I just want to know...

[jyakotsu]

no edit sorry.... for the triple post

Jamal outside as the only Paladin let alone tank, with his thumb up his ass.**

 

[K. Ishitar]

Hollie does have serious commitment problems, I've given them like 2 or 3 chances and they always let me down, it is someone I will never play with in the future, but I won't persecute Kotsu because of the faults of his friend. I knew Kotsu first, we were good friends before I met Hollie and we remain good friends afterwards.

Hmm...wow all this happened while i was trolling around the site looking for something good to read? Rofl I need to get up with the times in the FB I didn't even notice this until I read the B@W forums.

But basically BoF pretty much nailed my intentions of letting Hollie coming along for the znm run, I trust Kotsu but I don't trust Hollie if Kotsu believes Hollie can exercise some simple self control then I'll give him a chance(just one). Jamal wasn't wrong for pointing it out that he has issues(just the way he went about it as usual) but I wasn't entirely estatic(sp, to say the very least) about how he acted, but I took his point into consideration.

Jamal: I also answered your 80-hour question as well with my concept of trust and people.


I suppose by this post we're derailing even moreso into the Event Scheduling events(or is that the current topic now?). If that's the case am I free to post pms as necessary? (@ Kotsu and Jamal).

I never concluded if it was ok to do so with or without permission but since we're mentioning contents I don't think it'd be so heinous.

 

[Xalioniaf]

There's really nowhere to go from the OP other than "yeah, I've dealt with assholes like that" or "no, you must have shit luck". This is an expansion of a previous experience lol.

 

[jamal]

Hmm...wow all this happened while i was trolling around the site looking for something good to read? Rofl I need to get up with the times in the FB I didn't even notice this until I read the B@W forums.

But basically BoF pretty much nailed my intentions of letting Hollie coming along for the znm run, I trust Kotsu but I don't trust Hollie if Kotsu believes Hollie can exercise some simple self control then I'll give him a chance(just one). Jamal wasn't wrong for pointing it out that he has issues(just the way he went about it as usual) but I wasn't entirely estatic(sp, to say the very least) about how he acted, but I took his point into consideration.

Jamal: I also answered your 80-hour question as well with my concept of trust and people.


I suppose by this post we're derailing even moreso into the Event Scheduling events(or is that the current topic now?). If that's the case am I free to post pms as necessary? (@ Kotsu and Jamal).

I never concluded if it was ok to do so with or without permission but since we're mentioning contents I don't think it'd be so heinous.

I've never had any problems with people posting what I write to them, publicly or privately. When something leaves my fingers, it's for everyone to see. I think you know that I'm not ashamed to make the entire situation public since I started out with it publicly.

Just be sure that you include 'everything' in the conversations, not bits and pieces. Due to my new awesome user-group I have a 20-message limit, which means I had to empty all pm's just to send one out.

 

[K. Ishitar]

no problem give me a bit, I prefer the full story anyways

 

[K. Ishitar]

This is pretty long fair warning just the first half of it so i don't mess this up

Took it to PM's, editting out my post as I said I would in our PM Khidir. You don't have anything to worry about because Hollie will most likely be along just to help the group. I know, at least, I am friends with everyone on that list. I would feel like a dick if I could make it and didn't help you guys out XD

Hollie was just along to help in my situation as well. You do have something to worry about

They played the same story before, then Kotsu NEVER showed, Hollie showed up for one event, lotted the best piece, and never showed up again.

Kotsu and Hollie then decided to countercamp us on ZNM's, taking their dynamis shell to fight the ZNM's hollie wanted rather than going with our group.

Believe me, you don't want to trust this group at all.

Next pm

Well I can't give a convincing stand on it since I'm interested to see how it pans out, but I try to give everyone a chance. If something happens it'll be my ass and I won't deny it.

Kotsu is cool with me I think it's fair to give him a chance and let him vouch for other people; maybe not objectively the smartest and tactical thing to do, but it just comes down to trust.

No offense to you but I thought you didn't like Gunnerx but eventually you let him into your ls? That seems like a sign of a second chance to me, but I could be wrong.

Kotsu was cool with me. I'm telling you not to let them in, because they're a level of shit along the level of gilbuyers and botters.

If we do come into contact with your group and they are there, do not expect me to let anyone hold back.

Letting them come with will drop my level of respect for you immensely as well. There's no ifs ands or buts about it, they're fucking trash.

Number 3...

"Don't expect me to let anyone hold back."?

Not sure what you mean there if you mean just popping nms we can work something out beforehand, your ls would be more experienced than our smaller group. If something does happen just /tell me immediately and I'll work it out with you and whoever is involved. Not let anyone hold back dangerously(though I doubt) sounds a lowline of mpking and stealing.

As far as the trash thing goes, we both know that we view things differently and act accordingly to our beliefs. I realize this is a potential gamble if this Hollie person is really so bad, but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

You take gambles regardless with anything, trusting and to have that trust returned is always a gamble of course it's higher or lower depending on the person. Like I said before if i goes downhill I'm not dodging blame. I plan to run this zeni very carefully just so there aren't any misunderstandings nor possible conflicts as I have read/heard about in the past.

To the respect part I honestly didn't think you did really. I don't like you or some of your methods but I respect your capability with the few things we've done together.

Hollie owes our ls 10M (the price of the Z.mail when he obtained it). Unless this piece is given back or we are fairly compensated, I will drop all rules at any encounter with him.

If this is not carefully handled, I may also be at liberty to change our plans should we see Hollie doing ZNM's. You will be caught in the crossfire for not heading my warnings.

Copying Kotsu so he's aware of the seriousness of what was done.

Number 4

The main problems with that is that your grudge is singular and has nothing to do with the other potential 11 people who want to have some fun. We can't refund 10mil to your ls from doing tier I-III, it's pretty crazy to stalk an entire group for one person's doing really.

I'm not saying you don't have the right be pretty pissed off but it's no reason to go out of the way to ruin our fun. You aren't the police or any sort of official authority here. I really thought you would be prideful enough not to stoop to stuff like that.

What rules do you have concerning other groups' ZNM runs assuming they're in the same area.

Lastly what would put you at liberty if this isn't carefully handled and what would you see as being carefully handled? Understand this isn't me conforming to your demands this is me trying to still understand your viewpoint as my impression is that you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

 

[K. Ishitar]

No. 5

The main problems with that is that your grudge is singular and has nothing to do with the other potential 11 people who want to have some fun. We can't refund 10mil to your ls from doing tier I-III, it's pretty crazy to stalk an entire group for one person's doing really.

I'm not saying you don't have the right be pretty pissed off but it's no reason to go out of the way to ruin our fun. You aren't the police or any sort of official authority here. I really thought you would be prideful enough not to stoop to stuff like that.

What rules do you have concerning other groups' ZNM runs assuming they're in the same area.

Lastly what would put you at liberty if this isn't carefully handled and what would you see as being carefully handled? Understand this isn't me conforming to your demands this is me trying to still understand your viewpoint as my impression is that you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

We have strict rules not to interfere with other LS's should we encounter. We will go elsewhere to do our pops, or offer help if they're there.

You accepting Hollie makes you just as guilty as him. I gave you fair warning, and you said you trusted him regardless.

I've been waiting for Hollie's name to pop up. He is the one blackballed, so this goes for any event. The fact that it's ZNM's that he chose gives me more options, and it's more of a slap in the face that he's been accepted to help after what he did to our shell. You accepting him means you're taking sides.

I'm an extremely patient person, but when someone fucks with my LS, I will do everything in my power to ensure there gaming experience is ruined.

No. 6 Yeah we're getting to the end of it though!(I think..)

The main problems with that is that your grudge is singular and has nothing to do with the other potential 11 people who want to have some fun. We can't refund 10mil to your ls from doing tier I-III, it's pretty crazy to stalk an entire group for one person's doing really.

I'm not saying you don't have the right be pretty pissed off but it's no reason to go out of the way to ruin our fun. You aren't the police or any sort of official authority here. I really thought you would be prideful enough not to stoop to stuff like that.

What rules do you have concerning other groups' ZNM runs assuming they're in the same area.

Lastly what would put you at liberty if this isn't carefully handled and what would you see as being carefully handled? Understand this isn't me conforming to your demands this is me trying to still understand your viewpoint as my impression is that you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

We have strict rules not to interfere with other LS's should we encounter. We will go elsewhere to do our pops, or offer help if they're there.

You accepting Hollie makes you just as guilty as him. I gave you fair warning, and you said you trusted him regardless.

I've been waiting for Hollie's name to pop up. He is the one blackballed, so this goes for any event. The fact that it's ZNM's that he chose gives me more options, and it's more of a slap in the face that he's been accepted to help after what he did to our shell. You accepting him means you're taking sides.

I'm an extremely patient person, but when someone fucks with my LS, I will do everything in my power to ensure there gaming experience is ruined.

Well indirectly yes, I'm trusting Kotsu to trust Hollie. Yeah I am taking sides since you're pretty much forcing me into a wall here, you have no sort of hold on me or my actions. Be the bigger man and let it go. I might not have been in a situation like yours but there are times when you just have to step back and look at the situation. We're getting heated over an arguement over a game(which is pretty funny) over something where the milk's spilled and wiped away and one of us can't get that nasty smell from it spoiling out of our noses.

You just need to let it go, revenge is a pretty twisted pathway it's not worth your time nor your concern to worry over. Maybe you've been patient to not say anything(kinda suprised you didn't actually) but you're being close minded about how to handle this. It's something that is going to happen regardless of your approval. Like I said before it's a funny thought watching my social ls and others mpking me and my round up group but it's pretty sad. Be a bigger man, what we let go only makes us stronger in the end.

I'm not saying Hollie is some fantastic guy either I just want to kill some monsters get a few drops and call it a day(well after a few runs). I'm not condoning his actions of stealing but I'd rather give a person a chance before passing judgment. If he's really as bad as you're making it out to be then I can either boot him and/or prove it's his fault or take the blame entirely.

Letting it go let's him win. I gave you ample warning and you're deciding against it when the simple way to end it is say no.

Kotsu already said that he wouldn't have Hollie come. That's good enough for me. But until we receive compensation for this, anywhere Hollie is, I will make it a living hell if it's ZNM related.

The video-game excuse won't fly. The amount of time my people have spent doing this means they are the one's who should have the spoils. If someone got your paycheck after an 80 hour work week, you'd be pretty upset and ensure it got back right?

Suppose the courts find some technicality and can't force him to give it back, you can't tell me you'd just drop it.

My last pm concerning this part no response but another section of my thread brought up another series of pms

That's your problem, you don't want to let something go. I'm saying that you shouldn't drag your shell into this just on the leader's whim. You always confirm what you plan to do with your members before making a decision(and a pretty damn important one here). So all of them wants to fry us for something that happened that had nothing to do with us? I highly doubt that and I'd expect better.


I already know I'm taking a risk here, you could at least let me fall flat on my ass before threatening me with the opportunity of ruining my run like hollie did for you...

Well wait isn't that on the same level but what you're doing is on a grander scale?

And maybe I have some sort of idea how you feel, because I had to watch someone get something I fully believed they didn't deserve but you know it was the right choice because the leaders at the time didn't just weigh one person's opinion too heavily over what they have seen so far, which would be no sly behavior.

Well this was actually twice with the same person but you know I manned up and I let it go because some random dick getting x piece of gear isn't worth the extra stress.

 

[K. Ishitar]

my fault there there's a response there's quite a few of these hot tamales so give me a bit of time

No. 7 continued

That's your problem, you don't want to let something go. I'm saying that you shouldn't drag your shell into this just on the leader's whim. You always confirm what you plan to do with your members before making a decision(and a pretty damn important one here). So all of them wants to fry us for something that happened that had nothing to do with us? I highly doubt that and I'd expect better.


I already know I'm taking a risk here, you could at least let me fall flat on my ass before threatening me with the opportunity of ruining my run like hollie did for you...

Well wait isn't that on the same level but what you're doing is on a grander scale?

And maybe I have some sort of idea how you feel, because I had to watch someone get something I fully believed they didn't deserve but you know it was the right choice because the leaders at the time didn't just weigh one person's opinion too heavily over what they have seen so far, which would be no sly behavior.

Well this was actually twice with the same person but you know I manned up and I let it go because some random dick getting x piece of gear isn't worth the extra stress.

If we're judging people here, why don't you listen to what your problem is. Rather than listening to me, you decided to try to be nice and let someone in. I do not forget things, because I'm always able to make things square.

I asked my LS today what they thought of what I was doing. Everyone said "Get back the fucking Z.mail"

You mentioned an eye for an eye leaves the entire world blind. Here's another cheesy saying "A friend of my enemy is my enemy"

I gave you the benefit of the doubt to make the right decision, but having this person help you on ZNM's is a direct slap in my face. When you get to tier III's, you're probably going to want help and advice. I'd be more than willing provided Hollie isn't there.

Pur is also asking about tier IV's. Wiki is no where near good information on these. Considering I've devoloped strategies on all 3 from the ground up, there is no better resource to talk to.

I can be a valuable asset, or a curse. You are right, karma will play a role in your decision, because I will make it immediately known whether you made the right decision or not.

It's not too late to right the ship, all you gotta do is tell them you're not interested. I'd even be willing to support you with people from my ls if Hollie is not there.

You aren't going to get back the mail by screwing us over, it's really that obvious lol. Asking yeah their opinion I'm sure just like you they have the right to be mad at Hollie but what he does and what I do is none of their concern unless it' directly infringes upon your shell.

You're definitely right about info though wiki I personally believe can't give enough info for some of the tier I's or strategies for that matter but you can overly on what's being told without fighting a mob then go into that mob's fight and lose because there are somethings you have to experience firsthand. I realize we're drawing pretty important lines here and that I'm listening to what you're saying which is why I directly told Kotsu that I'm relying on our trust to prove Hollie worthy of running with us or anyone.

I also made clear that if he doesn't plan to screw us over in any way shape or form as well as others(presently) then he can join. I believe in second chances and I don't regret giving them now maybe there are bad seeds to be found still but I not abandoning my policy so soon as I have seen improvement from people because of it.

I'll be back in a bit to talk more if you wish, tending to some rl stuff

No. 8 (this starts the different part of the znm thread response)

Nothing we're doing is with your ls. I have respect for quite a few people in that ls. What you plan to do is bad karma against you because you're doing it on your own will(eye for an eye makes everyone blind). You also decided this tactic on my intention of bringing Hollie along(who's helping at the moment....? how does that translate for you?) to ruin our run.

I might say you decided this immediately unless you magically contacted every member of SnB and convinced them in just a few minutes that it was time to settle one of your grudges(which is rightful to be mad essentially, but not to drag further). You're the leader and you're choosing your own path so yes what happens from what you intentionally do is your karma just like me letting Hollie come is my karma.

Accept it and move on, we aren't making ourselves feeling better with these conflicts because they shouldn't be. I can't control a person nor can you; stop trying for your own shell's sake.

I don't have to contact people to know their feelings on Hollie because I see them everyday.

You're doing the equivalent of inviting Grandmaster to a dynamis run despite being warned by the leader of loldynamis.

What the fuck are you implying with stop trying for your own shell's sake? I hope I'm misinterpreting this, because that really fucking pissed me off.

And yeah I think that's it

 

[jamal]

You can definitely see where my focus is. Getting back at hollie. Your choice to avoid the drama could have been quite simple, I wouldn't fuck with you, would actually help you, if Hollie wasn't there.

Did I go overboard? A bit. Do I stand by my convictions? Yup.

Would I force my ls to do this? Nope
If a LS member asked me not to do it would I give it up? Sure

My lsmembers know they can talk to me about anything. No one told me to stop. Neisan and I discussed it, and I told him because I knew he was good friends with you I'd not give him any hard feelings if he helped. I told him in turn though to make sure you recognized the seriousness of what was being done.

Am I an asshole? Yup, never said anything different.
But I'll never double back on my convictions, it's plain as day why I now dislike Kotsu...his relationship and defense of Hollie. Were he to set things straight, I'd have no issues with him whatsoever.

 

[K. Ishitar]

hmm...there should be another response clarifying the last response of the bottom part of the pm but i can't find it currently

 

[jyakotsu]

hmm...there should be another response clarifying the last response of the bottom part of the pm but i can't find it currently

I could definitely say that if anyone invited Grndmaster into their shell after that whole "fucking hellstorm over by stealing RDM AF" would be a slap in most anyone's face.

 

[K. Ishitar]

i agree but what I was doing wasn't anything of high organization(ie starting a linkshell) just a few zeni runs and end at tier IIIwhich to me is just like swift/dm/etc. runs only a couple times more. This is something on a smaller scale.

I also find it interesting that you declared that you would ruin our run but then decided not to. You said you stand by your convictions and you won't back down conversely you mention if another member asked you to give it up you would just let it go without another question?


Maybe that's you being considerate to others opinions or you being hypocritical but that's pretty vague there.

 

[jamal]

Miros asked me not to for the good of qcdn.

That's when I decided to help you guys out and give suggestions.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

Miros asked me not to for the good of qcdn.

That's when I decided to help you guys out and give suggestions.

Off-Topic: Was the "Sanctioned User" status brought about just for you? It seems like it.

 

[jamal]

Yup

 

[StanDarsh]

Off-Topic: Was the "Sanctioned User" status brought about just for you? It seems like it.

I was actually kind of wondering if the 'Sanctioned User' status applied to Sixpack as well. Does anyone know?

 

[Makelith]

Well considering that Jamal is barely only above a ban, i think logging on to another account to circumvent his current status, would only make things worse.

 

[Methodtsi]

Just bringing this unclosed item over here since it is posted in a closed thread and is referring to a sub-discussion only. Hope that is ok since it was discussed in here originally.

So why get involved in a flame if you discourage your members from doing it? Set a better example. And what does SnB's members' thoughts about the system have to do with anything? Are you writing a documentary? They're in the shell and they're participating, so obviously they agree with it. What more do you need?

I am sorry you felt this was a negative attack on your policies. As I stated later in the conversation, I agree that they knew what the policy was when they accepted the pearl and the situation was indeed bad times. My post was a revelation about the whole issue that I was unaware of and was not meant in a negative fashion but more as a request for how the members felt about it. It was brought up in a public forum and was just another topic of discussion that was more positive than "I hate Jamal". In short, yes I am writing a documentary about shell policies because if a positive discussion can be made about the subject, maybe another shell can adopt it.

I need nothing more and I am sorry you felt this was condemning toward your policies and an example of negative communication for our LS.

Thanks,
Method

 

[K. Ishitar]

Miros asked me not to for the good of qcdn.

That's when I decided to help you guys out and give suggestions.

My head is a bit fuzzy from this stuff proceeding so fast...

But didn't you say that if a ls member asked you to back off a serious choice(like our scenario) you would do it without hesistation. Now is Miros a member of SnB if he led you to your sudden "change of heart" after flamebaiting my thread? I feel that this is pretty intentional because many provokes were made at my people after the first time of me asking for the conversation to end when you could have knowingly sent me more pms instead of taking the issue to my thread which later had to be cleaned(essentially about 3 pages removed) from of flamebaiting?

Kotsu did try to make it up to your shell for something he did have no control over but you denied this priviledge as well to him.

 

[Audino]

I am sorry you felt this was a negative attack on your policies. As I stated later in the conversation, I agree that they knew what the policy was when they accepted the pearl and the situation was indeed bad times. My post was a revelation about the whole issue that I was unaware of and was not meant in a negative fashion but more as a request for how the members felt about it. It was brought up in a public forum and was just another topic of discussion that was more positive than "I hate Jamal". In short, yes I am writing a documentary about shell policies because if a positive discussion can be made about the subject, maybe another shell can adopt it.

I need nothing more and I am sorry you felt this was condemning toward your policies and an example of negative communication for our LS.

Thanks,
Method

I didn't think it was a negative attack. It seemed pretty misplaced asking questions like that in such a heated thread and I really didn't see why it was a relevant topic. If you really want to have a positive discussion about a shells policies and rules why use the Flameboard, the place you discourage your members from, as the appropriate forum? Its just something that seems better off discussed elsewhere, preferably in a less negative environment.