Leibfrid... >.<

[Taurothar]

I wish I had grabbed a screenshot but he openly admitted to buying 2 million gil because of this thread. Just wanted to update it a bit. He was "farming" in valkurm as a WAR/THF with full subjob. He was talking to me for a bit, he seems like an ok guy but his gear isn't that wonderful.

 

[Eni]

yeah....... he's on my short list of "do not invite this person again"

with the price of sole sushi going up.... i really dont want to waste anymore gil/money

hope he changes

 

[Sethala]

Well frankly, I have no problems with people buying gil (unless they then spend that gil on overpriced NM items and wind up raising the price for the rest of us... but just because you buy gil doesn't mean you do that, and vice versa). Actually, if he bought gil so he could actually have some decent food/gear, I'd be happy (again, as long as he doesn't jack up the price of rare items in the process). One less gimp on this server.

 

[wolfskymoon]

I do and i also have problem with people who have no problem with people buying gil.It means u are retarded fuck who wants to buy gil to mm i dunno lol just have good gear and thats no fun at all.And then teh gil buying bastards don't care about gil.... while i was farming my ass off on slime oils and shit.they bid a 2 mill of hauberk walahh!!!

 

[Konartist]

I do and i also have problem with people who have no problem with people buying gil.It means u are retarded fuck who wants to buy gil to mm i dunno lol just have good gear and thats no fun at all.And then teh gil buying bastards don't care about gil.... while i was farming my ass off on slime oils and shit.they bid a 2 mill of hauberk walahh!!!

huh? :?:

 

[Sethala]

Wolf, your stupidity continues to amaze me.

I didn't say that I buy gil. I don't - I've worked for everything I have in this game (although some quitting friends did give me some gil... >.> ). But if someone is unable (or unwilling) to spend long ammounts of time farming and would rather buy the gil online, then as long as they spend that gil responsibly (read: don't buy overpriced junk at the AH and wind up forcing inflation to go up even higher), I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with, though, are people that say they can't afford good gear and use that as an excuse to party wearing complete junk. If you're too lazy to go farm, then I have no reason to party with you.

 

[Seawolf]

The moment he recieved gil from the seller, the inflation got a little bit worse (just simple economics thinking here), unless he used all that gil to buy items from NPC (which he didn't). How he spent his gil in AH has nothing to do with inflation, it just affected the price of the items he bought.

Now Seth, you refuse to party with someone who is too lazy to farm. Ok, fair enough. That guy who bought gil is still too lazy to farm (unless you count navigating IGE website as "farming"), but you're ok with that? I don't see the logic here.

And keep in mind, as with all games (video game, sports, etc...):

If it isn't fair it isn't fun.

 

[Sethala]

A few things...

First off, hin buyinig gil didn't necesarially cause inflation. If the gilsellers got their gil from NPCs, then the act of him buying it isn't what created the gil. If the gilsellers got it from players, then they took that gil out of the economy before he brought it back in, so there's no change.

Kind of a fine line, but the way I see it, the gilsellers are doing something that any normal player could do to earn money (although some of the things they do are very underhanded, but that's a different topic), so just because they are gilsellers doesn't mean they're automatically on my hate list (for more examples of that, see Charcoip's topic on the flameboard).

As for being too lazy to farm... I think I'm being mis-quoted here. I don't really care how he got his money (as long as he wasn't cheating to get it - in this case, I don't consider buying gil to be "cheating", I'm referring to things like MPK and NM-stealing), just as long as he has it. I would rather party with a good player that just happens to get gil from IGE as opposed to farming than someone who doesn't have any gil, period.

And yes, that is a really fine line, for what I accept and what I don't. But I do think there are some, albeit rare, "good" excuses to buy gil online as opposed to earning it.

 

[Mistaya]

The moment he recieved gil from the seller, the inflation got a little bit worse.

Explain this to me. It makes no sense. Unless IGE has scripted a money-generator (lol.) the money already existed on the server. Whose hands it was in have no bearing on inflation, at least by my basic understanding of economics.

By that logic any time someone kills a beastman or uses [mug] they are causing inflation.

Stop the witchhunting, the gillsellers/buyers are not the cause of everything bad in this game.

 

[Seawolf]

Ok, let me explain it:

First, we need to know that the amount of gil IGE has is considered "outside" the money circulation because they don't purchase items with it.
We must also note that the prices of items reflect the ratio between the total amount of money and the total amount of items in the market.

IGE gets their fund from 2 sources:

1. From PCs: the gilsellers farm items, rare NM drops, etc and sell them to PCs for money. In this case, they're taking the players' money (which is inside the circulation) and put it into their bank (which is outside the circulation). As a result, less money is being circulated in the market, thus reducing the inflation (or causing deflation).

2. From NPCs: the gilsellers farm items and sell them to NPCs for money. Example: the 24/24 fishermen who fish up countless amount of rusty caps, which are handed to the gilseller-crafters (like Lloo in Bastok who has Smithing in the 80s) to make padded cap/strong cap which are then sold to NPCs for money (not as good as rusty-fishing pre-nerf but still decent). This generates a very large amount of money. This money, however, is still in IGE's bank and outside of the market.

Imagine that there is a total of 100mil being circulated in the market. When a person buys 5 millions gil, that 5 millions goes from IGE's bank to the market. The market now has 105 millions gil in the flow, and since the amount of items available in the market remains the same right before and after the purchase, items' prices rise 5%.

If the gilsellers got it from players, then they took that gil out of the economy before he brought it back in, so there's no change.

That only applies to source(1), there is also source(2) to consider. Besides, if he didn't bring the money back in, there would be deflation, which is good for the economy right now. The gilsellers are generating money at a faster rate than generating items. An average player cannot bring in that much money.

I don't consider buying gil to be "cheating"

You got things reversed. Stealing is stealing, MPKing is MPKing, they're not called "cheating". Gilbuying is cheating, just like how you pay others to do your Math homeworks.

I would rather party with a good player that just happens to get gil from IGE as opposed to farming than someone who doesn't have any gil

I wouldn't party with either of them. But if I'm forced to choose one, I would choose the gimped person.

I prefer honest people, sorry.

PS. Nobody is witchhunting in this thread, we're discussing.

 

[Ryuoho]

I would have to side with Seawolf on this one

 

[Sethala]

A few things...

About economy and inflation: alright, yeah, I see your point with getting gil from NPCs. You've got me on that point, I think.

About gilbuying being "cheating": when I said that, I was referring to my earlier statement that I didn't care how he got his money, as long as he wasn't cheating to get it. In that case, when I said "cheating", I meant things like MPK or NM-stealing, as I consider those things worse than buying/selling gil.

Yes, I know it's a fine line.

About who I party with: well yeah, I'd rather not party with either of them, as well. But, sadly, we DRK don't get very many party invites, so I can't really be too picky about who I party with. So, if I had to choose, I'd rather have a skilled player that happens to buy gil than party with an "honest moron", as I would get more exp with the gilbuyer.

 

[Mistaya]

First, we need to know that the amount of gil IGE has is considered "outside" the money circulation because they don't purchase items with it.

Your entire argument is based on this one point, a point which I will have to disagree with. If this were the case, yes you are pretty much right about the inflation/deflation.

However I do not think that you can consider the gill IGE has to be out of circulation. If it was out of circulation IGE would be out of business. They want to move their currency as fast as they can into player's pockets, NOT hold onto it. You are looking at IGE like a bank. A bank wants to keep the currency it has and add more to itself. That is simply not the case with IGE or any other e-currency seller. IGE is not a bank, think of it like a retail store. The gill is a product. They manufacture it with fishbots and sell it. Every gill sitting in their vault is unsold product, they MUST keep selling or go out of business.

 

[Claxton]

I do and i also have problem with people who have no problem with people buying gil.It means u are retarded fuck who wants to buy gil to mm i dunno lol just have good gear and thats no fun at all.And then teh gil buying bastards don't care about gil.... while i was farming my ass off on slime oils and shit.they bid a 2 mill of hauberk walahh!!!

huh? :?:

He's saying he has a problem with people who don't have a problem with gilbuyers. It means you are a retarded fuck who wants them to buy gil so you get a good player. lol just have good gear and thats no fun at all. And gil buying bastards don't give a fuck about how much gil they have to spend. I was farming my ass of for a hauby and some one bid 2 mil for a hauberk walahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

translated. And he actually has a damn good point, as gilbuyers do tend to bid whatever the said item is priced as, even if its above what it usually sells at. Since they'll just go buy more gil :?

 

[Claxton]

Translation update:

lol just have good gear and thats no fun at all

farming the entire time for good gear isn't fun.

 

[Mistaya]

as gilbuyers do tend to bid whatever the said item is priced as, even if its above what it usually sells at. Since they'll just go buy more gil

This logic is flawed. If a person spends real money on gill don't you think they would value that gill just as much if not more than a person who farmed it? Change your quote to:

People with obscene amounts of gill who value time over gill tend to bid whatever the said item is priced at even if it is above what it usually sells at. Since they have plenty of gill.

And shouldn't partial blame be placed on the greedy sons of bitches who listed it at the higher price anyways? :?

I can't believe some of you guys honestly think that every single price raise, every time you can't get something for listed price for the last year, is the fault of a gillbuyer/seller. :wink:

 

[Claxton]

I'm just the translator lol. I want to make that clear.

 

[Konartist]

as gilbuyers do tend to bid whatever the said item is priced as, even if its above what it usually sells at. Since they'll just go buy more gil

This logic is flawed. If a person spends real money on gill don't you think they would value that gill just as much if not more than a person who farmed it? Change your quote to:

People with obscene amounts of gill who value time over gill tend to bid whatever the said item is priced at even if it is above what it usually sells at. Since they have plenty of gill.

And shouldn't partial blame be placed on the greedy sons of bitches who listed it at the higher price anyways? :?

I can't believe some of you guys honestly think that every single price raise, every time you can't get something for listed price for the last year, is the fault of a gillbuyer/seller. :wink:

answer to whats in bold: No because most of the gil buyers, I believe are getting the gil bought for them. i.e. mommy or daddy so they don't value it as much.

 

[Mistaya]

Thats a fairly large assumption. I thought the playerbase for ffxi was generally older than the 'live with mom and dad' years but I could be wrong. That is not a large group of people. I think IGE would have gone out of business long ago if they were selling primarily to kids via parents. In fact I call total bullshit on this the more I think about it.

IGE sells to the guy who works all week and wants to have fun on the weekend in his game but doesnt have the time to farm millions of gill. Thats my honest opinion.

You ask ANY kid who plays this game and I'll bet money they had to pull teeth to get their parents to pay the monthly fee. Or pay it themselves with allowance or job. Real money for fake money? Hell no!

Fact is we have no data. No one knows the average age of a gill-buyer. No one knows the average amount of gill bought. No one knows the average spending rate of said gill-buyers. Any assumptions we make about the subject are just that. And they are more wild guesses and speculation than anything. I'm just saying stop blaming the gillsellers/buyers for everything that goes wrong in your game and open your eyes. There are a lot of problems with the in game economy, but not all of them stem from gill-buying or selling. That is all.

 

[Seawolf]

If it was out of circulation IGE would be out of business. They want to move their currency as fast as they can into player's pockets, NOT hold onto it.[/b]

You're missing my point here. The money IGE *currently* have is *temporarily* out of circulation. IGE is not out of business because gilbuyers are bringing the money into the market.

You are looking at IGE like a bank. A bank wants to keep the currency it has and add more to itself. That is simply not the case with IGE or any other e-currency seller. IGE is not a bank, think of it like a retail store. The gill is a product. They manufacture it with fishbots and sell it. Every gill sitting in their vault is unsold product, they MUST keep selling or go out of business.

Same thing, read above.

This logic is flawed. If a person spends real money on gill don't you think they would value that gill just as much if not more than a person who farmed it?

Your logic is flawed. They don't value gil as much as a person who farmed it. Why?
40$ = 1 million
In RL: 40$ = 5 hours of work max.
In FFXI: 1 million = 20 hours of work (take 50k/hour as average).

People with obscene amounts of gill who value time over gill tend to bid whatever the said item is priced at even if it is above what it usually sells at. Since they have plenty of gill.

I know gilbuyers are not the only ones who bid at whatever the prices are. But then again Claxton never said gilbuyers were the only ones :wink:

I can't believe some of you guys honestly think that every single price raise, every time you can't get something for listed price for the last year, is the fault of a gillbuyer/seller.

We don't think gilbuyers are the cause of all problems. You assumed that. There are other factors which cause inflation. But we're discussing about gilbuyers, are we not? :wink:

It doesn't matter what age, sex, profession the gilbuyers have. Just because you work hard in RL doesn't mean your act of cheating is justified.

PS. @Sethala: gimped =/= moron. There are just as many gimped morons as gilbuying morons.