Joyeuse.

See now this is a very interesting discussion. I'm very eager to level my DNC to 75 and start playing around with some builds. Now I was under the impresison that a DNC would fill a pseudo-DD role in a merit party. Alongside a WHM/RDM and a BRD, the party would be pushing an insane amount of attack haste with Haste Sambe, with the DNC not quite matching a hard-line DD in damage, but justifying their slot nicely. I was not sure about main-healing a merit party on DNC, because I have done it on RDM and WHM many times and it seemed like a lot to do if you're limited to your Waltz timer (and you don't have utility spells ~ Raise, Haste, Regen, Dispel, Dia).

However, I would definitely try your strat Inunabe. /SAM would procure ample TP to play around with, but I'm still not convinced about Joyeuse. Your gear set does have a fair amount of accuracy, but very minimal attack and below 10% Haste. But whatever works for an individual is cool beans, I'll have to do some of my own testing and see what I like doing.

Edit: Oh, and Love Torque anyone? :3

My LS merits consist of 2 variations. 5 DD and me healing, or 4 DD, Me main healing, and a rdm or a whm that can focus on just Haste and Debuffs on a mob. We usually end up roaming the various bird camps, and w/o trying to hard, (as our LS likes to just have fun with things and not get stressed out like some meripos can do) have easily gotten upwards of chain 100 or so.

When main healing on dnc, alot of it is just playing smart, using your TP and the waltz cooldown wisely. Curing Waltz 4 is your worst enemy, remember this. The 15 sec CD is a huge hurt in any party, and should be used for emergencies only. Also, instead of using Haste Samba, Drain Samba 3 is a huge advantage. Most of your dds, 2 handed weapons, or dual wielding wars, can usually drain, on average, 40-60 HP an attack round. This, to me, justifies the loss of 5% haste from Haste Samba.

As for the lack of haste gear? I make up for it with all the STP I have, and that combined with the low delay of Joyeuse, makes up for it amply. If anyone is interested, and has a parser, I will gladly merit with people sometime so we can get some hard data.

As to the DD bit. From lvl 60- 73 or so I actually did play DD in alot of parties, just because we seemed to be lacking any that wanted to xp >.> Building Flourish + Wild Flourish and Dancing Edge allowed me to do upwards of 1k dmg on Colibri, Greater Colibri, and the fire Crawlers. But at 75, <.< Main healing for a meripo is just a rush, so I love doing it. Just make sure everyone goes /nin or /sam, you'll need it. And having a whm or rdm around to just Haste and debuff is a help, and most rdms or whms will love you for it since it makes their job a ton easier.
 
Just want to thank you, Inunabe, for all the good information and your perspective. ^^

This is definitely an interesting topic.
 
I agree, very valuable information Inunabe! Great to have a 75DNC's perspective :awesome:
 
^^: Thanks everyone. You have some great info as well Sneaky, specially for anyone wanting to try DNC in endgame scenarios, or for going /nin. I truly hope to get the chance to go out with you guys to get some hard data. It would be great to be able to put up some hardcore facts for the FF community to see, and possibly give other options besides /nin.
 
Sounds great. It was nice chatting with you in game ^^
 
if you want next monday I have off I can run my parser and we can get some numbers up^^
 
I have Nyzul Isle runs until around 12-1 am, but after that I would gladly run with ya. I'm still trying to figure out how to set up this damn parser. >.> My buddy set up my last one, so I'm like a bat in the dark....w/o the cool...not needing to see bat super powers o.0
 
usually they're pretty simple, I still have yet to try out the new one a friend sent me I used to use directx until the last update.

and that sounds good just let me know as I always need merits(and a break from whoring exp on smn)
 
We both said other things as well, but the point I was making was this:
Example...Our 75 DNC is using the same food, has the same buffs, and all the same gear, save the neck piece. For ease, let's use a very attainable +40 accuracy from gear alone. Everything else is the same in the scenario, so the focus is on only a single difference.

So one DNC has exactly +40 "accuracy" from gear (PCC DNC). The other has +37 (Love Torque DNC). Without saying anything else, the "winner" would seem obvious. However, commonly understood relations of DEX and accuracy will lessen the gap to almost nil. The torque user will come out on top. +40 accuracy on top of ~250 skill (just rough numbers for the example) will not surpass the performance of ~+39.5 accuracy, ~7 attack, +5 DEX, and 7 more skill @ ~280 skill.

Switching weapons to dagger, your native skill jumps up considerably, yet you still have access to all the same acc+ gear you had at a much lower level of skill.

Is Joytoy a great option? Sure, if you can make it work. Is it limiting? Yes. I'm not saying to choose one over another, but just dissecting some of the things that come packaged with "using daggers" or "using swords" on DNC.

I am not saying PCC > Love Torqe, I was saying PCC > Fortitude. Love gives dexterity which bumps up the accuracy and adds in crits which makes it really only a difference of ~1 accuracy less for the torque in exchange for 7 attack and increase crits, a pretty easy choice to make. However, what I am getting out of your comments is there is more to skill than just the 1 acc/att and there really isn't with the exception of H2H.

If a DNC is going to be using a joyeuse, I would say go for PCC over Fortitude Torque all the way because they need the accuracy and a PCC will give them more. If they were to use a dagger, by all means, use a Love Torque; you'd be an idiot not to equip it if you could.
 
I am not saying PCC > Love Torqe, I was saying PCC > Fortitude. Love gives dexterity which bumps up the accuracy and adds in crits which makes it really only a difference of ~1 accuracy less for the torque in exchange for 7 attack and increase crits, a pretty easy choice to make. However, what I am getting out of your comments is there is more to skill than just the 1 acc/att and there really isn't with the exception of H2H.

If a DNC is going to be using a joyeuse, I would say go for PCC over Fortitude Torque all the way because they need the accuracy and a PCC will give them more. If they were to use a dagger, by all means, use a Love Torque; you'd be an idiot not to equip it if you could.


I'm saying Fortitude > PCC for sword wielding DNC.
Everything being the same, the difference is 3 acc, but you're 7 skill levels higher to start with.
In other words, +37 acc @ 238 base skill > +40 acc @ 231 base skill.
 
I'm saying Fortitude > PCC for sword wielding DNC.
Everything being the same, the difference is 3 acc, but you're 7 skill levels higher to start with.
In other words, +37 acc @ 238 base skill > +40 acc @ 231 base skill.

Makes sense to me. I hadn't really considered it that way, but now that I think about it, I already knew that, lol. I would definitely get that torque then, but I don't do sea, so meh.
 
Here's my experience.

I'm a 75 dnc, with fully merited sword, and Suppa. This gives me just barely a C rating in sword. Here's the deal, the trick with using a joyeuse effectively is going /sam. Dnc/sam gains TP unbelievably fast. I easily out gain a sam, or anyone in haste gear aside from "maybe" a thf dual wielding the fastest daggers they can get.

As for gear, you do not need to sacrifice haste/stp gear for acc. I personally use the cobra unit gear that can be gotten from campaign. This stuff is marvelous for dnc, as if it was made just for the job. Acc, stp, and -enmity. I currently have +45 acc on gear alone, + 13 stp, and as /sam that totals for an extra 2.8% tp per attack round. I do not atm have rajas ring, or brutal earring, but I do wear the Walahra turban for headgear, SH for body. I would use enkidu, or antares harness preferably, but they're more or less just an upgraded SH. After I get my Rajas Ring, and Brutal earring I will have 3.4% more tp per attack round.

I main hand my joyeuse as /sam. With all the stp, and the DA rate of joyeuse which as far as I can tell is 45-50%, and according to the other testing data I've read it is, I get between 7-15% tp per attack round, and this is with my delay being a little less then half of that of a dnc/nin in haste gear, with suppanomimi. I easily out tp gain a dnc/nin, to the point where it's embarrassing. I do on occassion go dnc/nin, but that is limited to the periods when I don't have anyone to heal in a campaign battle. Tp gain as dnc/nin, main handing a dagger, off handing Joyeuse, is 10-15% tops, but again that's at almost twice the delay of /sam and just the joyeuse. The delay on most of the higher lvl daggers can use is the same, or just a smidge less then Joyeuse.

Now the question you may be thinking is this. Ok, you mentioned campaign, but campaign mobs are gawdawfully easy to hit at 75, but what about NMs or meripos?

Meripos are easy as pie. One of the biggest advantages is having meditate to give yourself a nice tp kickstart. Against Greater Colibri, or mamool, I have NO need for sushi. Do I use it? Yes. I use Tuna sushi because, yes it does help with acc, but also for the nice hefty CHR boost it gives, which helps my heals. I frequently main heal for my LS merit pts, usually consisting of 5, yes count em, 5 DD jobs and just me healing, with everyone being either /nin or /sam. Step acc with the AF gloves is more then enough to keep steps on. I will say, yes...I do see an acc difference between daggers, but the DA on joyeuse makes up for it, as well as Zanshin from /sam. I also wear Bushido Cape which enchances zanshin, and zanshin CAN proc on both swings on a DA attack round.

I've toyed around with both /nin and /sam enough that I will forever HATE going /nin unless I know there will be an AOE problem froms mobs that shadows can block, or if I solo in campaign and want to actually use my WS. Otherwise, go /sam and use a joyeuse.

Edit* Currently I have 1 step acc merit, 1 haste samba merit, and 5 Reverse Flourish merit. Even with just 1 step acc merit I see a significant difference.

Edit again* >.> Also, if I currently had an Azoth, I would probably go /nin more often, just because that dagger is really f***ing cool.
Also, I have personally tested this out myself with a ton of borrowed haste gear from my LS, /sam and wearing the cobra stuff with all the store tp is MUCH better at gaining tp then tons of haste. Do remember that haste lowers the tp you gain, but Haste Samba does not effect this specifically. Dnc/nin decked in haste gear just can not compete with /sam and stp gear using a joyeuse. If they were using just a dagger, it MIGHT be different, but from my testing like that, it's not much slower then /nin and dual wield


Bolded confuses me. Was it a typo? My understanding was that haste doesn't reduce tp/hit, which actually allows it to increase TP gain, whereas Haste Samba isn't really haste, just simply a delay reduction effect, which in fact will lower tp/hit (but equaling tp/second). I've gone blu/dnc to a number of campaigns, and I can gain tp at an alarming rate, lol. My gear setup had +15% haste (25% counting refuelnig), and store TP +10 (+20 with store TP job trait set). Also, did you try haste gear as /sam with joy? Or just haste /nin versus storeTP /sam?
 
I'm sorry for that, and my lack of a response. I haven't been in game, so can't test, but when I wrote that, my understanding was that haste originally did reduce tp. The wiki entry has been changed since the time I read it on haste. So it's quite possible you are right.

Also, it has been noted on BG, that Haste Samba doesn't affect tp gain negatively. As for everything else, I'll have to do some more testing, but I know I still personally favor /sam and joyeuse in xp/campaign situations as it seems to give higher tp gain.
 
well im a dancer 75 and i personally prefer Azoth/Heart Snatcher and i have had no troubles building tp as fast as someone with joyeuse in some cases i have built it quicker. not to mention my dagger skill is capped at 256 merited to 270. i stick to dnc/nin and <3 saber dance is beautiful. with saber dance you can land 3 times as many hits as someone dagger/joyeuse. when i have haste samba active with samber dance i have done up to 16 attacks in a row because of double attack and dualwield.

haste samba has no negative effect on tp gain as i can see.
 
well im a dancer 75 and i personally prefer Azoth/Heart Snatcher and i have had no troubles building tp as fast as someone with joyeuse in some cases i have built it quicker. not to mention my dagger skill is capped at 256 merited to 270. i stick to dnc/nin and <3 saber dance is beautiful. with saber dance you can land 3 times as many hits as someone dagger/joyeuse. when i have haste samba active with samber dance i have done up to 16 attacks in a row because of double attack and dualwield.

haste samba has no negative effect on tp gain as i can see.

Yeah, since I posted, I've also read that Haste Samba doesn't reduce tp/hit. What I came across was probably just inconclusive with it being so new at the time.
 
Haste samba doesnt increase or decrease tp generally, since it costs 35 tp, and by the time it wears its made you about 30-35.

If you've got like 50-60% haste it makes you more though and becomes worth it.
 
In what situations is Saber Dance useful? Since Waltz is unusable while Saber Dance is on... so I suppose not that useful for soloing>.> unless I'm missing something. I find myself using Waltz all the time, so I really wanna know if Saber Dance is worth meriting or not.^^; I hit 75 like 1-2 months ago but really haven't had time to merit so I don't know much about the Dancer Merit Groups.
 
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Well, the double attacks increase tp gain dramatically and really put the hurt on the monster.

Also, if you have drain samba three up, I generally drain 20-30 a hit so on all 4 hits landing thats like 120 or so HP being drained per round.

Best method so far is use saber dance + drain samab to build tp to 300% and then swap to fan dance and use tp to stay alive
 
Well, the double attacks increase tp gain dramatically and really put the hurt on the monster.

Also, if you have drain samba three up, I generally drain 20-30 a hit so on all 4 hits landing thats like 120 or so HP being drained per round.

Best method so far is use saber dance + drain samab to build tp to 300% and then swap to fan dance and use tp to stay alive

Ohhh right. Didn't think about that. :3 Thanks a lot. May I ask which weapons do you use?
 
well urat if you merit haste samba i generally make over 200 tp before mine wears off and as well as saber dance active i can make around 300 tp
 
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