Intelligent Design?

[Kat]

I don't doubt the Bible. I doubt it's the word of God, I doubt it was written by God through people, rather it was written by people to serve thier needs.

I simply can not believe in a superior being because the intelligence required to come up with something like Earth would have prevented all the shit from happening.


Religion, no matter what kind, was created by people who at the time had no way to comprehend their environment. Their only explanation for what was happening around them is to attribute it to higher powers. Prometheus they say brought the fire down to man. Is that what happened, or was it a lightning strike, a lightning strike like the ones that set Alaska on fire every summer?


If you don't think there were world wars, earthquakes, hurricanes, children disrespecting their parents, children turning away from the God Almighty, famine, etc. before WWI, then you will need to pick up a History book.

Children disrespecting their parents is somewhat newer, as children do not depend on their parents as much as they did in the past they become less respectful, and often even resentful as they realize their parents lived a meaningless life of everyday America instead of reaching out and try to be better.

War is as old as human history, natural disasters are as old as the Earth itself. Dunno what to say, but the book is clearly wrong on that one.


Not to wake sleeping dogs, but if you are right about all of your beliefs, then ..., you will not make it into Heaven. This isn't me judging, it's me stating facts based on your belief. I am curious how you view this issue.

Bolded Part A. Funny you just signaling out America here. What about the children in the rest of the world? How many children are homeless cuz of loser parents in Europe, Iran, China, Japan, etc. What makes a father who drives a truck for a living any less of a father than one who picks rice for a living? Or a father who makes ale/beer for a living? Or a father who is a fisherman? Who are you to judge what is a "meaningless" occupation/life?

My own father worked in a damn factory (Furnas Electric) for many years before he completed and got certified as a maintenance mechanic. My dad has since worked at such places as AllSteel ('til there were only 3 people left in the damn building cuz they moved AllSteel to Mississippi), General Mills in St. Charles, (til they did away with the St. Charles division), and my father was/is good enough to where he has since been transferred to the General Mills in West Chicago. And my dad makes an excellent wage. Just because my dad gets his hands dirty vs. someone like you who sits back in an office doesn't make you any better than him.

My husband drives a truck for a living. Now think about this: everything you own comes by truck. EVERYTHING. And most truck drivers get treated like crap. People would not have what they have if it weren't for the truck drivers moving it across the country. Sure, it may come by plane, boat, train, but eventually at some point in time, it ends up being shipped by truck.

Bolded Part B. To give feedback on this, (cuz I believe I know where you're getting at), I was raised as long as you don't sin against the Holy Spirit there will be a place in Gods Kingdom for you. Us mere mortals are all sinners, God knows this and forgives us. Hence why Jesus came to Earth.

And I will also add what Anttaru wrote:

I am aware that God made Moses Vanish, and deep research indicates the Seven Books of Moses was removed from the Bible. It's roumored these missing parts of the Bible had excercises and what is described as mythical powers to be put into practice. We have proven as a whole not to be tame enough to obey the 10 commandments even when high on alert of Gods presence, God will not have us be anything like what he made Moses into. Who knows what kind of power this knowlege would have granted us, maybe even throw in a how you say telekinesis ( I wish ). Yes sir Moses was different, and i'd like to think of him as a prototype of what we could have been as a species. Many would say no, but we crave power, and the currupt side is with power, temptation is ever increasingly stronger.

*EDIT*

I don't doubt the Bible. I doubt it's the word of God, I doubt it was written by God through people, rather it was written by people to serve thier needs.

Please tell me what these people, who were slaves of Jerusalem (sp?) when the writings were first written thousands of years ago, had to gain besides being mocked and beaten by saying that these were the words of God if it was not so?

I simply can not believe in a superior being because the intelligence required to come up with something like Earth would have prevented all the shit from happening.

So you'll believe a flash of lightning, fire, whatever is what eventually evolved into the human being's we are vs. God/Superior Being creating us? Ummmm kay, if it makes better sense to you to believe that way, more power to ya. But don't judge us who believe differently.

 

[Bigboy]

Religion is a crutch for the weak. Is it any wonder that a religion spreads best in times of struggle? The most adamant followers of the Christain faith lived lifes of strugle, shame and pain. Rape, famine, prejudice, rejection, disfigurement, and ineptitude often accompany the Christain zealot. I have never met a more deeply religious person as 1 accompanied by some form of hardship in their past. Adamant beliefs create a rift between a person and the society around them. For some reason the one's who have suffered the most hold their all knowing god closest, disreguarding the fact that they were left high and dry when they needed it most. Prayer is meaningless, as anything more than telling someone you hope things get better soon.

Christianity is one of the most perplexing plagues to spread throughout the known world. The members seek betterment, but cast down others. They seek acceptance, but shun gays, muslims, and even other dominations within their own church. The Christian church can be seen as one of the greatest models of hypocracy in action today. Not that being told you'll recieve vigins upon an honorable death is much better, but at least they recognize lust as a driving force within their believers, and not a shameful act of sin, punishable by eternal damnation, reguardless of wether it goes against the natural drives your god has given you.

Athiesm is one of the most accepted beliefs in the world. And by accepted I mean, no one looks at you like you are some kind of freakjob if you tell them you don't much care how you came to exist. No one can oppress you for a lack of belief. The worst harrasment you will recieve as an athiest is some denomination of the Christain faith trying to convert you. Evangelism is the most bothersome act towards the public a Christain can attempt.

A little background:
Raised in the Episcopal Church. While a teenage I lived with my grandparents for 5 years. My grandmother finished her schooling and became a pastor. Not once was I ever forced or told I had to goto church. I attended on my own until I was 16 and was never chastized for leaving. I have many friends who still attend that very church. This church allowed a Lesbian pastor, who is a very kind woman, run the show. As far churches go, this is THE BEST and the truest to it's faith that I have ever attended or heard of. I have read the bible cover to cover and actually studied the text in great detail along with my grandmother while she was being schooled to become an ordained minister. I know the ins and outs of Christianity down to the smallest detail, and was mentored not only by my grandmother, but the current and previous pastor of the church I attended.

In short, I am not just some heathen taking out my aggressions on a religion I know nothing about and have little interest in. The truest purpose of religion, as a whole, is a crutch. Think of it as your mother kissing you scrapped elbow. People have such a problem with letting something just act as an impliment of comfort that they have to make outragous claims of the supernatural. What's the matter? Someone can't be kind becuase it is in their nature? It has to be attributed to some kind of supernatural being? Being told a person is kind isn't good enough any more, we declare them saints. Religions original purpose was to set forth a set of rules to better a society, while not replacing the active government in place at the time.

Jews were ruled by Egyptains, they held no form of government on their own and laws were only to be decree'd by Egyptians in the service of the Pharoah. The safest, if not only way to make laws within the laws would be to declare the commandments from a higher being, and not just some being that could be killed like the Pharoah. To create a set of laws that would govern beyond the originator's death there would have to exist a being that was untouchable, and intangible. With no physical description there would be no one to hunt. With no physical body there could be no death to their leader. It was the most convenient and intelligent way to spread morals and a code of conduct that would far outlast them.

 

[Reishu]

Anttaru, it's my belief that God doesn't intervene really (especially in regards to things that are our own fault) because he wants us to grow on our own, to be able to stand on our own feet intellectually and take a stand equal in quality to God's. If God didn't want an equal when he created Adam and taught Adam many of his secrets, his culture, etc, then what -did- he want? A mindless servant? We're too capable of too much to just be a biological robot. This points to a purpose of Intellectual Design of creating a race which is capable of none other than becoming gods.

Kat points out that as long as we don't sin against the Holy Ghost, we have a place in God's kingdom. I like to think that God's kingdom in its most basic form is a mental status; where there's much peace of mind. For us to distupt that peace of mind, we have to go against something which we know to be true. (this correlates with passages mentioning the Holy Ghost as a messenger.)

Sculli, you say that war is as old as human history, but i'd like to point out that peace is as old as human history too. Biological records point to Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens living side by side; even though they were two different species. What about the marriage of man and woman? that's also a very old tradition to promote peace.

Even if everything good in the world wasn't attributed to god at any extent, any visionary mystic will tell you that the world has much more to it than the endless drone of everyday life; much more behind its structure (a more refined structure), regarding why things happen the way they do.

I personally have designed devices which measure the influence of this background structure; and I know that there is proof as to its existence; as meaningless as other people try to make it, I'll still stand by my proof.

Anttaru, I'd like to refer to one of my posts early in the topic regarding pigment in the mitochondira. I can't dig it up right now to quote because I have to run to work soon, but it's there.

When the mitochondiral pigment is structured appropriately (due to mental influence on the mitochondiral pigments aligning the mitochondira with a certain frequency which the background structure of the universe also shares), this will cause the energy processed by the mitochondira to begin to emit a glow due to the efficiency involved. This has been scientifically observed by my grandfather (now dead), but he never published his work because it would disrupt the science/religion status quo too much.

This would make Moses' hair appear white, and would also make his entire body emit light (refers to when Moses came down off the mountain). This is by far not the only account concerning someone who could not be met by the general populace for days because people would react the same way as with Moses (they reacted with fear).

I think we've hijacked the thread long enough. In summary, I defend Intellectual Design because it more accurately describes (compared to dumbed-down accounts of Adam) the means by which God created us. We came from the same ancestors as apes, yes. However we are capable of wonderous things, and that is no accident.

 

[Kat]

Again, I do not believe in "churches". They are all a joke. Do you know why the Episcopal Church was created?

Answer: King Henry the VIII couldn't/wouldn't behead his wives anymore. None of them could bear him a son. Therefore he created the Episcopal Church (which is a branch of the Catholic Church) so he was allowed to divorce.

And I am also done. Believe the way you choose, as will I. Only time will tell if we who believe in God are right or are totally blind.

 

[Bigboy]

Again, I do not believe in "churches". They are all a joke. Do you know why the Episcopal Church was created?

Answer: King Henry the VIII couldn't/wouldn't behead his wives anymore. None of them could bear him a son. Therefore he created the Episcopal Church (which is a branch of the Catholic Church) so he was allowed to divorce.

Duh. It is one of the most famous denominations because of that act. The Episcopal Church holds great importance European history and the Protestant movement that later would be one of the key movements in the settlement of what is now the United States you live in. Although a petty act was one reason for the split, it made the ripple that became the tide.

 

[Reishu]

Bigboy, I'm sorry you're so scarred concerning religion in general. Please don't say that other people are wrong to believe in religion when you're not taking their well-being into account, their freedom to think their own thoughts, or the importance that they understand for themselves (instead of being told what to do.)

Jews greatly enhanced the Egyptian's culture until they no longer had clout in the Egyptian religious sect. (And there came up a Pharaoh which did not believe in the miracles of God.)

Jews built the Egyptian religious structures, such as the Pyramid/Temple in Giza. It is no accident that so much of their knowledge back then surpasses our knowledge now in some ways. Their measure of a meter is more accurate than ours. Their concept of the universe (while mystified), matches our own in many ways, and alludes to the concept of a finer structure to the universe.

You find the negative patterns to help you believe that there isn't a god. I find a pattern in everything (negative and positive) which have helped me believe that there is a god.

 

[Bigboy]

Imagine this argument if it were "Should we teach creationism as taught by the Hindu faith in classrooms?" At least then you would be catering to the largest religion in the world, not some jealous 2nd place religion so desperate to convert people they would attempt to mandate its teaching in public schools.

 

[Bigboy]

Bigboy, I'm sorry you're so scarred concerning religion in general. Please don't say that other people are wrong to believe in religion when you're not taking their well-being into account, their freedom to think their own thoughts, or the importance that they understand for themselves (instead of being told what to do.)

Jews greatly enhanced the Egyptian's culture until they no longer had clout in the Egyptian religious sect. (And there came up a Pharaoh which did not believe in the miracles of God.)

Jews built the Egyptian religious structures, such as the Pyramid/Temple in Giza. It is no accident that so much of their knowledge back then surpasses our knowledge now in some ways. Their measure of a meter is more accurate than ours. Their concept of the universe (while mystified), matches our own in many ways, and alludes to the concept of a finer structure to the universe.

You find the negative patterns to help you believe that there isn't a god. I find a pattern in everything (negative and positive) which have helped me believe that there is a god.

You are so self absorbed you attempt to decree my feelings on this subject? Scared? Negative? Don't act so weak you can't argue with facts. You call my views negative, but I fully support religion for what it is. You confuse slavery with cohabitation. Why would an entire race of people's dedicate themselves to building another races' structures? This was quite clearly a race issue, and they didn't share common beliefs in what gods they held close at any point in time. Polythiesm and Monothiesm. I cannot think of any group in all of history that has shown any change in religion following a path other than:

Animism > Polythiesm > Monothiesm

There is no doubling back without an act of conquering to make it so.

 

[Kat]

Imagine this argument if it were "Should we teach creationism as taught by the Hindu faith in classrooms?" At least then you would be catering to the largest religion in the world, not some jealous 2nd place religion so desperate to convert people they would attempt to mandate its teaching in public schools.

I truly beg to differ here. But again, believe what you want. I do believe the Catholic's, Pope, Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Jehovah Witnesses, Methodist's, and many other religions who believe in God for that matter would differ with you also.

I would also like to point out one more thing about my abhorrance of any "one" religion/church.

My Mother-in-Law, (my God rest her soul), was a devout Catholic. I, as stated previously, do not believe in any one religion. She wanted Steve and I to be married in Catholic Church. Therefore, I went halfway with her, we got married in the House of God at Mooseheart, which is a Catholic church persay, but we got married Non-Denominational, because there was/is also a Reverend who practices there. If I was to say I was any one religion at all, I would say I'm Non-Denomational.

 

[Bigboy]

My Mother-in-Law, (my God rest her soul), was a devout Catholic. I, as stated previously, do not believe in any one religion. She wanted Steve and I to be married in Catholic Church. Therefore, I went halfway with her, we got married in the House of God at Mooseheart, which is a Catholic church persay, but we got married Non-Denominational, because there was/is also a Reverend who practices there. If I was to say I was any one religion at all, I would say I'm Non-Denomational.

Not an uncommon occurence and I commend you for sticking with your beliefs while retaining your ability to compromise with what would become your future family. Flexibility, conviction, and understanding are a rare commodity in a single person. I'm happy for you.

The question was mainly rhetorical anyways. Hindu's do outnumber the population of any other religion in the world. That much is a fact. (Hundu's currently make up about 1/3 of the population of the world.) I personally think it would recieve alot of critizism as it would be a counter religion, as apposed to no religion. Rationally, Creationism as tought by all religions should be taught in public schools as a point of reference and to help create an understanding of diversity. This class already exists in most Colleges as a class called "Intro to Religion". But not everyone gets a collage edjucation.

 

[Halifirien]

And on the same note Sculli, why is so hard for you and others to fathom that there is a God/Superior Being who created us? There is tons of documentation showing the bible to be a true history book also.

Turnabout is fair play^^.

I can answer that one.

Because believing in ghosts, goblins and gods is intensely irrational. Believing in the Christian god makes as little sense to me as believing in Zeus, Athena, Mother Goose, Santa, Quetzalcoatl, the Easter Bunny or the Wizard of Oz. When you ask "Why can't you believe in that?" I have to wonder how you can?

It's not exactly something I wrestle with on a regular basis. My lack of belief in deities is largely a non-issue to me until I see the True Believers trying to horn into areas where they don't belong. Evolution and religion can easily be reconciled -- the Catholics and plenty of churches have done it -- but the True Believer has to do the bending.

I agree with Sculli that people seem to be more afraid of our random appearance and what it says about our place in the universe. I don't believe there's any inherent "meaning" to why I'm here, and I'm okay with that. I exist, and I'll enjoy my time here until I no longer exist except as memory.

 

[Kat]

I can answer that one.

Because believing in ghosts, goblins and gods is intensely irrational. Believing in the Christian god makes as little sense to me as believing in Zeus, Athena, Mother Goose, Santa, Quetzalcoatl, the Easter Bunny or the Wizard of Oz. When you ask "Why can't you believe in that?" I have to wonder how you can?

It's not exactly something I wrestle with on a regular basis. My lack of belief in deities is largely a non-issue to me until I see the True Believers trying to horn into areas where they don't belong. Evolution and religion can easily be reconciled -- the Catholics and plenty of churches have done it -- but the True Believer has to do the bending.

I agree with Sculli that people seem to be more afraid of our random appearance and what it says about our place in the universe. I don't believe there's any inherent "meaning" to why I'm here, and I'm okay with that. I exist, and I'll enjoy my time here until I no longer exist except as memory.

Hal, I believe I understand where you're comin' from here. This is where I am truly torn as far as the Bible is concerned also. Imo, God created us all. Such a touchy subject ya know? Basically, all I can say is I feel a person's sexual preference is their choice (but then again, is it persay a choice, or are you born with a gene making you a certain way, be it bi-sexual, hetrosexual, homosexual?), and it goes back to God forgiving us all our sins (not saying you're sinning here), except sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Hope you get what I mean there. I feel it's wrong for a human with their own imperfections to judge another human.

This is why the Catholic Religion really pisses me off (sorry to you Catholics, I truly mean no harm). Basically though, what gives a Priest the right to hear your confessions week after week and they being a mere mortal themselves having the "authority" to give you redemption.

Uggghhh, anyway I swear I'm really done this time.

 

[Halifirien]

Hal, I believe I understand where you're comin' from here. This is where I am truly torn as far as the Bible is concerned also. Imo, God created us all. Such a touchy subject ya know? Basically, all I can say is I feel a person's sexual preference is their choice (but then again, is it persay a choice, or are you born with a gene making you a certain way, be it bi-sexual, hetrosexual, homosexual?), and it goes back to God forgiving us all our sins (not saying you're sinning here), except sinning against the Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure why you're bringing sexual orientation into this all of a sudden, unless it's the start of that tired old "Hali doesn't believe in God because he's gay" rationale I've been subjected to for years. I never hear "Hali doesn't believe in unicorns because he's gay" or "Hali doesn't believe in Zeus because he's gay," but somehow my being gay somehow "explains" my nonbelief where Christianity is concerned. I fail to see a connection between the two subjects; I consider it an insult to my intelligence every time I hear that, so I hope that's not where you were going.

When I referred to True Believers horning in where they didn't belong, I was referring to science classrooms.

 

[Kat]

I'm not sure why you're bringing sexual orientation into this all of a sudden, unless it's the start of that tired old "Hali doesn't believe in God because he's gay" rationale I've been subjected to for years. I never hear "Hali doesn't believe in unicorns because he's gay" or "Hali doesn't believe in Zeus because he's gay," but somehow my being gay somehow "explains" my nonbelief where Christianity is concerned. I fail to see a connection between the two subjects; I consider it an insult to my intelligence every time I hear that, so I hope that's not where you were going.

When I referred to True Believers horning in where they didn't belong, I was referring to science classrooms.

Very sorry Hal, I misunderstood. My apologies.

 

[Halifirien]

Apology accepted, dear lady.

 

[Kat]

Apology accepted, dear lady.

Thankee kind sir^^.

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

well i agree with the whole confession thing, they talk about how your not supposed to judge anyone, and only 'god' can do that, but they do confessions and the whole congregation is judging you if anything gets out to them.
what realy pisses me off about religeon is the rich people saying that they're way is the way of god, even though rich people are inherently unchristian according to jesus and the bible. and politicians using the bible to make laws, even though it says:
“Render unto. Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s"
one more thing that pisses me off it's when people don't think about their religeon, i don't think someone should believe something without actively thinking about something, like people who believe in wicca because their favorite class in any game is black mage. i feel the exact same about kids being forced to be the same religeon as their parents without the active choice to be in it or not, being forced to do something leads to rebellion as soon as you get the chance imo

 

[Reishu]

You are so self absorbed you attempt to decree my feelings on this subject? Scared? Negative? Don't act so weak you can't argue with facts. You call my views negative, but I fully support religion for what it is. You confuse slavery with cohabitation. Why would an entire race of people's dedicate themselves to building another races' structures? This was quite clearly a race issue, and they didn't share common beliefs in what gods they held close at any point in time. Polythiesm and Monothiesm. I cannot think of any group in all of history that has shown any change in religion following a path other than:

Animism > Polythiesm > Monothiesm

There is no doubling back without an act of conquering to make it so.

I didn't attempt to say what your feelings are, however your tone of voice is... to say the least seems a little pissed off. I'm not sure why. You call me weak, but i'll call you someone who just wants to point a finger at someone.

When two cultures unite in a common cause (the Pyramids), it's not an act of slavery. Egypt at the time that Giza was built was a very religious (not political) culture, based on finding truth. This culture of finding truth persisted even until the port city of Alexandria burnt down, along with the library there, touted as the best in the world.

This common cause was nothing less than religious. It wasn't until politics became the power-that-is that everything changed. You're referring to the political period, i'm not.

Another thing i'll point out: the Jewish culture was relatively typical among the area until after Moses brought them out of Egypt, giving them a set of laws that set them apart. The Bible clearly states that they worshipped the gods of Egypt.

Animism/Object Worship > Polytheism > Monotheism
These are all logical steps. People abstract wonderous things they can't explain (object worship), and because there are many concept, it's also named polytheism, and think to themselves that there must be a god that keeps peace between the gods, a sort of "head god" if you will.

I follow my god. I will not follow any others. What is this doubling back which you speak of?

 

[Sculli]

Bolded Part A. Funny you just signaling out America here. [...] What makes a father who drives a truck for a living any less of a father than one who picks rice for a living?

Well, I mentioned America because we just happen to be here for the most part, of course this applies elsewhere as well.

It's not about the profession one has really. To me a meaningful life is not limited to a meaningful job. Jobs, by default, have some meaning, because someone decided that whatever you do is worth paying you for.
Meaningless life to me means that a person did not live up to his or her potential, but instead settled on the convinience of mediocrity.

In fact, if I were religious, I would consider it blasphemy if someone would not reach for their potential as God has given them the ability to do so, instead they drop out of highschool, become unhealty, and don't find anything wrong with their lives. God gives one this body to prove one's worth to Him, and instead one spits into Gods face by not taking care of one's life.

I was raised as long as you don't sin against the Holy Spirit there will be a place in Gods Kingdom for you. Us mere mortals are all sinners, God knows this and forgives us. Hence why Jesus came to Earth.

That's the part I love about religion. There are very strict rules, but there is no need to follow them, because in the end you will be forgiven no matter what. What constitutes a sin against the Holy Spirit?

Sculli, you say that war is as old as human history, but i'd like to point out that peace is as old as human history too.

Interesting, but that doesn't relate to the subject matter discussed. Kat was saying that WWI started Armageddon(sp) and what followed were wars etc etc, and I just pointed out that there have been plenty of frequent high casualty wars on Earth before WWI. Talking about peace in this context is irrelevant.

When the mitochondiral pigment is structured appropriately (due to mental influence on the mitochondiral pigments aligning the mitochondira with a certain frequency which the background structure of the universe also shares), this will cause the energy processed by the mitochondira to begin to emit a glow due to the efficiency involved. This has been scientifically observed by my grandfather (now dead), but he never published his work because it would disrupt the science/religion status quo too much.

You sure you worded this correctly? Glow caused by efficiency? Or did you mean electricity?
Whatever your device is, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a simple scientific explanation for any occuring glow. Then it comes down to faith again, at that time faith is up vs scientific method. One says the glow's cause is supernatural, the other one says that the glow's cause is deeply rooted in physics and perhaps chemistry.

The problem is that those who subscribe to faith will sometimes readily acknowledge that the glow's cause is scientific in nature, but will then proceed to explain that even so, the underlying cause is God.

Then they will go on saying that because of this, faith is science, and we end up with ID in schools.

The point is that you can believe whatever you want about any and all glows. If it glows, science is more than likely able to explain it, unless you don't subscribe the the validity of science.

She [mother-in-law] wanted Steve and I to be married in Catholic Church. Therefore, I went halfway with her...

A couple of centuries ago this would have been considered disrespecting the parent, today it's no big deal. (going back to Armageddon)

 

[Kat]

A couple of centuries ago this would have been considered disrespecting the parent, today it's no big deal. (going back to Armageddon)

Actually a couple centuries ago, I was just a mere woman and had no say in the matter, therefore I would've gotten married in the Catholic Church^^.

As far as the rest of your comebacks Sculli, I'm just gonna agree to disagree and leave it at that.