Kiting adds on BST.

[Zethren]

Fire, I'm saying BST would tank until pets are on Faf. Then, most likely logout to goet rid of hate then go at it with a pet like the rest.

Why use pets as DD?
Because they are good DD and make up for the TP gain in HP that simple. Are you going to imply that a T or VT pet doesn't do good DD? Tiamat is killed with DCs and EPs.

I said complications are obviously the fact that CC will do anything to make us wipe. There are ways of overcoming that by sheer numbers of bst in the zone making sure nothing gets stolen (pet wise). I don't have an easy answer for that.

I'm going to go back to what I've said before, when it comes to things a BST alliance has never actually come together to do, people have always said : can't happen, won't happen unless its glaringly obvious. Yet, we do it anyway. So once again, as ive said before, it will just have to be done, tried, whatever, thats the only way people can ever believe anything.

Well before it can happen or try you have to work out some kind of plan right?
Don't mean to throw any bricks at anyone. Just had a few questions come up in my head that maybe some BSTs can clear up on the topic of Fafnir.


Can BSTS keep the mob fully claimed? If it turns yellow even for a bit, you better belive it that some of the LS there will try to take it from you.

Regarding charmed pets, ofcorse some people will try and kill any charmable things. When that happens, you will just use jugs?

Having 18 Melee on Fafnir I am pretty sure will produce quite a few Wings. How will The BST themselves deal will the damage? Will the 200-400ish MP(the WHm sub bsts) pool be enough to recover? Maybe you'll have 1 tick Refresh(correct me, can you have more as BST alone?)

Without being able to sleep it, how will you recover MP, HP, raise dead members? Surely you will not be able to rest much with all the Wings going off from the 18 Melee(just counting pets)

Not trying to point someone out, but these are some of the things you have to deal with when fighting Fafnir where you don't have luxury of infitine time like with Tiamat and Jorm.

Thanks ^^

 

[Courtney]

Well before it can happen or try you have to work out some kind of plan right?
Don't mean to throw any bricks at anyone. Just had a few questions come up in my head that maybe some BSTs can clear up on the topic of Fafnir.


Can BSTS keep the mob fully claimed? If it turns yellow even for a bit, you better belive it that some of the LS there will try to take it from you.

Regarding charmed pets, ofcorse some people will try and kill any charmable things. When that happens, you will just use jugs?

Having 18 Melee on Fafnir I am pretty sure will produce quite a few Wings. How will The BST themselves deal will the damage? Will the 200-400ish MP(the WHm sub bsts) pool be enough to recover? Maybe you'll have 1 tick Refresh(correct me, can you have more as BST alone?)

Without being able to sleep it, how will you recover MP, HP, raise dead members? Surely you will not be able to rest much with all the Wings going off from the 18 Melee(just counting pets)

Not trying to point someone out, but these are some of the things you have to deal with when fighting Fafnir where you don't have luxury of infitine time like with Tiamat and Jorm.

Thanks ^^

A single BST would lose claim when changing pets, but I wouldn't think a BST alliance would. I'm not sure what would happen if the pet with aggro was released (maybe someone from the flock would know, as they do a fair bit of alliance stuff).

I'd think that the wing spam would be a serious problem for the BSTs, as there is almost nowhere to hide from them in the Aery. On Tiamat, the BSTs can be out of range of the wings for much of the time, but not on Fafnir. Normally mellee on Fafnir is kept to a minimum, as it's wing is it's most dangerous ability (after flail).

There are only 6 Flies in the part of the Aery where Fafnir spawns, and they're on 14 or 16min respawns. Any other pets would require BSTs stationed outside the pit bringing pets to the pit for the fighting BSTs. (Pets are also L76-L79 so some may not last too long).

 

[Mattaru]

Communication. First all pets are kept on feet of Faf like any other alliance. If you need to swap say so and leave your pets, try not to have mass swapping at any time. If a player does not melee or cast w/n range Faf will not focus on you, it will focus on another pet.

Things that hurt BSTs in alliance are the loss of many pets at once, hate reset abilities, and Invincible. Otherwise it just takes discipline.

Zethren, Id be more worried about Wing than flail. Ive been wanting to actually watch a Faf fight first hand for awhile just to find out best places for BSTs to stand etc. (BST would not melee with pets so if there is a safe place for BST to stand out of wing range, I doubt there is, but I currently do not know).

Keeping it claimed isn't an issue so much. As long as everyone is blockaided and a few pets are on it, it will stay claimed. I've never had an NM come unclaimed, even when doing it with 5 BST only.

Edit: Courtney saved me a trip to the aery tonight. Pet wrangling would be a must, not continuous but at least for the initial round of fighting.

 

[Courtney]

Ive been wanting to actually watch a Faf fight first hand for awhile just to find out best places for BSTs to stand etc. (BST would not melee with pets so if there is a safe place for BST to stand out of wing range, I doubt there is, but I currently do not know).

Typically Fafnir is fought with its nose up against the wall of the Aery. In that case there's a spot in the opposite end of the Aery where you won't get hit by Wing. The problem is that you will have to spend all of your time moving your pets in Wing range, and 18 pets will be a huge amount of wings (for example we generally fight Fafnir with two tanks and two mellees, more than this means trouble if it does a few wings in a row as it's TP moves)

 

[Mattaru]

Check your PMs courtney ~~

 

[Fonzy]

My assertation was that the new claim system limits our ability "to claim and kite multiple mobs that already have aggro on other people (ie adds)", because you can no longer claim a mob with aggro on someone else with one hit. It had nothing to do with kiting a single mob, as you would have realised if you'd read all of the thread..

No see, I was listening, you were being specific to tiamat and saying BST can't kite adds there cause of the new claim system, this assumes 2 things, that all kited mobs will be from agro and that BST has a difficult time claiming agro'd mobs, you never mentioned multiple in your post, if you did, quote yourself and I'll apologize for misunderstanding. The difficulty you point out in claiming agro'd mobs is absurd as I said(as the new rule works on provoke just as much as any other claiming job ability), I've kited multiple Executioner antlions outside of alliance on Alastor antlion in the past, and though it might take some effort, it can be done very effectively and save an entire alliance from wiping. All done by one individual instead of a clear party.

You still haven't provided any examples of fights where BST (bar the Tiamat fights, which most acknowledge BST is excellent at) should be included in an endgame alliance. If you're claiming that BST can be ok at low HNMs like Serket and Simurgh, when you don't have a full alliance then I agree with you...

wow, and you said I didn't listen, shall I quote myself?
"For one, Sky, BST is one of the best DD's up there on gods and an exceptional puller for any of the pop NM's(MG is the only problem child, but I've done it). Haku, bomb queen, alastor antlion, Divine Might, Xoltol, Golden tongued to just name a few, are all NM's were we can be extremely useful."
but I guess none of that counts as endgame....

Unfortunately, hitting consistently for low damage IS a TP supply, and is very bad on most HNMs that are anything of a challenge. DRKs with Krakens are only used in very limited situations, and only where the group can survive the mob spamming TP moves, and usually when the DRK will kill the mob is a very short space of time.

lmao, so I guess King Vinagaroon, Absolute Virtue, Jailer of Love, etc don't qualify as challenging. The Dark/kraken club strategy has been employed on those mobs as well as numerous others succesfully, it's only limited by the amount of darks with krakens. There are also other mobs where tp build on them is really not that big of a deal(Behemoth for one, basically most kited mobs) or the mob acts outside the realm of traditional tp build rules, such as sky nm/gods and certain jailers. So your saying every endgame nm is extremely tp sensitive and that just isn't true. or if it isn't, it's an easy NM that anyone can kill and it isn't really endgame.

One thing I can tell you is that complete ignorance of the significance of mob TP has handed us more Fafnirs than I could count. You may not believe in mob TP, but the mobs do...

cause endgame is only wyrms and fafnir/nidhogg. Believe it or not, alot of the endgame community does neither :0 Your basically deciding the worth of an entire job on 4 NM's, 3 of which really aren't worth killing anyway. Sea is like a world unto itself, each mob has set rules so alot of jobs seem worthless at times. BST may have no place in your ls, that does not however mean it has no place in endgame as a whole

I believe that a BSTs strengths simply don't show in this environment, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

finally something we almost agree on, the TRUE strength of a BST is best demonstrated either solo or amongst other BST's, however, I feel that BST can be a very helpful tool in any endgame ls as well, if provided the chance to demonstrate their competence. perhaps we should just end this silly debate there and we can each keep believing what we do.

 

[Courtney]

I'm more curious if anyone has tried this to see how effective it is. It's a fairly simple concept imo, but may be going unnoticed. It basically a way to infinitely kite non NM adds while fighting HNM/NM etc.

The idea is to get a fairly buff pet from the area and just get it to get hate on all the adds, run, heel pet with all the adds maybe pop it a piece of food and logout/force dc. All adds depop with pet. Relog, rinse/repeat. Would be most effective to have one bst pick up as the other logs out though.

Thoughts are appreciated as well as any comments on whether or not people actually do this.

~taru

With the new(ish) claim/mpk rules, it's not that simple to get the attention of adds anymore. One hit no longer does it if a mob has hate on someone else. Repeated assaulting and recalling also gets you hate, and with the mobs beating on your pet, it loses hate pretty fast, and they then come after you.

You can depop one or two mobs, but you can't clear an area...

They're the first two posts in the thread, and they clearly refer to multiple adds. I could go through all of your nested quotes and show you where you've misread or misquoted them, but it's pointless because you're not interested in the issues and you don't read (or comprehend) the posts.

Once again, if you have any speficic end game areas where BSTs shine please post them (including details of the mob fought, a BSTs tactics, and why a BST is a valuable member of the alliance), and you can help all BSTs. I have no interest in getting into a fight with you when you aren't even willing to read the posts.

 

[Mattaru]

They're the first two posts in the thread, and they clearly refer to multiple adds. I could go through all of your nested quotes and show you where you've misread or misquoted them, but it's pointless because you're not interested in the issues and you don't read (or comprehend) the posts.

Once again, if you have any speficic end game areas where BSTs shine please post them (including details of the mob fought, a BSTs tactics, and why a BST is a valuable member of the alliance), and you can help all BSTs. I have no interest in getting into a fight with you when you aren't even willing to read the posts.

If this is at me....

I posted later on some things I've noticed, pulling hate on multiple mobs becomes problematic not necesarrily because of hate cemented on one character, which is possible, my original response was that for instance if you are dealing with a mob that has been slept multiple times or dealt with in another way to deal with an add, it would obviously be problematic to try and grab hate because you are trying to use two different strategies at once. The main problem is the ability of one pet to keep hate on multiple mobs and not the master, unless the pet is relatively strong compared to the adds. The only way you can depop the area is if you are dealing with linking mobs because it doesnt require the BST to generate hate with ja's in order to distract them.

But I don't think this is at me....

 

[Courtney]

Lol, no Mat. It's directed to the first paragraph of Fonzy's last post...