HNMKISS(LS) System Discussion

[Litant]

You're not giving any kind of explanation into your system, only that you don't want a point system, because you don't want those who attend the non-mandatory days to have an edge in lotting over those that only show up when they're required to. Are you just letting everyone lot, or is it the leader's finger method of determining drops?

It's a council based voting system that we use to determine drops. We have several criteria that we use. I won't get into the specifics because that's really not the point of the thread. My whole arguement was that a linkshell doesn't have to use a points system to survive.

I can see this heading in the direction of "what defines and endgame linkshell" so I'll leave it here. All we're really trying to do for our members is give them as much content possible without requiring them to be online 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Obtaining gear is certainly a nice thing but it isn't the only reason to play the game.

Unfortunately not everyone can fit into a points based system. They'd simply be wasting their time trying to compete with those people who have more time to devote to FFXI. It sounds like Dracoden is just trying to provide a means for other people to have a shot at some endgame content. At the end of the day it all boils down to making the gaming experience a fun one for you.

 

[Dracoden]

When I say I dont care about the linkshell as a whole, it is to say that I dont plan on distributing items based on who will help the shell more by having it.

The plan is to play things by ear, but still keeping most of the ideals intact.

We are just looking to have fun, while maybe cause a little bit of havoc for the zomgleetplyrs along the way. Most of you guys posting from prominent linkshells I think are just a bit fearful of a massive group backed by the random audacity of a shell such as this.

 

[Bajaratt]

When I say I dont care about the linkshell as a whole, it is to say that I dont plan on distributing items based on who will help the shell more by having it.

The plan is to play things by ear, but still keeping most of the ideals intact.

We are just looking to have fun, while maybe cause a little bit of havoc for the zomgleetplyrs along the way. Most of you guys posting from prominent linkshells I think are just a bit fearful of a massive group backed by the random audacity of a shell such as this.

No, no one is scared a linkshell like this might work; but instead we know it won't. With this kind of setup, you'll probably never move past baby HNM's and maybe sky. You won't be shaking anything up, just setting yourself up for failure.

"Playing by ear," isn't something you want to plan to do.

There's nothing audacious about your linkshell, it was done before with TheNameless and it failed. Your not planning anything, you're not accounting for greed or apathy, you're not offering any rewards for hard work; you're just going in completely blind and hoping for the best.

 

[Dracoden]

you're just going in completely blind and hoping for the best.

bajaratt ftw

And to add..
I just think, if by chance, some random noob got a ridill or something.. it would twist some's panties in a bunch. That would be payment and success all in itself I think =)

 

[Linhjah]

When I say I dont care about the linkshell as a whole, it is to say that I dont plan on distributing items based on who will help the shell more by having it.

The plan is to play things by ear, but still keeping most of the ideals intact.

We are just looking to have fun, while maybe cause a little bit of havoc for the zomgleetplyrs along the way. Most of you guys posting from prominent linkshells I think are just a bit fearful of a massive group backed by the random audacity of a shell such as this.

There are ways of distributing items other than awarding them to who will help the shell more by having said item or your free lot system.

If the plan is to play things by ear, I think you should reword your recruitment post so that it isn't misleading to those you are trying to recruit.

Having fun is great. I think that is a good, solid foundation for any shell, whether its social, endgame, or whatever.

Do you seriously believe hard core end-gamers are the least little bit intimidated by the "massive group" of 15 to 20 casual players you've accumulated so far? >_>

 

[Bajaratt]

bajaratt ftw

And to add..
I just think, if by chance, some random noob got a ridill or something.. it would twist some's panties in a bunch. That would be payment and success all in itself I think =)

The only panties it would twist would be within your linkshell, everyone else would be laughing too hard. You're not really going to bother anyone with your linkshell, everyone's just been telling you why you're not going to be nearly as successful as you think you will be; there's no jealousy or fear in their posts at all.

 

[Dracoden]

I have no idea how successful it will be, if at all. Like I said, its just an experiment, a hobby, a project to pass the time. If we manage to kill anything, I would deem it a successful experiment. Everything else is gravy.

I guess the proof will be in the pudding

..I feel like tacos

 

[Imaman]

There are ways of distributing items other than awarding them to who will help the shell more by having said item or your free lot system.

If the plan is to play things by ear, I think you should reword your recruitment post so that it isn't misleading to those you are trying to recruit.

Having fun is great. I think that is a good, solid foundation for any shell, whether its social, endgame, or whatever.

Do you seriously believe hard core end-gamers are the least little bit intimidated by the "massive group" of 15 to 20 casual players you've accumulated so far? >_>

Considering the people that have joined so far fall into the "experienced endgame players" category more so than "casual", I'd say you're wrong about that.

All I see in this thread are a few honest people giving their opinion and saying this won't work but still wish the LS good luck, and then a few elitists like Bajaratt and Jamaal who just shoot down the idea. But hey, why would anyone listen to someone (a mnk on top of that..) that says Spharai are crap?

/end rant

 

[Linhjah]

Considering the people that have joined so far fall into the "experienced endgame players" category more so than "casual", I'd say you're wrong about that.

All I see in this thread are a few honest people giving their opinion and saying this won't work but still wish the LS good luck, and then a few elitists like Bajaratt and Jamaal who just shoot down the idea. But hey, why would anyone listen to someone (a mnk on top of that..) that says Spharai are crap?

/end rant

The terms "experienced endgame player" and "casual player" are not mutually exclusive. I don't know who all is on the shell's roster, however, with the system in place, I find it hard to believe that the majority of recruits are players with 40+ hours a week to dedicate to the shell.

 

[DarkMagnus]

I think it took me 6 months+ or so in my 1st sky shell (AerialNexus) to get anything (I had points but I did not lot). Letting people lot that need/benefit more from the drop just made more sense to me. The better your regulars are equipped, the better and more quickly everyone else gets pimped out. Oh and yes people do leave after getting 1 drop.

 

[beeznuts]

Your system isn't going to work anywhere near as well as you're hoping. It's somewhat similar to a system we had in TheNameless(ours wasn't luck though, but consensus among those who were lotting), and that led to apathy, greed and a good chunk of the linkshell leaving because Moraine didn't want to wait for another item after being given a speed belt. We had a small number of really dedicated campers, and a much larger number of "maybe, if I'm not busy" campers.

The system failed because of greed, really; and yours likely will too. If someone have absolutely nothing to gain from camping, and there's no incentive whatsoever to join in besides the drops, you can't expect to build a large number of dedicated players who are going to be willing to risk losing their coveted drops to someone who just joined based solely on luck. It's a system that's ridiculously easy to abuse that offers little in the way of inspiring dedicated players to stick with the linkshell.

One thing I'd like to mention here is this: as one of the first members in TheNameless, it got off to an excellent start, with a very good idea. The problem is, if you're going to make a shell that runs like this, you have to be extremely picky with new members.

Like Bajaratt said, the system failed completely because of greed. It was a good honest effort, and an excellent idea, but it all just fell apart. I'm not sure if something luck-based will have a better or worse chance, but I honestly wouldn't be too hopeful. It's sad, but it's the truth. The only advice I could give to you guys: be very careful who you pick up.

 

[Imaman]

The terms "experienced endgame player" and "casual player" are not mutually exclusive. I don't know who all is on the shell's roster, however, with the system in place, I find it hard to believe that the majority of recruits are players with 40+ hours a week to dedicate to the shell.

Only one problem here, I never said we had people who give up their social life just to be on top of points. It all depends on your definition of "casual". I know the plan here is to get a good group of core players that we can rely on, and then fill in the casual but experienced players when needed. For this to work people will have to make sacrifices and understand that they might run into a little bad luck, but everyone goes into each camp session knowing they have a chance. That is the big difference.

Can you honestly say you look forward to coming to events for a year until you can finally be able to lot that Ridill or Adaman Hauberk? Look at the trend in this thread, the people who have spoken up tend to play a lot (not a flame here, nor a no life card) and are in successful points based linkshells. Of course those who have no problem dedicating their free time to this game like the fact that if they put their work in, they know they will eventually get something. I perfectly understand why some people don't think this will work but a few specific people (You know who you are) went out of their way to make it look like some incredibly stupid idea that has no chance of working.

A lot of you are going to be suprised, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Linhjah]

Only one problem here, I never said we had people who give up their social life just to be on top of points. It all depends on your definition of "casual". I know the plan here is to get a good group of core players that we can rely on, and then fill in the casual but experienced players when needed. For this to work people will have to make sacrifices and understand that they might run into a little bad luck, but everyone goes into each camp session knowing they have a chance. That is the big difference.

Casual - adjective
1. happening by chance; fortuitous
2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand
3. seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned
4. appropriate for wear or use on informal occasions; not dressy: casual clothes
5. irregular; occasional
6. accidental

Yes, luck is a much better facet for item distribution.. for the casual player who doesnt have any time to play and would much rather try his luck at a chance than have no chance at all.

This system caters to the casual player. It benefits the casual player more than it would benefit a hard-core player. I think it will be hard to build that core you're talking about when the system works against them.

Can you honestly say you look forward to coming to events for a year until you can finally be able to lot that Ridill or Adaman Hauberk? Look at the trend in this thread, the people who have spoken up tend to play a lot (not a flame here, nor a no life card) and are in successful points based linkshells. Of course those who have no problem dedicating their free time to this game like the fact that if they put their work in, they know they will eventually get something. I perfectly understand why some people don't think this will work but a few specific people (You know who you are) went out of their way to make it look like some incredibly stupid idea that has no chance of working.

No, I would not look forward to that at all. But item distribution does not have to be a priority system just like it doesn't have to be a random system. There are plenty of other ways of distributing items.

I feel like I am probably one of the people you're referring to as those who have spoken up. FYI, I am a casual player. I have Tuesday nights where I'm on for a good amount of time, and that is it. If you /sea all Linhjah, you will probably see me logged on, but I am most likely not at the keyboard. RL > FFXI

I don't believe that it is an incredibly stupid idea at all. I think it is impractical. I think there are better ways of accomplishing your goal. But, to be fair, you shouldn't ask for feedback if you aren't prepared to deal with it, which I think the OP was. You should recognize that not everyone who posts on QCDN is tactful and considerate at all times; you shouldn't expect this thread would be treated any differently.

 

[Bajaratt]

Considering the people that have joined so far fall into the "experienced endgame players" category more so than "casual", I'd say you're wrong about that.

All I see in this thread are a few honest people giving their opinion and saying this won't work but still wish the LS good luck, and then a few elitists like Bajaratt and Jamaal who just shoot down the idea. But hey, why would anyone listen to someone (a mnk on top of that..) that says Spharai are crap?

/end rant

I love how I'm elitist because I'm offering personal experience as to why the linkshell has a very low likelyhood of succeeding.

Oh, and spharai suck balls; you're a monk with way too much money and not much sense to buy one.

 

[Daveman]

Serious questions to dracoden/imaman

How many times have you camped a king?
How many times have you camped fafhogg?
How many king pops have you seen?
How many consecutive days have you camped the same hnm max?
Have you ever needed to give up sleep, or set an alarm in order to camp?
Have you ever killed KB/Aspid/Fafnir/Nidhogg?
Have you ever seen the same mob pop last window almost an entire week in a row?
Have you ever camped more than one HNM a day?
Have you ever camped all 3 in the same day?
Have you ever spent about a week with zero claims camping all 3 daily?

 

[Blancho]

.........

 

[Lenneth]

Have you considered making your casual shell with a point system? I mean if all your players are casual then whats the difference other then a stupid lottery system which will just end up pissing alot of your own members off? if everyone shows up casually like they would with a lottery system then wouldnt the end result be the same?

 

[Dracoden]

Serious questions to dracoden/imaman

How many times have you camped a king?
How many times have you camped fafhogg?
How many king pops have you seen?
How many consecutive days have you camped the same hnm max?
Have you ever needed to give up sleep, or set an alarm in order to camp?
Have you ever killed KB/Aspid/Fafnir/Nidhogg?
Have you ever seen the same mob pop last window almost an entire week in a row?
Have you ever camped more than one HNM a day?
Have you ever camped all 3 in the same day?
Have you ever spent about a week with zero claims camping all 3 daily?

yes
10+
numerous
several
yes
yes
um.. no
yes
I dont think so..
no

 

[Kreoss]

Honestly, I find shells with opaque lotting rules to be somewhat dodgy. The officer of Fury that posted earlier (my apologies for forgetting the name) mentioned that Fury operates from a Council-based vote for who gets what. From looking at your site and its rules, the different factors that go into the Council's decision are solid measurements such as hours put in, and more ephemeral factors such as attitude and usefulness to the shell. The reason most shells use a DKP system is because it makes everything clear as crystal--points are earned, points are spent, without any potential for favoritism or bias. It does mean that Monk that just joined the shell a month ago might bristle when, say, a Beastmaster gets Byakko's Haidate over him, but that Beastmaster came to sky and worked his tail off for half a year. I'm frankly more comfortable with that than the thought that my efforts are being weighed in a smoke-filled room around a circular table by a mysterious group of individuals.

As far as Dracoden's idea, I've noticed he's been responding to a lot of the advice/criticism presented in this thread with flippant remarks and an offhanded attitude. My guess is, he thought that the community's response would be a lot more positive since he's gotten so many applicants to his shell already, and the torrent of criticism is a bit of a surprise. My thought is that if his base is mostly casual players, he may not have the core of motivated players that usually get the casual players out to the camps and out to get things done. Casual players will be much more likely to move on to something else after a week of no drops. And if he intends the shell to have a revolving door of new members to replace the ones moving on, then he'll constantly be retraining and orienting new people to the endgame scene without that steady base of hardcore, experienced vets that are at the heart of every shell.

 

[Daveman]

yes
10+
numerous
several
yes
yes
um.. no
yes
I dont think so..
no

Was hoping for more detailed response, but by the looks of it you're actually not that experienced in some camps. (only 10ish fafhogs is the only solid number you gave me). Lets just put it this way, my shell has been camping fafnir for about 3-4weeks or so now daily, only missing due to other events twice. Despite regularly camping this long, I do not consider us over the hump, and know that things can still easily break apart and members can lose morale and stop showing up. We are not at the level of being secure as a shell that camps fafnir yet despite being there almost every day, and actually killing it both times we claimed. Many members show on the sole basis that they know they're getting a fairly large amount of points just for showing up. Without a point system alot of them would probably show less or only in their primetime, and we would be less able to kill fafnir. As it is, if it doesn't pop during a primetime or weekend for us, we'll have a hard time being able to pull off a kill with our current level of skill and familiarity with the fight.

This is with a point system and several hardcore players, with your system, the hardcore players are more likely to stay away, and you'll have a harder time summoning up the forces needed to do certain events. While I've personally killed fafnir with 9 people or so, I do not expect my shell to be able to do that yet, nor will yours. As such, unless you can contentiously muster up a force of 18+ people despite not having a point system, you'll have a hard time with kings and fafnir.

On top of this, we have some casual players, and some of them have actually picked up an item or two along the way, it's not just the hardcore players getting gear, infact the more hardcore are less likely to get gear as they'll be "saving up" points, since we wanted our system to prevent loot whoring or the same person getting everything, there is actually a nice spread of who gets gear. We haven't killed enough yet to really see how it'll work in the grand scheme of things, but we've had members with relatively low amount of points win black belt items, or even abjurations like w.head or a.feet. While most of the high point members have none or maybe one item so far.

The casual player will not get our first ridill, nor our first e.body, but they might have a realistic shot at a black belt, e.hands, n.head, w.body, maybe even a.body. Depending on how it all works out.

Hell, as a leader, I go to school, making my playtimes not the prime time everyone plays (weird class hours), and I do consider school more important than this game, just because we have a point system, doesn't mean everyone is to play the game loser-style and sacrifice their real lives. We are trying to recruit people in odd time zones specifically so our members can just sleep through a 4am est window without worrying about "will we have enough to kill it", and the people who consider our 4am, their 7pm, can just camp normally.