X said:Yeah, a pt that knows how to use a bard.... can't remember the last time.... Now BST, there's a true challenge
The marathon job. Lots of exercise running
The marathon job. Lots of exercise running
How can running around buffing, watching for needed debuffs, watching for status effect to cure, and trying to squeeze in curagas/cure3s easier than auto attacking as a DD? Seriosly, give some kind of justifcation or reasoning as to why you think that instead of just the statment. In my partys that know how to work with a brd, I commonly end up as puller to increase effiency, that alone makes it more difficult than just doing /a followed by a couple tp macros (assuming your partner isn't using windower and lets you skip this) and eventualy a /ws "I d0 uBer dMge n0wz!!11". How do you justify every other job in the game being more difficult than brd?
Heck, if not for SCs a melees job can be botted with 3 commands.
/Assist "Puller"
/a <t>
/follow <t>
Have it try to ws occasionaly if you want. Boom you, have a bot performing most of a melees job. Now let's see someone create a bot for brd or rdm that can come even close to matching the effectiveness of a good human player in said job with such a simple botting scheme. Shouldn't be hard if brd is as easy as you claim. :roll:
/Assist "Puller"
/a <t>
/follow <t>
Have it try to ws occasionaly if you want. Boom you, have a bot performing most of a melees job. Now let's see someone create a bot for brd or rdm that can come even close to matching the effectiveness of a good human player in said job with such a simple botting scheme. Shouldn't be hard if brd is as easy as you claim. :roll:
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vang said:
as true as that is that doesnt make it ok.
Rones said:
A bard doens't risk much, if anything. They pull virtually no hate in what they do.
You cannot throw in what you do(pulling) in with what the job is excpected to do. You are going beyond the call of duty, that's great. But thats not what the job is around for.
In it's core, the job is to buff other players. Subbing whitemage is not required, but the norm since it offers more than just songs to the PT as well. Healing wouldn't ever be your main job, but tossing status cures around to help out the real healers is a good deal. The bard itself isn't a difficult job, as much as it is how your party works with you. I always stand away from tank, far end from mages because I know how the stuff works. Back up curing is not a difficult job. The only thing bard has for it thats required and more "difficult" than another party member is that they need to be mobile. They are not expected to do anything else.
Also, with melees and auto attack, just like the bare number of songs singing and then AFKing for the rest of the fight minimalist bard, yes, you can autoattack and just weaponskill when you get TP. But maybe I should post my macro list, my equipment and macroed in selections to show you it's not all that easy. If I, personally autoattack and AFK, I'll end up dead. I do not rely on my party members to keep my alive as much as I do my own abilities. I do not weaponskill as soon as possible. I do not start the skillchain as soon as possible, I wait until the tank is sure they'll have enough hate built up in the first place, to where the Trick Attack won't mean anything and leave the mob facing me. I carry my MND gear around sometimes for a prefight Chi Blast to blow off Stoneskin as well.
Does that mean every melee does what I do? Ofcourse not, many do indeed auto attack and forgetabou'it like you say. But basing what I do and saying thats the way things are with the job/archetype isn't a great way of going around proving that soandso job is easier/difficult.
Anyway, a bard should also understand whats best for it's target job, not just what they think is better for the target archetype. Thief and Monk damage boost from attack peters out at a low value, and STR becomes more valuable. I prefer the basic STR etude(the one that won't decline in effectiveness) and a Minuet or Madrigal as opposed to Double Minuet. Does that make me wrong because I know my job where as the bard might not? Remember, damage caps on weapons vary from type to type. Infinite attack is not always the best solution.
Sure, you can macro bot a BRD or RDM, it's really not that difficult. Sure, it's harder than /attack and /follow, but it's doable.
I never implied otherwise and fully understand you must balance attack and str for normal attacks. However, this entire discussion was about ws for sam, not mnk normal attacks. In the situation of sam ws, I'll stand by my numbers that +str etudes are a waste.
You've never seen a good brd then. I'm eagerly looking foward to 72 so I can get errant and all it's -enimity because I pull loads of hate on brd. Just ask Neophytal, he has some incredible gear and I'll still pull hate just as often as DD without even trying. Those debuffs and buffs all give a moderate amount of hate. Add in a curaga 1 or 2 with a couple cure 3s and I've got hate. I carry around a tanking gear now all set to macro in because I pull hate so often (Earth staff, carpace helmet, carpace body, carpace hands, and looking at adding some more soon). I have even gone so far as to put merits into -enimity just to help my brd as my whm doesn't have hate issues.
That's just like saying subbing war or thf is not required for a melee. About 1/3 of the spells/songs I cast are whm cures and -na spells. My whm sub is a huge factor in my ability to contribute to the party. That is also why I have over 300 mp as a brd/whm at 69 (1/3 a full whm's normal mp tank).
I expect bards to play to the maximum of their abilities. Sadly, most people's expectations are much lower because they are happy to just have a brd at all. Playing to your max as a brd involves way more than being mobile as I described in my previous post. You have to constantly watch for mob buffs, watch for your debuffs wearing, watch for status effects on teammates to cure, watch teammates hp just like a whm does to cure them, watching my hate lvl, and keep track of your song times so you can refresh them just before they wear. If you are good and organized enough you can even squeeze in a couple ticks of rest with a dark staff for some free extra mp. I'm constantly monitoring 4-5 different thing...you are watching your hate lvl to decide when you should stop attacking and for the mob to reach 50% health so you can ws. Yep, your job is much more difficult. :roll:
I've done mnk up to 35 and other melee jobs to 20. I understand how it works. I however do not think you fully understand how a good brd plays. The big problem is you can't get the full first hand experience until ballad 2 at 55. That is when things really start getting hectic for brd. Pre 25 brd is very easy, I'll give you that much. Pre 25 brd...do two melees buffs, start autoattacking, go afk until next fight, rinse repeat. :lol:
LOL, don't talk to a brd about macros. I don't have a single macro as brd that doesn't change at least one piece of equipment, usually 2-3, and sometimes 5-6. However, having lots of equip swapping in macro doesn't make either job hard. The equip gets changed with whatever activity you were trying to do anyway, so in that repect it becomes a moot point. (eg: I fire macro to cast lullaby, it also changes 5 pieces of equipment with no extra work required).
Yeah, just autoattacking and leaving doesn't get 100% performance, but it does come much closer than any mage can do (brd included).
I would really like to see a rdm or brd bot that can come even close to performing like a human player at those jobs. It is easy for a bot to come close to the performance of a human melee DD, but a mage's job is dynamic and constantly active. Mage's are reactive, and in the case of the brd being mobile alone rules out botting ability. I would love to see a bot that could move to the right position for melee and mage buffs alone without hitting others. This becomes even more complicated by the fact that parties are mobile, while they may stay in the same camp, they are constantly moving a little farther foward or back, so using static points wouldn't work.
Rones said:
And a smart melees job isn't? I turn away from vision-based attacks(Mortal Ray, Cold Stare, etc), and run target area attacks away from the party if theres room(-ga's, Bomb Toss, etc) so that I'm the only one getting hit.
All it would really require to bot a mage is windower to change your <p#> around in an outside script. Then just load it up with /targets, /ma's, /heals, and you have a sufficient botted mage.
I have seen a few tanks run from weapons to avoid the aoe stun attack, but I have never seen a melee successfuly run an aoe attack far enough away that it avoids hitting the others.
LOL, you really need to try your hand at programming AI before claiming it is that easy. I'm curious how you would script the brd movement alone. SE doesn't even have any AI in the game advanced enough to mimic proper mage activity without human input. The npc healer mode is about the closest they have come, but it always stands in aoe range, can't decide when to rest on its own, and is pretty random with the rest of its spells. Additionaly, that rdm/whm style doesn't even compare to the activity a brd must put forth.
Programming sucks. I took an intro course in it. Had to put a lego-car through a maze. But couldn't touch it. Had to program all the movements first, then put it in. That shit is hard.
I cheated, but got 300% on it cause I went through it forwards and backwards. There was sensors, so i just attached 3 so it was long, then programmed the sensor for the first touch make it go forward, second backward, third spin. Anyway.
Programmings fucking hard. :x
I cheated, but got 300% on it cause I went through it forwards and backwards. There was sensors, so i just attached 3 so it was long, then programmed the sensor for the first touch make it go forward, second backward, third spin. Anyway.
Programmings fucking hard. :x
M
Mokk
Guest
vang said:
I had to respond to this .. it's priceless .. now here this right-wing republican/bush loving pussy masochists:
Zogby Poll: 42% diapproval
Gallup Poll: 51% disapproval (according to gallup's site)
Currently he holds the lowest approval rating of ANY second term president as even a marginal 10% of the people who actually voted for him think he sucks at his job and are bordering on looking for a reason for impeachment
I've got friends getting shot at oversease, i'm paying more for just about everything (not just gas), and currently my state's medicare is going bankrupt and being removed leaving thousands who need medical care in the cold to fend for themselves.
In future instead of just bashing people who think differently than you due to being in different situations in life than you are by name calling why not go out on a limb and explain your conviction. I know you've got the brains in you to do at least that much
On a side note as the polls show it's not just us "anti republican/bush pussy sissy boys" who have a problem with this moron it's us, the rest of the world, and approaching 1/4 of his supporters. Clearly there's an issue if your disapproval rating is higher than your vote % in the last election. Regardless of vehement support from blathering idiots in comfortable life situations the man is going to go down as one of the worst presidents in history, no bones about it.
But I keep more of my taxes with this president don't I? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Mokk said:vang said:
I had to respond to this .. it's priceless .. now here this right-wing republican/bush loving pussy masochists:
Zogby Poll: 42% diapproval
Gallup Poll: 51% disapproval (according to gallup's site)
Currently he holds the lowest approval rating of ANY second term president as even a marginal 10% of the people who actually voted for him think he sucks at his job and are bordering on looking for a reason for impeachment
I've got friends getting shot at oversease, i'm paying more for just about everything (not just gas), and currently my state's medicare is going bankrupt and being removed leaving thousands who need medical care in the cold to fend for themselves.
In future instead of just bashing people who think differently than you due to being in different situations in life than you are by name calling why not go out on a limb and explain your conviction. I know you've got the brains in you to do at least that much
On a side note as the polls show it's not just us "anti republican/bush pussy sissy boys" who have a problem with this moron it's us, the rest of the world, and approaching 1/4 of his supporters. Clearly there's an issue if your disapproval rating is higher than your vote % in the last election. Regardless of vehement support from blathering idiots in comfortable life situations the man is going to go down as one of the worst presidents in history, no bones about it.
*claps enthusiastically*
I bet bush is going to re-write that "minimum ammount of terms in office as president" rule so that he never has to resign..
That would be maximum amount, not minimum.
M
Mokk
Guest
While i do appreciate it i wouldn't call it heated .. let alone a debate, can't argue with the numbers.
I'm more disappointed he didn't support his mindless name calling and show some sort of reasoning behind it ... much like those who posted following that who basicly just went "YEA... fuckers, i agree." He's more than capable of supporting an argument, no poison in this pen, just kinda a point i wanted to make as the international as well as notional approval polls came out recently and someone mentioned them to me in passing the other day, if it seemed heated i just wanted to bring it down to his lvl for emphasis is all
He wasen't even trying
I'm more disappointed he didn't support his mindless name calling and show some sort of reasoning behind it ... much like those who posted following that who basicly just went "YEA... fuckers, i agree." He's more than capable of supporting an argument, no poison in this pen, just kinda a point i wanted to make as the international as well as notional approval polls came out recently and someone mentioned them to me in passing the other day, if it seemed heated i just wanted to bring it down to his lvl for emphasis is all
He wasen't even trying
M
Mokk
Guest
I do get so tired of being called liberal like it's a bad thing simply because i believe that philantropy, accountability, and responsibility are traits a leader should have :?
I'm sorry to say, no matter how much you want to argue it, common sense shows MNK is easier to play than BRD. If you want to make the argument that you personally go completely out of the way to complicate your job and that hate is such a concern becuase you're a lvl 75 with god gear who probably fights mainly T and lower, it doesn't change the fact that MNK is by far the easier job in the game to play. BRD is the most complicated job to play, next to NIN, on base. When you play BRD right or NIN right, at the end of a long exp session, your hand should be tired.
On a different note, I literally laughed out loud hearing a dirty liberal talk about accountability.
Don't click here if easily offended:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/monica_gotmilk.jpg
On a different note, I literally laughed out loud hearing a dirty liberal talk about accountability.
Don't click here if easily offended:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/monica_gotmilk.jpg
I also have a chucke to myself everytime people throw poles out to prove their Bush bashing is justified. I remember seeing these supposedly accurate poles all the way up to the 04 election, showing how much America hates bush and thinks I'm insane. Election comes around... hmm, for some reason Bush wins? Maybe your polls fucking suck because you get them from the DNC. Maybe all your information on Bush is wrong because you get it from Michael Moore. Just a thought, dumbass.