time of death for "your" HNM's. If you want to see counter campers, I can and will have a linkshell member "stalk" your linkshell and give out times to all of your HNM's to everyone in Jeuno. We will then see how you deal with not just a few shells but all of them.

Au revoir.
 
You also should not have to fear that someone will do /sea all <name here> and be like "Oh look, <name > is at x location. How about we go see if there is an NM up since they camp NM often". I have not felt that i can have my friendslist status on anything but invisable mode b/c people use me as a tracer for other NM.

This is an issue we have had many times too... which is why it is being complained about. I could list examples that go as far back as oh... maybe may 2004, right about when we started the shell. If we were there for 2 days in a row, another shell would follow. and in this instance we were told by one of the people who was countering us that they were watching our shell, not even the zone! I mean... /sea rolanberry is fine... /sea all <member of high profile ls> is not...

the major reason i feel justified in agreeing with the complaint is that often times other linkshells, mostly japanese simply because of the dynamics of our server, will be left alone with an NM for months at a time, but as soon as we step into the zone japanese and american groups alike come flocking to it. Serket, King Athro, Shadows, Lumber Jack, Behemoth, Roc, Simurgh, Bune, Ungar, Chardybigdis (i know the spelling is off, and i am tired... so i am not fixing it)... and even HKTK... yeah, thats right, groups spontaniously formed for HKTK in the past when we were doing a run b/c someone saw us in that area... then, there was a week where we were trying for Fafnir, 3 days into us watching it another shell came.

I have spent 45-50 hours(in one week) in the past trying to get a single ToD for something... we have had others sti around for 6-8 hours b/c we knew a basic range to find it out. A lot of the time we knew what LS was camping it, but we didn't watch their every move to find out what they were doing. We bust our ass to keep and find our ToDs, and i really do not think anyone can fault us for being upset that many people have choose to leech off of our efforts.
 
On the other hand just because an LS shows up at your camp doesn't mean they were stalking you.

Today? Idunno where we got the TOD but I was invited to do Simurgh... if that's what this is all about then hell I don't know where they got the TOD... but I can tell you it wasn't because of stalking. Though it would be real easy to spot when a pop was coming merely from /search'ing rolanberry and seeing well known members of your LS there?

As for JP LS... I have very little respect for how JP HNMs work... it doesn't seem like any coincidence that this one group consistently claims Behemoth every day... as you can see the sales on Behemoth Hides are dominated by the same person for the last week or so... no one has been able to beat them to it... so it'd be easy to assume they don't play fair for one reason or another. But I suppose to them using scripts or bots to get things done is accepted... and thus they use them rampantly... however how far do these things really go? They also tend to be the prime suspects of MPKs and stealing claims... and why I don't know... but I guess they see that as appropriate also.
 
Nasya said:
You also should not have to fear that someone will do /sea all <name here> and be like "Oh look, <name > is at x location. How about we go see if there is an NM up since they camp NM often". I have not felt that i can have my friendslist status on anything but invisable mode b/c people use me as a tracer for other NM.

This is an issue we have had many times too... which is why it is being complained about. I could list examples that go as far back as oh... maybe may 2004, right about when we started the shell. If we were there for 2 days in a row, another shell would follow. and in this instance we were told by one of the people who was countering us that they were watching our shell, not even the zone! I mean... /sea rolanberry is fine... /sea all <member of high profile ls> is not...

the major reason i feel justified in agreeing with the complaint is that often times other linkshells, mostly japanese simply because of the dynamics of our server, will be left alone with an NM for months at a time, but as soon as we step into the zone japanese and american groups alike come flocking to it. Serket, King Athro, Shadows, Lumber Jack, Behemoth, Roc, Simurgh, Bune, Ungar, Chardybigdis (i know the spelling is off, and i am tired... so i am not fixing it)... and even HKTK... yeah, thats right, groups spontaniously formed for HKTK in the past when we were doing a run b/c someone saw us in that area... then, there was a week where we were trying for Fafnir, 3 days into us watching it another shell came.

I have spent 45-50 hours(in one week) in the past trying to get a single ToD for something... we have had others sti around for 6-8 hours b/c we knew a basic range to find it out. A lot of the time we knew what LS was camping it, but we didn't watch their every move to find out what they were doing. We bust our ass to keep and find our ToDs, and i really do not think anyone can fault us for being upset that many people have choose to leech off of our efforts.
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I wish invisible meant invisible from /sea's as well...
 
Kharg, such silly questions, who am I to impede on their progress? When what they're doing is attempting to impede ours? I don't even have the heart to answer that. I suppose it's easy to throw together quesitonable flames from behind a fake name though. I'd ask who you were in game but I know you wouldn't be willing to answer that. If you really don't know what LS I'm in then you're probably not a factor anyway.

And svina, like I posted before, we knew how people obtained the ToD because someone told us. Did they say they were watching Rolanberry Fields because they wanted to camp Simurgh? No, they said they were watching our linkshell to see what we might be doing these days.

As for Behemoth, there are tricks that don't involve scripting or botting. Japanese have camped him for a real long time and I'm sure they know the tricks as well as we do. They ping to the server about 100 ms faster than most of us in the US also. Varess has been the one selling the behemoth hides, he's in Cashell's linkshell. Cashell's linkshell holds behemoth for hours with bare fists so that it dies at a time that's convenient for them and not for us. Last friday night after dynamis, king behemoth was expected to spawn, so we went down to attempt to claim it. With full alliances from both shells we claimed and killed it easily, so I really don't think they bot. Oberstein has been the one Japanese person that we've never been able to beat on the claim to any HNM, but that's not good enough for me to call him a cheater. You can try all the bots and scripts you can come up with, they wont help at a camp like behemoth.
 
phazen said:
Kharg, such silly questions, who am I to impede on their progress? When what they're doing is attempting to impede ours? I don't even have the heart to answer that. I suppose it's easy to throw together quesitonable flames from behind a fake name though. I'd ask who you were in game but I know you wouldn't be willing to answer that. If you really don't know what LS I'm in then you're probably not a factor anyway.

And svina, like I posted before, we knew how people obtained the ToD because someone told us. Did they say they were watching Rolanberry Fields because they wanted to camp Simurgh? No, they said they were watching our linkshell to see what we might be doing these days.

As for Behemoth, there are tricks that don't involve scripting or botting. Japanese have camped him for a real long time and I'm sure they know the tricks as well as we do. They ping to the server about 100 ms faster than most of us in the US also. Varess has been the one selling the behemoth hides, he's in Cashell's linkshell. Cashell's linkshell holds behemoth for hours with bare fists so that it dies at a time that's convenient for them and not for us. Last friday night after dynamis, king behemoth was expected to spawn, so we went down to attempt to claim it. With full alliances from both shells we claimed and killed it easily, so I really don't think they bot. Oberstein has been the one Japanese person that we've never been able to beat on the claim to any HNM, but that's not good enough for me to call him a cheater. You can try all the bots and scripts you can come up with, they wont help at a camp like behemoth.
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Ok... 0.1 seconds does NOT matter.
 
when your sending vokes ever .01 seconds it does. Turbo controllers are very common among all people who seriously camp nm.
 
Think we need to get Pascal in here. Im not a network programmer, I know computers are capable of like billions of cycles per second but from what Ive seen any script or controller that is using your in game macro's to send commands to the server won't make a difference if your seeing the mob 0.1 second slower. I think the only way to go that fast is if the script is sending the string "/ja Provoke Behemoth" directly to the server somehow by passing the need to press a macro.
 
Your wrong hun, if you do not have a target you cannot use the job command voke, so seeing the mob .1 seconds means that even thoguh the server is reading your commands at the same speed as everyone else's, your voke will still happen slower because the target was not there for you.

Regardless, the topic of this thread is not the dynamics if claiming something but rather the methods by which you find out somethings time. Svina, perhaps i am simply being silly, but it seems strange that interest in a particular NM seems to almost always follow us, and in the spesific example of last night we were told that we had been (spesifically our LS) watched to find an NMs time. Like i said, i can name many times where something was easy to track... Hell, server up had happened 2-3 days ago, but people did not choose to camp something until they saw us there. At least in the example of last night, those who had been tracking us came out the day before and simply watched the fight for the ToD... We have had groups follow us wherever we went and counter us the day they found us... /fume.
 
As he explained before. If you're sending a stream of provokes it'd look something like this (S being when the voke was sent, R being when the server recieves it)

Code: 
Your vokes   Their vokes
------------------------------
S                    S
S                    S   R
S                    S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
S     R             S   R
       R                  R
       R
       R

Sure latency does have an effect, however if that stream of sent data is continuous (give or take "spikes" in the network) there will be times when your sends are being processed at the same time as your competition's, no matter what the latency.
 
Nasya said:
Regardless, the topic of this thread is not the dynamics if claiming something but rather the methods by which you find out somethings time. Svina, perhaps i am simply being silly, but it seems strange that interest in a particular NM seems to almost always follow us, and in the spesific example of last night we were told that we had been (spesifically our LS) watched to find an NMs time. Like i said, i can name many times where something was easy to track... Hell, server up had happened 2-3 days ago, but people did not choose to camp something until they saw us there. At least in the example of last night, those who had been tracking us came out the day before and simply watched the fight for the ToD... We have had groups follow us wherever we went and counter us the day they found us... /fume.
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Maybe you're just picking the wrong NMs at the wrong time? Idunno bout you but an NM as easy as Simmy with a drop worth as much as it is? I'd sure as hell camp it. If you don't like it, then don't camp there. If someone who was countering you is doing it out of spite of some kind, it isn't me... but I don't care, anyway.
 
That would work in theory, but the software forces you to have a target before it sends the signal to claim a mob. Thus the average american loses 0.1 seconds after they've registered a target to send the signal. If a nm appears on everyone's screen at the same instant, and they all target and provoke a the same instant, the quickest path will win the race. 0.1 seconds is not a lot of time, I never said it was. But consider this, average macro recognition from the server occurs every 0.3 seconds. This gives japanese players a 33% advantage in chance of claim. This makes it plenty possible for an american to win a claim but does still put them at a disadvantage. Now this is all speculation and has never been proven, but all the data I have supports that theory.
 
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