Honor

Honor is an ideal, best summed up by the Japanese people who lived it as the basic principle of life for many ages. As a matter of emphasis, i'll quote an entire summary of the samurai code.

儀　（Gi)　　Honesty and Justice.
To be acutely honest throughout your dealings with all people, believe in justice, not from other people, but from yourself. To the true samurai, there are no shades of gray in the question of honesty and justice.　　There is only right and wrong.

礼　（Rei) Polite Courtesy.
Samurai have no reason to be cruel. They do not need to prove their strength. A samurai is courteous even to his enemies. Without this outward show of respect, we are nothing more than animals.


勇　(Yuu) Heroic Courage
Rise up above the masses of people who are afraid to act. Hiding like a turtle in a shell is not living at all. A samurai must have heroic courage. It is absolutely risky. It is dangerous. It is living life completely, fully, wonderfully. Heroic courage is not blind. It is intelligent and strong.

名誉　(Meiyo) Honor
A true samurai has only one judge of honor, and this is himself. Decisions you make and how these decisions are carried out are a reflection of whom you truly are. You cannot hide from yourself.

仁 (Jin) Compassion
Through intense training the samurai becomes quick and strong. He is not as other men. He develops a power that must be used for the good of all. He has compassion. He helps his fellow man at every oppertunity. If an opportunity does not arise, he goes out of his way to find one.

誠　(Makoto) Complete Sincerity
When a samurai has said he will perform an action, it is as good as done. Nothing will stop him from completing what he has said he will do. He does not have to "Give his word." He does not have to "Promise." Speaking and doing are the same action.

忠 (Chu) Duty and Loyalty
For the samurai, having done some "thing" or said some "thing", he knows he owns that "thing." He is responsible for it, and all the consequences that follow. A samurai is immensely loyal to those in his care. To those he is responsible for, he remains fiercely true.



People who have none of these qualities are the scum of the server, people who have all of these qualities have no need to publish them (that's why those kind of people can't be found easily). Our american concept of honor is pretty vague, and is really more of a matter of individual interpretation. People can be found who fill some of the qualities listed, but the person who can live all of these qualities is certainly worthy of being listened to imho.

I suggest we try to be more specific when we refer to (american) "honor" since it tends to be so vague.
 
I think that you can usually tell within 5 minutes of meeting someone whether or not they are honorable. I've had to blacklist someone just after teleporting because they acted in a disgusting fashion just after getting where they needed to go. I used to never blacklist anyone, and after sitting in Lower Jeuno teleing for a while, I decided if I wanted to be less offended by people, I needed to start in order to keep having a good experience on the game. I've just always been raised and acted "the way I want others to treat me." I think that's a good rule of thumb in order to stay an honorable person.

And, not to keep your post sidetracked or anything, but WSM, did you mean that girls don't play as well as guys, or that girls don't play as MUCH as guys? Just curious, because I wasn't sure which one you were saying. :oops:
 
Reishu GREAT POST!

All of those are what I include in the concept of honor, I interpret the one you bolded as You yourself are responsible for your honor, for following the code and holding yourself responsible for transgression.

Compassion heading falls under my concept of Noblesse Oblige, the Knights code.. The strong must protect the weak. That doesnt mean just from the abuse of power by others, but also that the strong must police themself so that they dont abuse their own power. That is honorable.
 
There is also a fine line between Dishonor and Immaturity. Some people unfortunately display both.

The fact of the matter is, this being an MMORPG, everyone is brought up differently. Certain morals and beliefs are not shared or even taught (yet). There are adults and there are children playing this game. That in itself is an issue. As an adult, you know (at least you should know) right from wrong. Kids will be kids and try to get by on that alone.

Don't get me wrong... You do have some younger players that act more mature than some adults and adults that act more immature than most children. So you can never judge a person based on their age alone.

I guess my point is (before I go off on another tangent), to show honor displays maturity and in most cases those who are immature are the ones that are the ones who show dishonor. Actually, I don't know what I am trying to say.
 
Honor... hmmmm


Orchid no offensive but i personally think you are too emotional about dickheads online. Thers dickheads IRL, believe me i grew up around dickheads (Compton, California). Just got to channel that shit out. Honor can mean a lot of things. but imo, complaining about people like wsm,seppeuku etc making you so upset you need to right a vent thread about it... come on =/. Imo i see Honor like fighting for your country, like the US troops are doing in Middle East atm. Protecting the ones you love etc.
 
Dickheads I can take or leave, I think honor itself is important. This post isnt to rant about dickheads, but to find out what people think of honor, or if they even do.

And no offense, and I wont go into it here, but being in the military doesnt grant you automatic honor. Militaries can be dishonorable. WWII anyone?
 
Part of the reason I love the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan is the group of people in it called the Aiel, who have a harsh and amazing system of honor. I love the fact that their children are raised to be free and are hardly ever criticised or punished for anything with the understanding that as soon as they reach a certain age they will start their training to be an adult and are held to much stricter and higher standards. I have always wondered how much different our society would be if we had a similar set of beliefs and values irl.

I think part of the reason so many people are without honor is because most people are not held to be responsible for anything, and it's starting at a much younger age (i.e.: taking the power away from teachers to effectively deal with their students), and continuing on with the countless poinless suings bogging down the courts in this day and age.
It all boils down to the same thing, if people had more honor, 99.9% of these things either wouldn't happen, or would get fixed by the participants themselves immediately.

I guess my whole point is that you need to try to be as honorable of a person as you can and hope that other people will be influenced by it, because I'm doubting that it's going to get any better any time soon.
 
I'm not hijacking the thread. My post was about honor and myself. I used my self as an example and to explain some facts to someone who has no idea whats he talking about. My self because you mentioned my name as reference to an asshole which i am not.I think my picture is sacred to me... maybe not to you.I'm sure you'd like it when i put your face somewhere you won't like it to be, would you?.
I fail to see the difference between colbwa and some other people on the thread. Colbwa took the options that he had available the time he got sky and hit 70. He joined chineese ls (There's no proof they sell gil same way there is no proof some ppl buy gil) so that he could see/go through the endgame content eventhough he didn't have support from the NA community,which is unfortunately required to progress. So if i'm correct you guys wanted colbwa to stay away from your linkshells/ your parties/your alliances and sky. But he got around that by getting sky and joining a linkshell who doesn't really care about people's opinion on colbwa. Whats wrong with that?? He's doing no harm to you and hes getting his work done along. If you don't want someone standing by you then i'm sorry one day he'd be standing right across you n maybe against you.
 
do you think this post will change people? stuff like this always gets me down. i feel like i am the type of person who trys to emulate some of the ideas the Reishu pointed out, and this makes me aware of my shortcomings. i especially regret things like this last topic i made. MajorHavoc i apolagize.

on another note, i have been in china for the past 5 weeks and even though the are not the japanese, they too have a concept of honor. it is not talked about, and there is no "code" or anything, but it is displayed in thier behavior. 95% of the chinese people i have met have displayed all of or at least a good number of things that Reishu metioned. here it is commenplace, not admired. someone in this thread mentioned "if everyone was like thing what would we have to look up to?". we wouldnt have honorable people to look up to we would be admiring the successful people in thier field. in FFXIs case, people that are awesome at thier job, and people who have done things that are absolutly extraordinary.

do i think that everyone here can become honorable? i think yes. i think almost every culture in the world has a concept of honor. we all just call it something different. these people that steal and betray are merely just misconstruing that. im out of time, i hope i got my message across.
 
wolfskymoon said:
I'm not hijacking the thread. My post was about honor and myself. I used my self as an example and to explain some facts to someone who has no idea whats he talking about. My self because you mentioned my name as reference to an asshole which i am not.I think my picture is sacred to me... maybe not to you.I'm sure you'd like it when i put your face somewhere you won't like it to be, would you?.
I fail to see the difference between colbwa and some other people on the thread. Colbwa took the options that he had available the time he got sky and hit 70. He joined chineese ls (There's no proof they sell gil same way there is no proof some ppl buy gil) so that he could see/go through the endgame content eventhough he didn't have support from the NA community,which is unfortunately required to progress. So if i'm correct you guys wanted colbwa to stay away from your linkshells/ your parties/your alliances and sky. But he got around that by getting sky and joining a linkshell who doesn't really care about people's opinion on colbwa. Whats wrong with that?? He's doing no harm to you and hes getting his work done along. If you don't want someone standing by you then i'm sorry one day he'd be standing right across you n maybe against you.
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you see the problem with this people dont just hate that ls because it a gil seller ls i could care less if they are gilseller how a person spend there money is no consern to me but how they go about getting the gil is if they are doing it like every other ls then that fine, but if they use cheat tactics like mpking these now envade the rules of ethics which should be followed in a game. Now alot of stuff is fabercated because they are gilseller and gilseller seem to be blame for everything these days but there are to many flame for it not to be some truth. Im sure in some ways they see the same colbwa thinks if they hate me anyway and are not going to play nice to me it dont give them any insentive to play fair now does it. is it wright :?: no of course not do they care? nope i dont think so
 
Honor is a fancy word for common courtesy.
I'm seeing a lot of long posts here, and I'm not going to go into a long thing about this, I'll instead sum it up with this.

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten.

Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Live a balanced life
When you go out in the world, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.

That's pretty basic, live that way, and you have honor.
 
i see your point Acutie. the reason the word honor is used is people find honor to be important. also "honor" could also be defined as a set of moral guidelines, which Reishu pointed out exactly. aloso., if we all learned it in kindergarten, why dont we use it today?
 
I agree, but not everyone lives by the Kindergarten Code.

Many people have brought up concerns about what to do with people who don't live by a socially acceptable moral code, and i have a little to say about how i deal with it.

My simple rule of thumb whenever i deal with people is like gardening: if a person doesn't grow (emotionally, and usually mentally as well), something is wrong.

Case in point: the philosophy of an eye for an eye is pretty prevalent among the server, especially among the HNM crowds. Nobody grows, people just get more powerful and more irritating/irritable; blind with power, and blind with anger. I will -not- join any of them until i can find a LS who doesn't play that game at all; it reeks of the stupidity of humanity. Hell, i don't even camp NMs that people compete fiercely over, and i know of more than a few people who are inclined to agree.

I don't care if i'm the only lvl 75 rdm who thinks like that, it's not worth my time or my personal honor to myself to go against what i believe.

And before some smartass decides to say anything along the lines of "only an idiot would think they can hope for something better", i have an answer for them: who's the idiot, the person who works to make a hope happen, or the person who tears down the hopes of others?
 
Honor? Haven't seen much of that lately...

Just last week I lost a large amount of gil on the Auction House because of a combination of Jeuno lag, lack of sleep, and later as I find out, an honorless player.

Judging honor can sometimes be hard. How do you know whether someone is out to get something in return, or just be there to help because it is a good thing to do? Well ... I used to think the people I added to my friends list would be the ones to help out in times of need and the same in my case for them. Then after waiting days or weeks before getting help did I realize that honor was dead. No one does anything without getting something in return. That was when I pretty much gave up on people and this so called honor.

There isn't even a handful of people on this server I trust. For those few I am thankful for. But for those who stab me in the back, or take money from me that I accidentally bid on through the AH ... you will get what is coming to you.
 
Any suggestions about what we can do to help you lan? (i know it's hijacking the thread, but it has to be asked)
 
Only help I want is for someone to convince Karahan to give me my money back. :cry:
 
Reishu said:
I agree, but not everyone lives by the Kindergarten Code.

:lol: he said kindergarten code :lol:

i agree and honor is what you think of your self reputsion is what other think of you
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While I agree with everything Reishu has said...I still believe most people break down into, lets call it "asshole mode", because they just wanna be the best as soon as possible, and won't do anything that conflicts that general interest.



Darkdante said:
I think maybe the whole concept of Honor sometimes is misunderstood by everyone. I think some people here are confusing "Respect" with "Honor". Honor is like respect but its also ALOT MORE.

If "Honor" was practiced by everyone, and everyone was "Honorable". Would it really be something to strive for and to admire?

I think people in general tend to think the "impossible" and think "everyone" can be honorable, or even "the majority" of us.

After all "Honor" is in the eye of the beholder.

If it is, how can you have a world where everybody would see the majority of people having honor? That would be a world where everybody sees everything the same. And if you can't see as most people having honor how can you treat people with trust which honor demands among 2 people?

Actually in theory true HONOR should not depend on the trust of another. But if you keep getting burned would you continue to act honorably? Would anyone?
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Just thought that was a neat set of questions...all I can really say is, during The Warring States period (rather, around the times of Oda Nobunaga), even if people were the greatest of enemies, the ones that were the most honorable were the ones most respected. If any of a daimyo's generals (or, even themself) did something that was considered dishonorable at the time (which could be something as simple as attacking someone from behind or if they were unarmed), they would hafto commit seppuku, and if refused, would be executed, and their entire family would be looked down on.

And when a daimyo themself did something dishonorable and didn't repent, it caused quite a lot of defections, as well as betrayals and enemies.


So yeh...may not be a big deal to most people now, but at one time, a great majority was VERY concerned about being honorable.
 
Lanien said:
Honor? Haven't seen much of that lately...

Just last week I lost a large amount of gil on the Auction House because of a combination of Jeuno lag, lack of sleep, and later as I find out, an honorless player.

Judging honor can sometimes be hard. How do you know whether someone is out to get something in return, or just be there to help because it is a good thing to do? Well ... I used to think the people I added to my friends list would be the ones to help out in times of need and the same in my case for them. Then after waiting days or weeks before getting help did I realize that honor was dead. No one does anything without getting something in return. That was when I pretty much gave up on people and this so called honor.

that sucks man ive done this before as well was buying cure IV spell and accendently bought cure III spell didnt press the matter cause it was my fault though lag had a big part in it but i made mistake and someone got about 20x as much for spell.
There isn't even a handful of people on this server I trust. For those few I am thankful for. But for those who stab me in the back, or take money from me that I accidentally bid on through the AH ... you will get what is coming to you.
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