Kids and the N word

Anoki said:
I'd always heard that the Lottery is a tax on those who are bad at math.
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Care to guess who doesn't have the cash to pay for private schools in urban areas where the public schools are bad?
 
chpal said:
im really tired of the double standard alot of blacks are using. Its ok for them to make fun and talk shit to all the other races, yet God forbid I ever call one a N99ger. Im Mexican and I grew up in a predominately middle to upper class neighboorhood. I grew up where all the mexicans lived and all the blacks (most who were lower class) lived in the only "ghetto" of the town. I grew up in constant conflict with them, and even to this day its hard for me to not generalize them all as thugs. I know they are not all like that, every race has their own group of people who the society disproves of. But when your 15 and the only black people you have ever interacted with are dumb as a rock, steal, cheat, and cause havok, its hard to get that thinking out of your head, expecially when all your friends and family feel the same way.
Im in the Navy now and have meet some really awesome black people, like my Chief. But at the same time, for every one awesome black guy, ive meet 2-3 N99gers still acting like they are civilians. Im not really sure what the point of my post was anymore, but im to lazy toearse it all now.
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Where did you grow up were things are like this? I know where I am from its seen as ok by some for mexicans to say the word as long as its not in a bad manner. Thats most likely because here Mexicans are discriminated against alot and lots of blacks and mexicans are friends here.

I lived in a city in Illinois were equality was promoted throughout the county and there was little racial issues. There were lots of interracial couples and until I was in 3rd grade I never heard the "N" word. Most of the city was upper/middle class but it seemed like the lower class started to spread and the city started getting more violent. Thats when I moved to Texas with my family and had a rude awakening with racial issues. I don't think I need to go into details but use your imagination.

I am sure that if I did not live in a place were there wasn't much racism prior to moving to Texas then I would probably have had the same mindset as you.

Valoran said:
Any way you slice it, Yankee was a slur that got claimed by the American colonists and underwent a radical transformation. The fact that its etymological origins are rooted in slavery or racial slurs is a really interesting parallel. How would we react to a baseball team named the ******s?
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I heard about this before but wasn't surprised with this. Certain things are ok to change as long as they were ok with the majority. If im correct when people say they have been "gypped" when they feel cheated or stolen from they are putting down people of the gypsy culture. I remember saying that when I was a kid and didn't know any better until I was told so. People still use this term frequently because it seems accepted by the majority.
 
That's a very interesting etymology, Val.

As to the topic of systemetized racism, I'd like to provide an alternate perspective. The white(or perhaps it would be more accurate to say non-black) community lives with a deeply ingrained fear of being labeled as racists. It's awesome knowing that when people hear the name of your state's most recognizable city, ofttimes the first mental image they get is of police dogs and firehoses. It's even more awesome to discover that there at least appear to be sizable numbers of people willing to prejudge us based on our accents, our place of birth, and what they percieve to be our heritage. Most of us are deeply shamed by the actions of our forefathers(and in some cases, grandparents or even parents), so ashamed in fact that for nearly three generations, we have gone entirely out of our way, in many cases bending to the breaking point, to avoid being labeled as racists.

You'd think this would be acknowledged. Instead, what we have today are large numbers of people who can't even recognize when they are being treated fairly, people who are so used to a "fixed game" that they cry foul when they're not given preferential treatment. Having worked in a service industry for a number of years, I can say in complete honesty that every time I've been called a racist, it's been in response to treating someone with absolutely the same courtesy, respect, and dignity as the dozen customers that came in before them. Yes, I know. This is called "playing the race card," but the fact that it can be and frequently is played for sheer shock value indicates, to me at least, a profound lack of respect for the blood, sweat, and tears of past generations of all colors of the spectrum.

How I find the above paragraphs to be a relevant response to our discussion of "systematic discrimination" lies in the fact that once the system is skewed in one direction, it takes a lot to shift it back to an even keel.

Thank you for this discussion. I always welcome opportunities to discuss differing viewpoints and opinions with someone as intelligent and well-spoken as yourself and several other of this thread's contributors.
 
Negorissimo said:
Que pasa Negro! ^^
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!Oy Oy mi hombre!

on topic: I have to agree with Meeze on identity issues it's not limited to things such as race

culture
creed
politics
sexuality

it's really what a good friend told me after I asked a personal question and was hoping that he/she wasnt offended by my curiosity.

"Dont think the <insert preference> think the mindset"
 
Reauland said:
You'd think this would be acknowledged. Instead, what we have today are large numbers of people who can't even recognize when they are being treated fairly, people who are so used to a "fixed game" that they cry foul when they're not given preferential treatment. Having worked in a service industry for a number of years, I can say in complete honesty that every time I've been called a racist, it's been in response to treating someone with absolutely the same courtesy, respect, and dignity as the dozen customers that came in before them. Yes, I know. This is called "playing the race card," but the fact that it can be and frequently is played for sheer shock value indicates, to me at least, a profound lack of respect for the blood, sweat, and tears of past generations of all colors of the spectrum.

How I find the above paragraphs to be a relevant response to our discussion of "systematic discrimination" lies in the fact that once the system is skewed in one direction, it takes a lot to shift it back to an even keel.
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I'm interested, but I don't quite understand how the first bolded piece connects to the second. I wholly agree that there are problems when a system designed to equalize is exploited by those who feel a falsely inflated sense of entitlement. What do you mean, though, when you say that once the system is skewed, it takes a lot to shift it back to an even keel? Is the system you're referencing here "systematic racism" or "affirmative action efforts?"

Reauland said:
Thank you for this discussion. I always welcome opportunities to discuss differing viewpoints and opinions with someone as intelligent and well-spoken as yourself and several other of this thread's contributors.
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Right back at you; I've been working out a lot of ideas through this discussion.
 
Valoran said:
What do you mean, though, when you say that once the system is skewed, it takes a lot to shift it back to an even keel? Is the system you're referencing here "systematic racism" or "affirmative action efforts?"
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On further reflection, "system" might be far too generic a term. What I'm referring to is actually an amalgam of factors, most notably Affirmative Action and something much more ephemeral than that - societal guilt/societal exploitation of said guilt. I'll do my best to explain what I mean.

I firmly believe that when you hear cries of racism, you're dealing with one of the following:

(1) (And by far most important) Someone who has, in fact, been a victim of racism.

(2) Someone who is used to preferential treatment and is unable to recognize when they are being treated equitably.

(3) Someone fully aware of the fact they are receiving fair treatment, but who has no moral qualms about dragging the bogeyman out of the closet to see where that might get them (to me, utterly reprehensible behavior).

Of those three, "the system," as I somewhat nebulously labeled it, is responsible for (2). For (3), keep reading.

Now, as to the societal aspects of "the system," let me attempt to explain how things look from where I stand. Other than the hate-filled bastards we all know are out there, you'd be hard-pressed to find any member of the percieved white community that doesn't feel regret and shame for the institution of slavery, acts of racism, segregation, the list goes on and on, but it's an abstract shame. It carries no weight on a personal level. Unfortunately, that's how every single person on the planet interracts - on the personal level. I'm going to attempt an analogy. It might be a poor one, but I hope it can help me express the remainder of my thoughts on the matter of how things have become skewed.

Analogy

Disclaimer: I'm trying my best to portray the characters of this little drama as just people, neither inherently good or bad, but, depending on the time of day and the angle of the light, capable of being percieved as either one.

20 years ago, your father, on his way home after one too many, rear-ended your neighbor's car. The cop that showed up to the accident just so happened to be a deacon at the church your family attended at the time. No words were exchanged between your father and the policeman, but with a subtle glance, perhaps a pat on the shoulder, your father was left with the impression that the "Good Ole Boy Network" had just kicked it up into high gear. The accident report was filed, no mention ever made of the fact that your father had been drinking. Your father never knows whether he was given a break or whether he just didn't appear to have been drinking, and the more time that passed, it became easier and easier just not to ask.

You neighbor was hurt quite badly in the accident, his injuries placing him on disability. Your father, feeling guilt over the incident, helps out as he's able, kicking in money here and there to help with mortgage payments, groceries, clothes for the kids, etc., but as is your neighbor's right to do, a lawsuit is filed, the outcome of which makes any continued out-of-pocket help your father might have provided a moot point. Of course, this has an impact on you as well. Money that might have otherwise been spent on you, your own education, is instead going to the neighbors, and as you grow older and wiser, rightfully so in your opinion. In fact, you don't really find out anything about this until you're in your twenties.

At this point, we flash forward 20 years. You're now in your forties, having done your best to overcome the adversity visited upon you by the incidents of your father's life. Now you have a place of your own, a family, and are justifiably proud of the fact that you've managed to provide well for your children who are preparing to be the first members of your family to attend college. The grandchild of your old neighbor shows up, dropping not so subtle hints that he's in a financial bind and plucking artfully at the strings of familial guilt that not all the time and money in the world could ever fully still.

Would you feel guilty? Would you resent him for making you feel so?

In this analogy, "You" represents my attempt to bring cultural views down to a more personal level. I strongly feel that many in what is percieved to be the "white community" aren't much different than "You" - still feeling a degree of guilt, resentful of instances when we feel it's being played upon, and wondering when enough is enough. When are the poor conditions of urban areas going to stop being thrust at us as something for which we are solely responsible? Even if that's not the way it's intended to be viewed, it's almost certainly how we feel it is being portrayed. When do we get an acknowledgement of the fact that the sword of Damocles dangling above our heads is in fact a peril to all of society?
 
I've read this, but I don't have time to draft a response just now, as I'm on my break at work. I do think there may be a problem in that the focus on points 2 and 3 has to be maintained fairly strongly in order to argue for a reduction of societal guilt (all of this may be appropriate). It may, however, be in tension with point 1, which I think needs further exposition. Is point 1 to be abetted by a societal sense of responsibility that takes into account the historical phenomenon? I don't have time to think through the analogy, and I'm curious how the vein of the deacon and the drinking are functioning there, but I'm afraid I'll have to look at all that later; this was just my initial critical lens. I do agree with your quick breakdown to the 1-2-3 system, though.
 
I haven't read more than the first few posts, so forgive me if the thread has derailed into something different already.



Me and my friends call each other ******s all the time. We use it like an insult, same as fag or fuck-face or what have you. None of my friends are black btw, no one I know irl anyway. I have a few black friends from the game, and I call them ******s too. I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a word, no worse than fuck or cunt.
******s use the word all the time, so to say that I can't use it because of the color of my skin...? Well that's more racist than the word itself.
 
Excalibur said:
I haven't read more than the first few posts, so forgive me if the thread has derailed into something different already.



Me and my friends call each other ******s all the time. We use it like an insult, same as fag or fuck-face or what have you. None of my friends are black btw, no one I know irl anyway. I have a few black friends from the game, and I call them ******s too. I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a word, no worse than fuck or cunt.
******s use the word all the time, so to say that I can't use it because of the color of my skin...? Well that's more racist than the word itself.
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Wow Exc for once we kind of agree, well aside from the part where you call people you know IG ******s
 
Excalibur said:
I haven't read more than the first few posts, so forgive me if the thread has derailed into something different already.



Me and my friends call each other ******s all the time. We use it like an insult, same as fag or fuck-face or what have you. None of my friends are black btw, no one I know irl anyway. I have a few black friends from the game, and I call them ******s too. I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a word, no worse than fuck or cunt.
******s use the word all the time, so to say that I can't use it because of the color of my skin...? Well that's more racist than the word itself.
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I'm pretty sure this runs into the same KIND of response as claiming that you should have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. There are social circumstances that prevent it from being just a word. People take specific meanings from it, and you don't seem to be claiming to be ignorant of those meanings.

I'm not sure anyone's made the claim that select groups CAN'T use the word; but you will wind up being held responsible for the reactions to it, and those reactions can't be answered very easily by the claim "this is a word that is not more loaded than others." It is more loaded, and the cultural standards are different.
 
Excalibur said:
I haven't read more than the first few posts, so forgive me if the thread has derailed into something different already.



Me and my friends call each other ******s all the time. We use it like an insult, same as fag or fuck-face or what have you. None of my friends are black btw, no one I know irl anyway. I have a few black friends from the game, and I call them ******s too. I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a word, no worse than fuck or cunt.
******s use the word all the time, so to say that I can't use it because of the color of my skin...? Well that's more racist than the word itself.
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I'm pretty sure this runs into the same KIND of response as claiming that you should have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. There are social circumstances that prevent it from being just a word. People take specific meanings from it, and you don't seem to be claiming to be ignorant of those meanings.

I'm not sure anyone's made the claim that select groups CAN'T use the word; but you will wind up being held responsible for the reactions to it, and those reactions can't be answered very easily by the claim "this is a word that is not more loaded than others." It is more loaded, and the cultural standards are different.
 
What I never got, even when I asked my english teacher while we were on the subject of racism is: Why is it that racists words for every culture/race/whatever are all so horrible except for white people. I mean we get the words 'wanker' and 'cracker' where as black people get ni99er, orientals get ch!nk and so on.
 
Valoran said:
I'm pretty sure this runs into the same KIND of response as claiming that you should have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. There are social circumstances that prevent it from being just a word. People take specific meanings from it, and you don't seem to be claiming to be ignorant of those meanings.

I'm not sure anyone's made the claim that select groups CAN'T use the word; but you will wind up being held responsible for the reactions to it, and those reactions can't be answered very easily by the claim "this is a word that is not more loaded than others." It is more loaded, and the cultural standards are different.
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You know that is a good point you make there. I suppose it is worse than fuck, to the "some" people. It's not like I say it in public around black people that I don't know - unless they happen to really be pissin me off. As far as consequenses go, who's gonna do anything about it? A black dude who gets offended by it? Yeah...right, I'd like to see em try.
 
Solan said:
What I never got, even when I asked my english teacher while we were on the subject of racism is: Why is it that racists words for every culture/race/whatever are all so horrible except for white people. I mean we get the words 'wanker' and 'cracker' where as black people get ni99er, orientals get ch!nk and so on.
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White people have to live with the fact their children want to be another race. Rock and roll was a black thing, white people wanted to be black, so they took it. It is starting in rap, they have started rice rocketing with the chanks, and have been wearing ben davies and cut off dickies trying to be mexican for years.

What more shame can you possibly put on the white race?
 
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So trying to be black is what I have been doing my whole life? Wow, I don't even know myself. Can I say the N word now? lol
 
well, its for white people now, they abondoned the form and moved on to shooting people and fucking bitches and hoes.
 
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