I wish people encouraged others to have fun....

Not talking to you Mishaela just making a comment on the tone of "Summoners shouldn't have to be main healers" present in the first post :D

Who the hell says I don't like being a main healer in the right set-up?
 
For a mage, meleeing is always putting melee above mage duties. You can't rest while meleeing. You can cast admittedly. But you can't rest. And therefore you're giving up MP. Yes, sometimes you can't rest for 20 seconds straight. but in reality, you can squeeze 20 seconds in almost always. Specially if you heal the tank to full, or if it's a paladin, they heal themselves some for hate while you rest. Sometimes there's an emergency and you have to get up, but usually no, no you don't. Usuaully you can actually get multiple ticks off.. specially if you have a rdm/whm who's standing up anyway so can get the status affects when you're down.

Now... as for the idea of not being main healer... how to spend your MP... well, if you're a damage dealer, as much damage as possiable. If spamming attack BPs isn't enough MP drain to drain you before you have to stop resting to feel the lose.. well... I just don't see it.. trust me you can find some MP wasting attack BPs.


And to Sabia: Play a little closer attention, this argument is about the iquestion if SMN meleeing is acceptable or not. Not the avatar meleeing, the actual SMN. What do you think about that?
 
Sorry to butt in (as you were asking Sabia...)
But you can't rest while you melee, no...but you can't rest while summoning/casting magic, either...but you could very well melee/heal at the same time, and simply disengage/rest as needed all the same =\

I do see where y'coming from...but if the outcome in the end is more or less great, I just...don't see the problem... =\
I know, I'm stupid that way, probably won't ever figure that out. *shrug*
 
Firestreak said:
And to Sabia: Play a little closer attention, this argument is about the iquestion if SMN meleeing is acceptable or not. Not the avatar meleeing, the actual SMN. What do you think about that?
Click to expand...

Oh I've read the whole argument but I was responding to the first page not the last 3.

As far as the summoner meleeing thing goes I've read posts about it being plausable. Some SMNs equip up with Acc & Attack gear and melee with carbuncles and stuff like that, actually churning out some good damage, never seen it, never done it but I've heard it's pretty cool. Same way I've heard Summoners being good DDs with the Skill Chain/Magic Burst aspect of the job...both I've not been successful with or havn't tried.

I'm far too fragile to even dare walking up to a mob....with 465 HP at level 55 and the defense of a wet paper bag...factor in some shitty luck with deaths I personally wouldn't do it myself.

Frankly there are so many different styles of play in this game that people figure out though. Who would of thought that a NIN/BLM would be any good? Someone tried and it worked out quite well. If Mishaela says she never had any downtime and didn't get hit by AOEs I really don't see anything wrong with it....

It's not personally the way I'd play but it seems everybody plays the job so differently and somehow manage to make it work.

I'd just say - don't party with her if you dissagree with her play style and she shouldn't party with you. 8)
 
One thing that you've neglected to mention, Fire, is that you have less of a time to react to emergencies if you rest. If you're resting and suddenly the tank needs healing, you have to stand up before you can start casting, which is an extra second or two before the tank gets healed. And it's possible for something to go very wrong very quickly sometimes. Ever see a mob get two crits on a double attack? That's quite a lot of HP gone, especially if the mob does a quick damage WS right after that. And if your tank was already in the yellow because you were resting MP instead of healing... well, you've got a tank that's just about to die, and it's possible he'll fall over before you can get off a cure. Of course, that doesn't happen often, but it can happen.

I seem to remember an argument about the usefulness of Cure 4 in one of the other SMN-focused threads on this board. I don't remember who, but someone said that even after the tank gets put in the red from a sudden strong attack, he'd rather do two Cure 3's than a Cure 4, as Cure 3 has a shorter cast time. Well, all of a sudden you've got a delay time that's longer than Cure 4's cast time (standing up + the spell's cast time), yet it still heals the same HP as Cure 3.

Mish: Fire's saying that he likes to try to sneak a quick tick or two of resting mid-fight while he's still the main healer. Unfortunately, you can't do that if you're trying to melee the mob. That's why he's saying melee is a no-no for main healers.

Sabia: Yeah, SMNs can do some impressive damage with SCs or MBs (not both at the same time, though). The fact that they've got 1-2 BPs in every single box in the chart means that they can do any SC at just about any time (although they can't buff until the BP timer is up again), or they can MB for decent damage in the later levels (600-ish damage from the level 4 nukes, depending on if they have the avatar melee to build TP before unleasing the spell). Heck, if they somehow build enough TP by themselves, they can solo a SC... hm, maybe I'm on to something here... SMN/SAM, anyone? :P
 
Sethala said:
Sabia: Yeah, SMNs can do some impressive damage with SCs or MBs (not both at the same time, though). The fact that they've got 1-2 BPs in every single box in the chart means that they can do any SC at just about any time (although they can't buff until the BP timer is up again), or they can MB for decent damage in the later levels (600-ish damage from the level 4 nukes, depending on if they have the avatar melee to build TP before unleasing the spell). Heck, if they somehow build enough TP by themselves, they can solo a SC... hm, maybe I'm on to something here... SMN/SAM, anyone? :P
Click to expand...

Please don't say that :roll:

I can solo a SC with carbuncle but I'm not using Carbuncle in an xp party unless I'm pulling. I know SMNs can SC/MB but after trying this myself I've come to the decision you should pick up a BLM/THF/RNG/DRK/SAM as they would be able to churn out better damage than I would. Can Summoners do damage? Yes...can everyone else do better damage than a pre 70 summoner? More than likely.
 
Well, it depends on the party...

A SMN/WHM can act as a skillchain master.
A SAM/WAR can also act as a skillchain master.

A SMN/WHM can be a party's main healer.
A SAM/WAR can be a respectable DD.

Both jobs can do both abilities in the same party.

To recap:

SMN/WHM : Main Healer :: SAM/WAR : Damage Dealer

(or in English, a SMN/WHM can be a main healer -and- pop out skillchains, just like how a SAM can be a DD -and- pop out skillchains).

Basically, nothing says you can't be a party's main healer -and- still pop out a skillchain once in a while. It'll be a little MP-intensive (and shouldn't be attempted unless someone else can cover-heal while you rest MP), but it can do a decent ammount of extra damage. Also, time shouldn't really be an issue - if you've got enough time to rest for a tick of MP mid-fight, you've got enough time to summon an avatar, use an attack BP, then dismiss it.

Also, on a side note: When I said they can do impressive damage, I meant for dealing damage on top of being a main healer. Compared to other nukers, it's hardly anything.
 
Unfortunately this is practicality vs theory. I was the one who said I'd rather do cure 3 than 4 and I stick by it. At the same time, I've NEVER had a tank die because I couldn't get up fast enough from resting. I HAVE however had people die because after 3 or 4 hours partying it gets harder to pay attention to what's going on. It happens when I warn I want to break and people ask me to stay, basically, but it's rare. It's much more efficient the way I do it... and.. well, the only downside is you must paste your eyes on the screen at all times, unless your party is taking very minimal damage.

But seriously, sometimes I spend most of my time resting... I get up, do a cure 5 and sit my ass back down. Sometimes I have to get up, but most of the time I don't for a few ticks(mainly depending on status affects).
 
Firestreak said:
I won't mind main healing, but if you so much as hint that I'm not allowed to use my avatars for a lil more than blood pacting, that I can't add even a lil damage to the mob, well, my sentiments are,

Screw you.
Click to expand...

Do the world a favor then and don't play SMN. If you are dead set on being a damage dealer why not just stick with a job well designed for it?
Click to expand...

Just got back from swimming and read this, you completely missed my point, are you going to tell me that Summoners are not under any circumstances allowed to keep there summons out for even a little while after they blood pacted? In that case, do me a favour, and never invite me to your party, under ANY job.
 
Sethala said:
A SMN/WHM can act as a skillchain master.
A SAM/WAR can also act as a skillchain master.

A SMN/WHM can be a party's main healer.
A SAM/WAR can be a respectable DD.
Click to expand...

A WHM/BLM can use cure
A PLD/WAR can use cure

Would you invite a PLD to keep your party alive?
 
Sabia said:
A WHM/BLM can use cure
A PLD/WAR can use cure

Would you invite a PLD to keep your party alive?
Click to expand...

I always do, Sabs. He takes the damage and risks death so the rest of us don't have to. Thus, he's keeping us alive.

I know, I know, not what you meant. But hey, you're twisting my words, so I'm just returning the favor :P

Seriously, I think you're missing my point. You wouldn't invite a SMN -just- to do SCs, you invite them to main heal and do SCs on the side. Similar to what you do for a SAM - invite them to damage and do SCs on the side. Essentially, a SMN/WHM, in the right party setup, is a SAM that main heals between SCs instead of one that deals melee damage between SCs. I know, I know, it's a crappy comparison.

Now, I know one of you at least is gonna point out that once your SC partner is ready, they might have to wait up to a minute for your BP timer to be done for them to SC with you.

Let me rephrase that: even though your skillchain partner has enough TP, they might have to wait up to a minute as you can't SC if there's time remaining on your BP cooldown timer.

Sounds like a bad thing, right? Like, no one would ever want that sort of SC setup, right? Try replacing BP with SATA and reread that.

(In other words: having to wait for the SMN's BP timer to be up is no different than having to wait for a THF's SATA timer to be up.)
 
May be a crappy comparison, but, unfortunately, it a correct one. :evil:
 
There's a few major differences really.

The accuracy of BP WS are horrible.
The accuracy of SATA is 100%.

SATA's timer is based off when you activate it.
BP timer based off when it goes off.

A good THF is usually already ready with SATA when TP is ready because 1 use at start of fight and then recharging during TPing... or chain at start of fight.
A good SMN is usually cautious with BPs because every time you use one you have less MP in your pool to heal with for the chain.

A THF should always SATA every fight.
A SMN should not always BP every fight.

SATA takes no MPs.
BPs take shitloads of MP.

SATA has one clear purpose.
BPs are weak, shitty, worthless damage except for like 1 or 2, which are still not worth the MP... and some non damage BPs are really useful buffs.
 
Sethala I was referring to your post about a SMN/SAM.

A SMN/SAM can not main heal as they have no cure spells.
 
Ugh... this is an ugly arguement. You both have good points and bad points. You can't be entirely right or wrong when encompassing a debate over how to play a job in entirety.

Please stop.

On a side note:

AOE Stoneskin has recently saved my ass for the FOURTH time in six levels. :lol:
 
Mishaela said:
As WHM, I really preferr NIN tanks, because post-60, literally the only good PLD I've seen is Veteran, whom was so good I could melee without any risk to the party. If other cases, if I found myself lacking mp or just causing unecessary +TP to the mob, I would stop meleeing, period. Same goes for when I'm on SMN. *Shrug* Its fun to do extra stuff, yes, but not-fun to know you're a hinderance. People who whine that they "can't do what they want" should aknowledge this.
Click to expand...

:oops:

I saw a comment you made earlier saying that you preferred NIN tanks, so before I gave ya some crap (in a kidding way, of course :wink:), I performed a search to see if you ever mentioned me, and you did!:shock:

Makes a rolly-polly PLD feel all warm and chivalrous inside . . . gettin' the urge to XP again.:D

Thanks again Mish.^^
 
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