How does weapon delay translate into the actual time between

[Lavi]

Never heard that but none the less, if you have a weapon which gets 6 TP per hit, you can still reduce the delay down to 300 correct? So effectively you could get 11-12 TP per swing, but have the same delay.

I am also under the impression delay of the weapon is the determining factor of TP per hit. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Skaw]

Never heard that but none the less, if you have a weapon which gets 6 TP per hit, you can still reduce the delay down to 300 correct? So effectively you could get 11-12 TP per swing, but have the same delay.

I am also under the impression delay of the weapon is the determining factor of TP per hit. Correct me if I am wrong.

If you checked the link you would've read it D:

But yes, you're correct. Base Delay is what determines TP gain.

 

[Darkdante]

Mighty nice formulas for something you could just as easily figure out by expierience. Just count the seconds next time you fight.

Is it that hard?

:?

 

[Stouter]

It would definately be possible for a thf to gain 100 TP in 30 seconds. The haste spell lowers your spell recast by 1/6, assuming that it has the same numbers for melee attacks, this would make a 180 weapon (the highest delay of the 5 TP floor) swing at 150 delay. The haste spell and haste gear do not lower your TP per hit, unlike that thread you linked to state, and thf can gain +27% haste from gear. That'll make any 220 or less delay weapon hit at that 150 minimum, let's use a harpe, with delay of 210. So now that single wielded harpe swinging at the fastest possible speed will give off around 5.9 TP per swing (my 212 delay anubis' knife gives 5.9, I'm assuming same on harpe)

Add on Store TP from samurai sub, store TP from equip, and store TP and double attack from food you can gain a 27% boost to your TP, plus double attacks. You now have about 7.4 TP per hit, and swinging 12 times in that 30 seconds. Factor in TP from the previous WS (dancing edge, 5 hit for 11.4 TP full hit) and you have 100.2 TP, and that's without double or triple attack factored in.

One other thing that was definately neglected in the arguement so far is the additional TP gained on ws's as a /nin. If you're talking about doing a ws every 30 seconds, you need to factor in the TP you have from usng the previous one. As a rng/nin, I get 15 TP from a full hit rampage, 11 as rng/thf. It's a 5 hit ws. I believe this to be true of all ws's, and dancing edge will typically return 13 TP to a dual wielding thf iirc.

edit - corrected a little math, but the numbers still came out the same.

 

[Stouter]

All ready explained. Once you hit the breakneck delay(150 single, 300 dual weild) you cannot get any faster.

The breakneck delay for dual wield is not 300 delay. I just took my ninja out to fight some EP manticores out of boredom, and used /clock to time 20 swings, or 10 double swings. Here's what I got:

-1 weapon, 227 delay, 20 swings in 76 seconds. This supports 60 delay = 1 second.

-2 weapons, 227 delay each, 10 swings in 58 seconds. This is about a 30% haste, which is about a 25% reduction in total delay, which is what most people agree DW3 (which I have) gives.

-2 weapons, 150 delay each, 10 swings in 38 seconds. This comes out to about 225 delay, and has that same 30% haste/-25% delay as with dual 227's, so if there is a floor for dual wield delay, it's 225ish or lower.

ps - I don't think that the 150 delay floor for single weapons is correct either. As bard I remember after getting my HN, having a mage haste me while I sang double march. I was hitting a whole lot faster than once every 2.5 seconds.

Edit - just went out as bard, testing double march (with +2 instrument) and a hornetsneedle. Tested twice, both times same results, 20 swings in 52 seconds with no march, 20 swings in 42 seconds with double march+2. 150 delay is not the floor for a single weapon, if a floor even exists.

 

[Nibble]

<,< doesnt really matter to me what, whats his face thinks.. because ive done it.. and alot more than once lol..

basically the only real fuction this serves (the 100% tp in 30 seconds) is so that i can SC beginning, rip the mobs up with a single SC.. and within 30 seconds after that SC goes off the mob is usually dead.. so.. this makes it so i start each mob with a SC the same way.. SC >> gain tp >> rinse and repeat..

~nib

 

[Skaw]

Oh, and something I forgot to mention. Hundred Fists doesn't speed up hits to a static delay, but rather a fraction(a very small one.) The higher delay a weapon, the higher of a delay you'll have with Hundred Fists. Test it out with Relic Knuckles, you'll punch a lot slower than using a normal weapon. Slow enough to where with Double and Kicks, you cannot selfchain, which was the whole point of my test back when I tried it.

And Stouter, I never believed for a second there was a delay wall at 150/300, but rather thats what I read in the linked thread.

Considering with haste(hell, just haste gear), I can punch a lot faster than 5 seconds.

Rather than a bare minimum delay possible, I'm pretty sure Square's coded bare maximum delay cuts per weapon. I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy seeing Scythes and Lances swung at sub200 Delay.

 

[Rones]

The haste spell and haste gear do not lower your TP per hit, unlike that thread you linked to state

Read past the first post. That mistake is corrected already in the thread and not really relevent as the main point of the thread revolves around Ruic's delay and haste data.

The haste spell lowers your spell recast by 1/6, assuming that it has the same numbers for melee attacks, this would make a 180 weapon (the highest delay of the 5 TP floor) swing at 150 delay

Again, read more of the thread. If you had, you would see that isn't how haste is calculated.

For example as Ruic explains it:
Make sure you understand that the haste formula isn't:
Delay * (100 - (Haste %/100)) = New Delay
It is
Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay

For example

If your haste % is 50, and your combined weapon delay was 500
500 * (1 - .5) = 250 (Wrong Formulea)
500 * (1/(1.5) = 333 (Right formulea)

If your haste % is 100, combined weapon delay was 500...
500 * (1-1) = 0 (Wrong formulea)
500 * (1/2) = 250 (Right formulea)

thf can gain +27% haste from gear. That'll make any 220 or less delay weapon hit at that 150 minimum

Again, no. 220 * (1/1.27) = 173 not <150.

Add on Store TP from samurai sub, store TP from equip, and store TP and double attack from food you can gain a 27% boost to your TP, plus double attacks. You now have about 7.4 TP per hit, and swinging 12 times in that 30 seconds. Factor in TP from the previous WS (dancing edge, 5 hit for 11.4 TP full hit) and you have 100.2 TP, and that's without double or triple attack factored in.

Wait, so we have a thf/nin who is also subbing sam for +store tp and war for double attack? Since when did we get multiple sub jobs at once?

One other thing that was definately neglected in the arguement so far is the additional TP gained on ws's as a /nin. If you're talking about doing a ws every 30 seconds, you need to factor in the TP you have from usng the previous one. As a rng/nin, I get 15 TP from a full hit rampage, 11 as rng/thf. It's a 5 hit ws. I believe this to be true of all ws's, and dancing edge will typically return 13 TP to a dual wielding thf iirc.

Had you read the second thread I linked, you would have seen this argument had been addressed several times already. The point continualy raised is we are discussing the ability for thf to straight up get 100 tp in 30 seconds. Starting off at 20 tp and getting 80 tp in 30 seconds is not the problem being discussed.

As for your testing, I would really like to see it in game if you have a chance. I have tested it before in the past and found the 150 delay wall to indeed exist, which makes a very confusing situation. I have never got to test the 300 dual wield barrier personally however. The easier way to test if there is a difference in speed is counting how many attacks you do in a couple mins rather than how long it takes to reach your number of attacks (personal preference I suppose). Also, it would probably be advisable to test without thf or war jobs so as to avoid miscounting any triple/double attacks (not improbable considering how fast you will be attacking).



Anyway, let's theorize thf/nin can break 300 barrier for the heck of it. We will assume they have dw2 (15%) from sub and haste (12.5%) spell from whm with 2 of the 150 delay weapons.

That's 300*(1/1.275)=235 delay with 27.5% haste. 235 delay is an attack every 3.9167 seconds. In 30 seconds you will get 7.66 attacks which x 2 because it is dual wield results in 15.32 attacks (should be 14 because you can't get a partial dual wield attack, but I'm being forgiving). 15 attacks x 5 tp = 75 tp which is still 5 hits short of your 100 tp.

If we want to be even more extreme (and unrealistic) lets say the thf has the +27% haste gear you mentioned with two 150 delay weapons, dual weild 2, and haste spell. That's 54.5% haste. 300*(1/1.545)=194.17 new delay. 194.17/60 = attack every 3.236 seconds. In 30 seconds that is 9.27 attacks, 18 swings with dual weild which is only 90% tp. Even with such extreme haste, thfs do not reach it

Now before you raise the point of triple attack, I will point out I assumed 100% accuracy. If you want to argue 2 or 4 extra attacks every 30 seconds from triple attack, I will assume only 80-85% accu that parser results commonly show for thfs I party with while exping (that's with a brd). As you can tell, those two factors cancel each other out pretty well. I also feel generous in assuming the thf is using two 150 delay weapons while exping which is definitly not the norm. So don't try to use triple attack as your crutch.

Just be happy if a thf somehow get 100tp in 40-50 secs. That is accomplishment enough without exagerating and claiming 30 secs.

 

[Skaw]

Rones buddy, here I was thinking I was the only one in FFXI that knew how MMO Haste worked in regards to 100%. 8)

 

[Sneakypants]

Too much bitching, bragging, and math in this thread.
You either get 100% tp on IT MOBs in 30 seconds, regularly, or you don't.
1, 2, 3...Get going!

You can't make a claim like that and then go to verify it on TW-EP.
The way people are contesting that claim might have something to do with the bragging nature of it, followed by the way your "facts" just don't seem to stick or have credibility.

You say you can prove it, then prove it to those that care to find you in Vana'diel and watch you. See ya there... /thumbsdownfartnoise

 

[Stouter]

The haste spell lowers your spell recast by 1/6, assuming that it has the same numbers for melee attacks, this would make a 180 weapon (the highest delay of the 5 TP floor) swing at 150 delay

Again, read more of the thread. If you had, you would see that isn't how haste is calculated.

For example as Ruic explains it:
Make sure you understand that the haste formula isn't:
Delay * (100 - (Haste %/100)) = New Delay
It is
Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay

For example

If your haste % is 50, and your combined weapon delay was 500
500 * (1 - .5) = 250 (Wrong Formulea)
500 * (1/(1.5) = 333 (Right formulea)

If your haste % is 100, combined weapon delay was 500...
500 * (1-1) = 0 (Wrong formulea)
500 * (1/2) = 250 (Right formulea)

Not sure what this is arguing, my point was that the haste spell would be a 20% haste. Reversing your equation: 60 x (1/1+x) = 50. Blah blah, x = .20 (50 and 60 are spell recasts with and without haste)

thf can gain +27% haste from gear. That'll make any 220 or less delay weapon hit at that 150 minimum

Again, no. 220 * (1/1.27) = 173 not <150.

27% from gear, 20% from spell, that's 47%. 220/1.47 = 149.65.

Add on Store TP from samurai sub, store TP from equip, and store TP and double attack from food you can gain a 27% boost to your TP, plus double attacks. You now have about 7.4 TP per hit, and swinging 12 times in that 30 seconds. Factor in TP from the previous WS (dancing edge, 5 hit for 11.4 TP full hit) and you have 100.2 TP, and that's without double or triple attack factored in.

Wait, so we have a thf/nin who is also subbing sam for +store tp and war for double attack? Since when did we get multiple sub jobs at once?

There is food available that gives double attack, I never said thf/nin in my example, I said a thf with a single harpe and samurai sub.

One other thing that was definately neglected in the arguement so far is the additional TP gained on ws's as a /nin. If you're talking about doing a ws every 30 seconds, you need to factor in the TP you have from usng the previous one. As a rng/nin, I get 15 TP from a full hit rampage, 11 as rng/thf. It's a 5 hit ws. I believe this to be true of all ws's, and dancing edge will typically return 13 TP to a dual wielding thf iirc.

Had you read the second thread I linked, you would have seen this argument had been addressed several times already. The point continualy raised is we are discussing the ability for thf to straight up get 100 tp in 30 seconds. Starting off at 20 tp and getting 80 tp in 30 seconds is not the problem being discussed.

If you're talking ws'ing every 30 seconds, you should include the TP from the previous ws. Why does it matter how long it takes you to get 100 TP? What matters is how long it takes you to get 100 TP total, enough to WS. You're gonna start at 0 TP once every exp party. The other couple hundred times you're gonna start with TP from your previous ws. And I read your links, there was so much misinformation given in those posts that I stopped reading them before finding anything valid.

As for your testing, I would really like to see it in game if you have a chance. I have tested it before in the past and found the 150 delay wall to indeed exist, which makes a very confusing situation. I have never got to test the 300 dual wield barrier personally however. The easier way to test if there is a difference in speed is counting how many attacks you do in a couple mins rather than how long it takes to reach your number of attacks (personal preference I suppose). Also, it would probably be advisable to test without thf or war jobs so as to avoid miscounting any triple/double attacks (not improbable considering how fast you will be attacking).

I tested as brd/blm and nin/blm. Here's brd/blm with a HN and double march+2. 20 swings in 40 seconds. This means a 1/5 reduction in delay, which is the same reduction it gives to spell recasts. If you think my main or sub is a lie, I'll post another screenshot and show you that I don't have war high enough for double attack, or thf high enough for even sneak attack on stouter.

Anyway, let's theorize thf/nin can break 300 barrier for the heck of it.

No need to theorize, I've done it as nin/blm, why would thf be held by such a barrier?

We will assume they have dw2 (15%) from sub and haste (12.5%) spell from whm with 2 of the 150 delay weapons.

That's 300*(1/1.275)=235 delay with 27.5% haste. 235 delay is an attack every 3.9167 seconds.

Your numbers are wrong. If you're gonna talk about DW in terms of haste, and not lowered delay, then use haste numbers, not lowered delay numbers. My screwing around showed DW3 to be over 30% haste, which is the -25% delay reduction that sources claim it to be. Haste spell is 20% haste, not 12.5%.

 

[Skaw]

Then Haste(The Spell) is actually 40% haste.

Think of it like this, it applies to every MMO, Stouter.

In Single Player RPGS Haste will almost always be speed your characters up to half of their delay. Causing 2 moves for every original 1.

In MMOs, haste is broken up in percentages. Essentially, half of the displayed percentage is the actual applied delay cut. However, Full Haste is still half of your delay. Items that list Haste as "Haste+12%" is 12% of Haste. Not 12% Delay cut. Reaching 100%, Full, Haste will cut your action times in half. 200%, will not be 0, but rather 3/4 of your delay. Every listed 100%, it's cut by another applied half. Haste, much like every other stat in the game, has diminishing returns.

 

[Rones]

Not sure what this is arguing, my point was that the haste spell would be a 20% haste. Reversing your equation: 60 x (1/1+x) = 50. Blah blah, x = .20 (50 and 60 are spell recasts with and without haste)

I'm arguing that you can not claim haste to be a straight up 20% reduction in your delay. If that was true, like I already pointed out 100% haste would equal 0 delay which does not happen.

27% from gear, 20% from spell, that's 47%. 220/1.47 = 149.65.

Again no. If you are using that formulea, it is 12.5% as was posted in the other thread. I have tested this several times as whm with a staff, it is 12.5%.

There is food available that gives double attack, I never said thf/nin in my example, I said a thf with a single harpe and samurai sub.

Perhaps you should have mentioned that, but I also thought thfs needed sole sushi for accu+ or some +attk food to get the most out of their food. We are also discussing exp situations, meaning no thf is going to be subbing sam. Most likely nin, possibly war or rng.

If you're talking ws'ing every 30 seconds, you should include the TP from the previous ws

Hmmm, because ws do miss, especially if you are doing it every 30 seconds, meaning you will probably split up sa and ta and you will recall that ta can miss. Also, the origonal claim was they can gain 100 tp in 30 seconds. I can gain 300 tp in 5 seconds if you let me start with 295tp.

No need to theorize, I've done it as nin/blm, why would thf be held by such a barrier?

Had you read anything you would know why that is theorized. Your pic is nice, but chat logs are notorious for getting lagged. For that sort of sample, it would not be hard to have a couple extra attacks get reported late after you did your timing. This is a source of error in all these tests and why it is important to do it over a long span of time (such as 2-3mins). This reduces the impact of possible error at start and stop. Another way to reduce the error is to go off the visual hit (which can not be screenshoted however) as it does not tend to get backed up and lagged like the chat log likes to (although lag can still strike it). I would still like to personally see this. Also keep in mind that even if you do break the 150/300 delay barriers, you are not going to be fast enough to get 100 tp in 30 seconds as I explained in my previous post.

Your numbers are wrong. If you're gonna talk about DW in terms of haste, and not lowered delay, then use haste numbers, not lowered delay numbers. My screwing around showed DW3 to be over 30% haste, which is the -25% delay reduction that sources claim it to be. Haste spell is 20% haste, not 12.5%.

We are talking about dw2 not dw3 because thfs do not get dw3 when subbing nin. Again, had you taken 30 seconds to even scan that thread, you would have seen dw3 is indeed 25%. Also, why can I not talk about lowered delay? That is exactly what haste does. You start with your base haste, use the formulea I explained and get a new delay that can be used with the 60 delay = 1 sec rule.

Haste, much like every other stat in the game, has diminishing returns.

Correct, just to illustrate further from Ruic's math:
500 Delay with 10% haste = 454 delay (46 delay faster)
500 Delay with 20% haste = 416 delay (38 delay faster)
500 Delay with 30% haste = 384 delay (32 delay faster)
500 Delay with 40% haste = 357 delay (27 delay faster)
500 Delay with 50% haste = 333 delay (24 delay faster)
Similarly, 60% = 22 faster, 70% = 19 faster, 80% = 17 faster, 90% = 14 faster, 100% = 13 faster.

 

[Skaw]

Also, why can I not talk about lowered delay? That is exactly what haste does.

Actually, no it doesn't.

Lowered delay(DW/MA) sets your base delay lower, thus cutting your TP gain slightly.

Haste doesn't set your base delay lower, but rather speeds up based off of it, and doesn't cut your TP gain slightly.

 

[Rones]

Hmm, I wasn't aware dw changed your base delay for the tp calculations. However, I believe the rest still calculates out the same as in your new delay after haste effects is the same. I am refering to lowered delay as to how fast you are attacking after adding all the haste effects in.

 

[Stouter]

There is food available that gives double attack, I never said thf/nin in my example, I said a thf with a single harpe and samurai sub.

Perhaps you should have mentioned that, but I also thought thfs needed sole sushi for accu+ or some +attk food to get the most out of their food. We are also discussing exp situations, meaning no thf is going to be subbing sam. Most likely nin, possibly war or rng.

Add on Store TP from samurai sub, store TP from equip, and store TP and double attack from food

The arguement was what's possible, not what's practical. Even so, Thf/sam is viable in exp, in certain situations. Thf/rng, Thf/war, and even Thf/drk work the same way. Here's some food for you too:

Tenacle Sushi - HP +20 Dexterity +3 Agility +3 Mind -1 Accuracy +18% Double Attack +1%

If you're talking ws'ing every 30 seconds, you should include the TP from the previous ws

Hmmm, because ws do miss

Assassin is a level 60 thf job trait that makes TA a guaranteed hit if there is an alliance member between you and the mob, so you should never miss a ws as a thf.

Also, why can I not talk about lowered delay? That is exactly what haste does. You start with your base haste, use the formulea I explained and get a new delay that can be used with the 60 delay = 1 sec rule.

Lowered Delay = 1 - New Delay / Old Delay
Haste = Old delay / New Delay - 1

I never said you couldn't talk about it, I said you were using it incorrectly. You were interchanging lowered delay and total haste, they are not the same thing.

Hmm, I wasn't aware dw changed your base delay for the tp calculations.

Alright, pulled out some testing along with a DRK friend. Came to this conclusion.

DRK's TP: 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13....
DRK TP with Haste: 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13

My TP single hand: 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7...
My TP single hand with Haste Spell: 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7...
My TP Dual Wield: 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11...
My TP Dual Wield with Haste Spell: 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11...

So this goes to show that we're actually both wrong on the situation.

DW determines a new delay between two weapons, which gives it a new place on the TP curve. But haste spells, and other haste effects have absolutely no effect on TP.

This was in the 2nd thread you linked

No need to theorize, I've done it as nin/blm, why would thf be held by such a barrier?

Had you read anything you would know why that is theorized. Your pic is nice, but chat logs are notorious for getting lagged. For that sort of sample, it would not be hard to have a couple extra attacks get reported late after you did your timing.

How many screenshots will it take? I did this test and broke 150 delay hands down 5 times. Not once any any of those tests did I take more than 44 seconds to do 20 attacks (forgot my march +2 horn for a couple) You could argue that I hit /clock just before the first attack and just after the 20th, making the time in between them really the length of only 19.1 attacks, but that's less than 2.5 seconds difference if you can't go below 150 delay. You can't chalk up the remaining 8 seconds to chat lag.

The 150/300 delay floor is the theory here, and it's wrong. Hop on your bard, get out your faerie piccolo, get a hornetsneedle/beestinger and a rdm or whm friend. Start attacking something. Give yourself double march and ask for haste, and then tell me you're not attacking a whole lot faster.

 

[Rones]

Lowered Delay = 1 - New Delay / Old Delay
Haste = Old delay / New Delay - 1

I never said you couldn't talk about it, I said you were using it incorrectly. You were interchanging lowered delay and total haste, they are not the same thing.

What are you talking about? Where are you getting either of these formuleas? The first one makes no since when you try to use it, for example a 180 delay weapon reduced to 150 with all the haste effects would look like this. What
lowered delay = 1 - 150/180 = .1677 uh yeah that's useful.
Your second formulea makes just as little since.

The correct formulea is Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay

The arguement was what's possible, not what's practical.

Yes, it was what is possible in an exp situation which also requires you to do what is practical.

This was in the 2nd thread you linked

I was not denying or challenging it which is obvious if you had looked at the following sentence. I was pointing out that I am human and forget things too.

If I had a beestinger I would go out and test again. Last time I tested this was months ago when Ruic origonally posted the thread. Whether I hasted my friend using beestinger or not had no affect on their attack per minutes.

However, the entire 150/300 delay theory is a side issue. The origonaly point of this discussion was whether a thf could gain 100 tp in 30 seconds. Even without the min delay, they can not as I already showed and you have not disproved that.

 

[Nibble]

Assassin is a level 60 thf job trait that makes TA a guaranteed hit if there is an alliance member between you and the mob, so you should never miss a ws as a thf.

true yet.. slightly untrue?

you will never miss the initial strike of a WS.. but.. multi hit Ws's such as dancing edge which strike 5 times.. it *is* possibel to SATA DE and miss 4/5 attacks.. you will never miss all 5 attacks however (unless you arent behind the enemy or a party member, then it *is* possible but HIGHTLY unlikely)

ever read the text on dancing edge? MORE TP = MORE ACCURACY.. more accuracy = more of the strikes land.. more of the strikes land = more dmg.. and more of the strikes landing also = more TP per WS..

so.. while you CANT miss the 1st of 5 strikes with SATA DE.. you *CAN* miss the other 4..

this is the same for any multi-hit WS's.. if you SA >> WS.. you will always hit the 1st strike.. but you arent 100% accurate on the other strikes in that WS

~nib

 

[Stouter]

Lowered Delay = 1 - New Delay / Old Delay
Haste = Old delay / New Delay - 1

I never said you couldn't talk about it, I said you were using it incorrectly. You were interchanging lowered delay and total haste, they are not the same thing.

What are you talking about? Where are you getting either of these formuleas? The first one makes no since when you try to use it, for example a 180 delay weapon reduced to 150 with all the haste effects would look like this. What
lowered delay = 1 - 150/180 = .1677 uh yeah that's useful.

OK, time to do some math. 1 - 150/180 = .1667, or 16.67%. This means your time between swings would be lowered by 16.67%. This would not be a 16.67 percent haste. The numbers given to dual wield reduction are in this term, not in terms of haste. Now let's play with your equation:

Your second formulea makes just as little since.
The correct formulea is Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay

Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay
Delay = New Delay * (1 + (Haste %/100)
Delay/New Delay = 1 + Haste%/100
Delay/New Delay -1 = Haste %/100

Haste = Old delay / New Delay - 1

See how that's the same thing that I posted up above? I just made it a whole lot easier to calculate the haste percentage using delays, instead of setting it up to calculate the final delay using base delay and haste.

However, the entire 150/300 delay theory is a side issue. The origonaly point of this discussion was whether a thf could gain 100 tp in 30 seconds. Even without the min delay, they can not as I already showed and you have not disproved that.

Realistic configuration:

Thf/nin (DW2, 15% delay reduction)
Suppanomi (5% delay reduction)
Weapons Misercorde and Hornetsneedle (333 total delay, after DW 266)

Haste gear:
Ranp Harness - 4%
Swift Belt - 4%
Dusk Gloves - 3%
Panzer Mask - 2%
Bravo's Subligar - 2%
Dusk Leds - 2%
Haste Spell - 18% (recalculated this earlier today)

Total Haste - 35%

266 * 1/1.35 = 197 Delay

This is more than 9 dual swings every 30 seconds.

Rajas ring gives +5% TP bonus, so that 10% TP becomes 10.5%, and 9 double swings gives you 94.5 TP. Add TP from previous ws, TP from extra hits via triple attack, and subtract misses, and you will have 100 TP about every 30 seconds.

 

[Rones]

Thf/nin (DW2, 15% delay reduction)
Suppanomi (5% delay reduction)
Weapons Misercorde and Hornetsneedle (333 total delay, after DW 266)

Ok, you just did the same mistake again. You can not multiple your base delay of 333 times a straight 80% to get your new delay. If it worked like that, 100% haste would = 0 delay which is not true. The dual wield haste is applied for tp purposes, but after that it is just added in with all your other haste amount and calculated in the same formulea.

So in this case:
55% haste or 49.5% if treat haste spell as 12.5% which my tests show.
333(1/1.55)=214.9 delay, not 197 or 333(1/1.495)=222.7 delay if haste is 12.5%.

214.9/60 = attack every 3.58 seconds. 30 seconds / 3.58 seconds = 8.38 dual wield attacks, or 16.76 attacks (3 attacks short, maybe 2 with your +tp gear). This comes close, however with a total haste gear setup, your accu against ITs is going become attrocious. If a totally +accu thf only gets 80-85% accu, what do you think a thf with no +accu will get? I'll let triple attack make up for 15-20% miss rate, but not 40%+ :roll: So for exp situations, your setup fails twice (doesn't get enough tp and doesn't work at all in exp situations). Most of that gear is also out of reach of 99% of players (rajas ring and swift belt come to mind).