Intelligent Design?

[Tyrion]

Answa, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to rip into a few things here with a vengance.

I don't see why people have to insult religions, and I don't see why people stamp all religious people as believing always one thing and never having their own thoughts.

Maybe that's because thats how a lot of them act.

I don't see what's wrong in believing in ID, as I don't see anything wrong in believing in evolution.

The problem with ID is this:

IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.

If you or anyone else wants to believe that God, Yaweh, Jehova, Lavos, Vishnu, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn created the universe, fine.

However, if ID proponents want to lie, twist facts, misquote people, change definitions to suit their purposes, and basically act like fuckwads because they think it's okay since they're doing it for a good cause, that's when I'm going to yell "bullshit" as often and as loudly as I can..

If anyone believes word for word everything in the Bible, in the Old Testament, then they are exercising their opinion on it.

Contrary to popular belief, opinions are not sovereign and inviolable. You sure as heck are entitled to state your opinion, and then I'm going to state my equally sacred and valid opinion that your opinion is retarded.

That's the problem with trying compete with cold, hard science using only religious opinions (and in the case of ID supporters, lying): Throwing an opinion in the face of scientific facts is like throwing a baby into the face of an oncoming car. One of them is going to go splat, and it's not the car. Or Science.

(If it were true, then there was incest involved... but then again, maybe the rules were different then)

God said it was okay, so it's perfectly fine. Just like selling your daughter into slavery (Leviticus 21:7), or killing people who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2.)

Religion is about faith, and faith is nothing to mock anyone for.

Oh yeah?
http://www.xenu.net/

Stop thinking we're ignorant and open your own mind. I've heard atheists being more close-minded than the people they argue with about religion.

Thats because most atheists will only believe in stuff thats, you know, provable. And true.

Besides, arguing is foolish, discussion and acceptance is better. I like learning about other religions, I loved discussing other religions in class (yes, our Catholic school made us learn about other religions, I have to make an oral report on one of the five main ones, but I got Christianity, the easy one, haha). I like seeing the similarities in them rather than the differences.

I'm not afraid of ID or evolution, I don't really care much for the past, whatever happened, happened, I only care how I live my own life and how I can serve those around me. My vocation is in Chemstry, others' is Priesthood, others' is teaching, whatever makes you happy.

Don't harm anyone and you're ok in my book.

What a bunch of hippie crystal-gripping nonsense.

 

[Daveman]

Thats because most atheists will only believe in stuff thats, you know, provable. And true.

Here's a good point. I think I mentioned earlier how I used to believe in a god, but as time went on, and I started to think more and more for myself, religion made less and less sense.

1st thing about religion: where did it come from? If in the old testament, people who didn't believe in god could be stoned to death, then what does that say about the native American tribes living during that period, or the Asian civilizations, or countless others who never got to hear the "word of god". Why did people believe in a sun god? or the god of the seas? or the moon god? were they wrong? why where they wrong. In my opinion religion is usually created by humans in order to instill basic laws and to explain the unexplainable. Why do so few people believe in a sun god now? Is it because now we know that the sun is nothing more than a huge mass of hydrogen and helium undergoing a immense nuclear reaction?

In the old testament, god said some pretty awful things, it's right there in the bible, people like to come back with "oh times were different back then", shouldn't god be above time? that means either god changes with the times (and changes seem to be human controlled in this context, so this would mean god is subject to human opinion, meaning he's no more intelligent than one of us) or he lied to the people (wtf?) or maybe... the prophets of that time were flat out lying about what they said god was telling them.

The god of the old testament is nothing like the god of the new testament, they're like polar opposite, one is war like and is ok with people raping women in towns they ruthlessly take over, the other is all loving, and tells people to never do wrong and etc... Did god change? Were people merely perceiving god according to their times (which makes -everything- in the bible about god questionable)? Is there more than one god? Does god like toying with us and telling us to kill one century and telling us it's wrong the next?

Also why do you believe in religion? if you grew up in an atheist neighborhood, and never even heard the word "god" until you were 20 years old, but you were taught science, and a lot of it, in fact you had a degree in some form of general science. And some missionary told you then about god. Would you believe him? I've seen my little brother raised for 8 years, as an atheist, while my parents taught him about god. I see nothing but bs, the kid can't even think for himself and he's been spoon fed information about god as fact. This is the same type of person who'd believe in Santa, the wolf that eats kids who don't eat vegetables, and the monster under his bed. And you tell him all about god, he'll eventually old Santa's not real, or finds the fake costume in the closet, that there's nothing under his bed, but no one will ever counter argue his religion until it's burned into his very core, where the ideas become all but immune to being swayed.

If you want to believe in religion, don't believe in it blindly, ask "why" at every single corner, I do that with my trust in science, I ask why the planets orbit, I ask why the sky is blue, I ask why we stick to the ground, and I usually get pretty satisfactory answers (at worse I realize that to understand the answer I'd need a few more years of education in a specific field of science). If your religion says that asking "why" is wrong and you should just have faith, then ask yourself why doesn't your religion/god want you to find out more and ask more?

I've seen 5 year olds pwn adults in religion, simply by asking "why" eventually the adults would just say "It just is". and in my book "It just is" isn't a satisfactory answer. That's the meat of what I do when people try to convince me there's a god (my parents do this often) I just throw why, after why at them, and they never give me a satisfactory answer.

I've gone to a catholic school all my life, this is my 14th year in a religious school. I hear about god all the time, I know more about the religion than most christens who believe it do. I take religion classes, I've studied the bible, I've gone to church many times, and still have to go from time to time for certain events, I used to be an alter server, I used to go to church on my own when my parents were too busy or lazy to go. Now ask yourself.. why don't I believe in god? The answer is because I simply asked why, and no one ever gave a logical answer, or an answer based on fact. "It just is" or "it says so in the bible" or "it was part of god's plan" isn't satisfactory.

 

[Answa~]

Answa, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to rip into a few things here with a vengance.

Ok, this is when I braced myself.

Maybe that's because thats how a lot of them act.

That does not mean that all of us are like that. It's almost like racism but on religion.

The problem with ID is this:

IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.

If you or anyone else wants to believe that God, Yaweh, Jehova, Lavos, Vishnu, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn created the universe, fine.

However, if ID proponents want to lie, twist facts, misquote people, change definitions to suit their purposes, and basically act like fuckwads because they think it's okay since they're doing it for a good cause, that's when I'm going to yell "bullshit" as often and as loudly as I can..

Thank you for bolding the obvious, I never once said it was a science. I never talked about teaching ID anywhere. I never said I agreed to any part of ID, I just think if someone wants to believe it, they're entitled to, just as much as they're entitled to believe in evolution.

Contrary to popular belief, opinions are not sovereign and inviolable. You sure as heck are entitled to state your opinion, and then I'm going to state my equally sacred and valid opinion that your opinion is retarded.

That's the problem with trying compete with cold, hard science using only religious opinions (and in the case of ID supporters, lying): Throwing an opinion in the face of scientific facts is like throwing a baby into the face of an oncoming car. One of them is going to go splat, and it's not the car. Or Science.

Thank you for insulting me as I have yet to do to you. Thank you for feeding the stereotype that atheists or whatever the hell you are are a group of assholes who only like to be cynical and insult everything just because "there's no evidence" for it.

Do you know for a fact that evolution is true? Do you know anything about our origin that you can "coldly" say is true? I can say that a hydrogen ion with positive charge is called a proton, so what? Splat? How do you know they're lying? I happen to know that miracles do happen, I've had one happen to me, proven by a doctor. I'm not going to waste my time telling you the story, but the point is I wouldn't have my left hand if it weren't for it, and I wouldn't be able to play the violin or write to you about how much of a dick you sound.

God said it was okay, so it's perfectly fine. Just like selling your daughter into slavery (Leviticus 21:7), or killing people who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2.)

How long ago was that? Stop dwelling in the Old Testament, that's one of the things Jesus came here for.

Oh yeah?
http://www.xenu.net/

Mock them if you want, I won't. If they harm anyone, then I'll be concerned.

Thats because most atheists will only believe in stuff thats, you know, provable. And true.

You can prove someone in court that he's guilty and that can be untrue.

What a bunch of hippie crystal-gripping nonsense.

Whatever makes your panties wet.

 

[Answa~]

Before you start the "weren't you supposed to be good?" bullshit, I'll say this: I'm not a saint, I try to be the best person I can but when I get pissed off, I get pissed off. I have questioned myself and I have questioned everything in my beliefs. Guess what I found? God. Don't believe it, not my problem. Just stop being what you accuse many religious people of being: a hypocrite, and just get off your proven to be there horse.

 

[Daveman]

Do you know for a fact that evolution is true? Do you know anything about our origin that you can "coldly" say is true? I can say that a hydrogen ion with positive charge is called a proton, so what? Splat? How do you know they're lying? I happen to know that miracles do happen, I've had one happen to me, proven by a doctor. I'm not going to waste my time telling you the story, but the point is I wouldn't have my left hand if it weren't for it, and I wouldn't be able to play the violin or write to you about how much of a dick you sound.

Evolution has pretty damn strong evidence, infact more than enough to convince me it's probably true, and even -then- science doesn't call it a law. Also how do I know ithey're not lying about what an atom or w/e is?

Because if I wanted to, I good take some courses on said subject, learn all about it, and use solid experiments/math to personally reproduce the same results, infact that's the process most theories have to go through. It isn't one guy saying it, it's many people saying it with hard evidence that can be reproduced by you personally if you really wanted to.

When doctors say it's a miracle something good happened to you, they usually mean "damn you're lucky, that only happens to 1 in 10 million people". Or maybe that they don't know what exactly happened, but it doesn't mean it had to be a "miracle", maybe your body was stronger than the normal human body, maybe you got really lucky, maybe... When you can't explain something, don't just throw the word miracle at it.

 

[Daveman]

Just stop being what you accuse many religious people of being: a hypocrite, and just get off your proven to be there horse.

I belive in whatever has the best evidence, and sounds most logically right. Currently evolution makes the most sense, if someone comes up with something better, and convinces me, I'll acknowledge it and change my beliefs accordingly. Evolution may not be proven, but it has a ton more weight that ID. Most people who belive in god, do so blindly and never waver, if you come up with something better, something that has more physical evidence and logical sense, they'll stick to their beliefs and ignore the new information.

I can chip away at everything being explainable to the very zillionth of a second of the universe being created (granted with the help of books/internet >.> ) with some sort of scientific, physical grounds. Religion can't do that, they require faith without strong evidence. If you want to argue that a god created the original big bang, then go ahead, I'll consider your god theory just as much as any scientific theory, since we literally have -nothing- but pure unground speculation at that point. However I won't choose any one idea to belive in at that point until one starts having solid footing, and even then a god of that theory would probably not be the christan god, or a god of any major religion.

edit: changed a "most definatly" to "probably" =P I'll let you guess why ~.~

 

[Answa~]

Actually, the doctor said miracle expressively. It was the day I was going to get my hand chopped off because my left-hand pinky was infected and putrid already. The day before it was still black, it stunk, and it looked so ready to just be a moemory of my body. I was still a little kid, I was and always have been weak, so it wasn't my body.

The hydrogen part you misunderstood me in, I put everything is the same paragraph, I apologize. By the cation part I meant that it's a fact and all, but it doesn't have anything to do with ID, same as the baby being thrown at the car. I AM taking the courses, I'm planning on being a Chemical Engineer. I'm not close-minded, I'm not stupid, I'm a straight-A student.

Nobody can reproduce the beginning, no one can reproduce evolution.

I don't think there will ever be the "cold, hard evidence" that you seek for when you ask about God. It's just something one has to come to terms with. You will never see love in plain sight, but you know it exists. You will never see if someone is lying to you or not, you just have to trust that someone.

Not all life can be bottled down and calculated, people think in different ways under the same circumstances, and viceversa, the same under different circumstances. Religion is not a science, yet religion doesn't disprove of science. Why does science have to disprove religion? Someone mentioned about Einstein being inhibited by religious fears, did you ever stop to think if it was for a reason? The nuclear bomb was made from his findings, do you think he liked that? Would you like thounsands of lives to stop in the hands of something YOU did?

Humans can be greedy and stupid, ignorant and cynical, they should never be skeptical, though. "The unsinkable" Titanic comes to mind.

 

[Answa~]

I belive in whatever has the best evidence, and sounds most logically right. Currently evolution makes the most sense, if someone comes up with something better, and convinces me, I'll acknowledge it and change my beliefs accordingly. Evolution may not be proven, but it has a ton more weight that ID. Most people who belive in god, do so blindly and never waver, if you come up with something better, something that has more physical evidence and logical sense, they'll stick to their beliefs and ignore the new information.

I can chip away at everything being explainable to the very zillionth of a second of the universe being created (granted with the help of books/internet >.> ) with some sort of scientific, physical grounds. Religion can't do that, they require faith without strong evidence. If you want to argue that a god created the original big bang, then go ahead, I'll consider your god theory just as much as any scientific theory, since we literally have -nothing- but pure unground speculation at that point. However I won't choose any one idea to belive in at that point until one starts having solid footing, and even then a god of that theory would probably not be the christan god, or a god of any major religion.

edit: changed a "most definatly" to "probably" =P I'll let you guess why ~.~

Perhaps I should make clear that I still haven't even decided on which to believe. Evolution seems the most logical, and even then God's existence is not being tested. Why wouldn't it be God? I believe all religions share the same God, even polytheist religions.

 

[Tyrion]

Before I begin, I'd like to say that the quoting system on this board is less than teh win. It only quotes Answa's replies, not my original statements. Suckage.

That does not mean that all of us are like that . It's almost like racism but on religion.

And I would've got away with it if it wasn't for you nosy kids!

Thank you for bolding the obvious, I never once said it was a science. I never talked about teaching ID anywhere. I never said I agreed to any part of ID, I just think if someone wants to believe it, they're entitled to, just as much as they're entitled to believe in evolution.

ID tries to pass itself off as science -- there's no need for you to say anything. It presents itself in scientific terms, tries to get into science classes, but it isn't science. Im not refering to creationism as a whole, just the scourge of ID.

I think part of the problem here is me being somewhat vague: When I'm talking about ID, I'm talking about the pseudoscientific flavor of creationism that claims not to be religious. I'm not talking about Biblical Creationism or anything else which is openly religious.

I mean, at least they're honest. However, ID proponents are liars trying to do an end-run around separation of church and state, and that really pisses me off.

Thank you for insulting me as I have yet to do to you. Thank you for feeding the stereotype that atheists or whatever the hell you are are a group of assholes who only like to be cynical and insult everything just because "there's no evidence" for it.

I'm a skeptic by nature, and a hopeful agnostic by belief.

I think I wasn't very clear with my pronouns in that previous post. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was attacking you. Here's my rewritten version:

People sure as heck are entitled to state their opinions, and then I'm can state my equally sacred and valid opinion that their opinions are retarded.

Do you know for a fact that evolution is true? Do you know anything about our origin that you can "coldly" say is true?

I can say it's been proven a hell of a lot more than "Let there be light." Scientific claims are backed up by research, at least.

I can say that a hydrogen ion with positive charge is called a proton, so what? Splat? How do you know they're lying? I happen to know that miracles do happen, I've had one happen to me, proven by a doctor. I'm not going to waste my time telling you the story, but the point is I wouldn't have my left hand if it weren't for it, and I wouldn't be able to play the violin or write to you about how much of a dick you sound.

You could, however, play a hurdy-gurdy. And I think you could still tell me how much of a dick I am, it would just take you longer.

PS: I have a (probably) similar story about the nerves in my right arm. Personally, I thank nintendo. (I played SNES to get the use of my right hand back.)

How long ago was that? Stop dwelling in the Old Testament, that's one of the things Jesus came here for.

Take it out of the book, and I'll stop harping on it.

Mock [scientologists] if you want, I won't. If they harm anyone, then I'll be concerned.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/JeremyPerkins/
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Scientology has killed people, and stolen the life savings of many more. They're a vicious money-grubbing cult that preys on the weak.

You can prove someone in court that he's guilty and that can be untrue.

Legal proof and scientific proof are two different things, we could go back and forth on this for a few hours, but lets stick to scientific stuff as opposed to the courts. Unless we're telling lawyer jokes.

Whatever makes your panties wet.

Spirited debate makes my panties wet. You make my panties wet too.

Before you start the "weren't you supposed to be good?" bullshit, I'll say this: I'm not a saint, I try to be the best person I can but when I get pissed off, I get pissed off.

That pretty much describes me too. I guess the whole ID thing just gets my blood boiling. Sorry for making you feel like I was attacking you personally. You bastard.

Just stop being what you accuse many religious people of being: a hypocrite, and just get off your proven to be there horse.

I never accused anyone of being a hypocrite. I accused ID supporters of being liars, not hypocrite.

And personally, I'm not a hypocrite, I'm a loudmouth jerk. There's a difference.

 

[Tyrion]

Humans can be greedy and stupid, ignorant and cynical, they should never be skeptical, though. "The unsinkable" Titanic comes to mind.

Actually, that would be Arrogance, not skepticism. A Skeptic would have had issues with the "Unsinkable" bit.

 

[Bigboy]

Scientology was all part of a bar bet between 4 distingueshed men who each bet they could get anything print just because of the power their names held.
1 man wrote a morbid children's book that was published. Another wrote a book that made no sense and was written with different fonts and layouts on every page (written backwards, upside-down, and in spirals). And L Ron Hubbard wrote a self help book that was the creation of Scientology. I don't know what the 4th guy did, my guess is he lost the bet.

The point is, Scientology is a crock of shit, and the moral is, don't believe everything you read.

 

[Kat]

As I've already stated, I'm gonna let you guys hash this out further, but Tyrion nice saves (for lack of a better word). Definitely got a few chuckles out of me^^.

 

[Paulio]

That's the problem with trying compete with cold, hard science using only religious opinions

I assume with this statement your trying to say that other opinions of how the universe was created is cold, hard science. If that is the case, then I have to say your cold, hard wrong. At best most of the opinions, including the opinions of a creater/creaters, is at the hypothesis stage of the scientific method. None have been proven and all contradict true scientific laws and probability.(Chaos Theory, Law of Conservation,etc...)

Thats because most atheists will only believe in stuff thats, you know, provable. And true.

Kind of a contradictory statement. If you know its provable and true, then you don't have to believe in it. It is not provable or known to be true. Atheism is something that is believed in with a certain amount of faith.

The problem with ID is this:

IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.
IT IS NON-SCIENCE TRYING TO PASS ITSELF OFF AS SCIENCE.

If you or anyone else wants to believe that God, Yaweh, Jehova, Lavos, Vishnu, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn created the universe, fine.

However, if ID proponents want to lie, twist facts, misquote people, change definitions to suit their purposes, and basically act like fuckwads because they think it's okay since they're doing it for a good cause, that's when I'm going to yell "bullshit" as often and as loudly as I can..

For you to champion Atheism as cold, hard fact, and a proven truth border- lines hypocrisy, in my opinion.

 

[Answa~]

I'll discuss with T over AIM, anybody else I can talk with here.

 

[Valoran]

Let's remember that Atheism is a belief that there is not greater truth or force whatsoever; agnosticism is not being decided. As such, Atheism is faith that there is nothing; Atheism cannot be proven -- you cannot prove that there is no unprovable force.

I've got a lot more to say to some of Tyrion's earlier posts, but I won't have the time to write it until later.

 

[Reishu]

I find nothing at all wrong with the people who live their religion. It's a culture and a way of life, and as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, i'm all for it. What i do have problems with is people who are so into themselves (religion, culture, ego, whatever, i don't really care) that they can't be considerate of others or their opinions.

I admit, I may have gone too far with my opinions too, but I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I was merely trying to point out that science and religion can coexist; actually improving on one another. Besides, debates can sometimes get out of hand ^^;

I used to live in that ultra-conservative religious stuff, and yes it's kind of nice. I haven't renounced it either (nor would i hope to), but it does trouble me when religion/faith is the excuse to not believe something instead of the foundation to believe.

 

[Answa~]

"faith and religion" = science and religion?

 

[Reishu]

umm yeah ^^; i'll fix that

 

[Valoran]

"faith and religion" = science and religion?

Or it could've been a statement about how religion doesn't imply blind belief, but that real, solid and informed belief (ie, faith) can coexist with an organized religion that has established doctrines.

And nobody jump on me about how faith can't be solid and informed because it, by definition, has no proof. Things can be informed by something other than factual evidence.

There's no proof of gravity; just a whole world of circumstantial evidence. The difference is, science has faith in the continuation of similar principles in mathematical and physical (in the sense of physics) objects. Religion has faith in the continuation of similar principles in moral and metaphysical objects.

Maybe your faith gets informed by something commonplace . . . maybe a baby looks up at you and smiles, and you think maybe there's something basic in us that can recognize goodness. Maybe you find that you always feel good after you help somebody, even in something like a Final Fantasy quest. Maybe from that you deduce (the way Newton deduced the theory of gravity) that there is something that is beneficial about helping other people. That's a moral principle, and religions are dedicated to working with those and understanding them better.

I think cults (to get back to the poll discussion) are not interested in that world, but in hiding from that world, or claiming that it doesn't, or cannot, exist. That devil-church link a few pages back is an excellent example -- it wants to claim that there are no real moral principles.

 

[Answa~]

Hehe, this isn't the cult page, but I agree with you.

By the way, my question was to know what she meant, and she cleared it up.