Live and Let Die Jamal Pt. 2

[jamal]

I think he was just refering to the point system rather than the whole shell, that's clearly not the case where ZNMs are concerned. Why are you being so confrontational, as far as i'm aware there's not a whole lot of dedicated ZNM shells on our server, surely it would be more helpful to remain on good terms with one-another so we can help each other out if & when the need arises.

Read End-game discussion ZNM threads. I have been helpful to all other ZNM shells, him specifically. I explained why the point system didn't fail to him calmly the post before this, and he responded saying why our system failed. He did the confrontation, I'm responding accordingly.

 

[jamal]

Also, check the title of the thread. Anything said in derogatory manner to me in this thread should be taken as a flame. He continued posting in here to rebump a thread that was bumped by Hexx. If he wants civility, he shouldn't be posting in the flameboard about the 'downfalls' of our shell.

 

[Mirewen]

No its not Jamal likes driving people to homicidal thoughts

Didn't you say it was just a game? Maybe you should take a few days off if someone in said game can lead you to be homicidal.

 

[Shady]

You shouldn't really be talking about a shell 'failing' when we've been doing this more effectively than you, for longer than you, and writing half the strategies your shell is using to attempt tier IV's.

Can't believe you said my shell fails, rofl. Fucking tool.

I never said anything about your shell failing. I said in this instance, where 2 people have the same attendance one wouldn't get priority over the other in my shell like they would in yours just because they can use the item. I said in that particular instance a points system fails. And technically, you haven't been doing ZNM longer than me, I've just had this shell for about 8 weeks, I've been doing ZNM since it came out. Not like that really means anything.

If he wants civility, he shouldn't be posting in the flameboard about the 'downfalls' of our shell.

I honestly thought this thread was dead lol. Was just bumping Auron's post to shed new light that there are other non-points based systems that work really well. And I'm going to talk to some of the shell leaders in my group~ maybe your way of zerging would be more beneficial than the system of getting to T3/T4 in a few weeks who knows. Not sure if it would work with the lotting system we have in place though... have to give that some thought. (oh right this is the flameboard, fucking TOOL!) j/k

 

[Shady]

That point was about gearing from tier III's. To get to your haidate, you need to kill all tier III's. Meaning, you can't just spam what people want from that path the most, achamoth. You need a balance. To get that balance, YOYD won't work. Find me some non-ra/ex gear with the exception of Organics (which shouldn't be this expensive) that sells consistently over a mil

You make it sound like all we do is Achamoth in the hopes of getting organics to drop so the person that popped it can make a quick mil.. Whoever said anything about spamming what people want most from 1 path? Yes, Achamoth is commonly done by several people.. in one night. And then we move on to the next T3. We wouldn't have T4 pops if people just centered on spamming Achamoth for the organics, or Dea for the legs or Gears for the feet...

...as i'm aware there's not a whole lot of dedicated ZNM shells on our server, surely it would be more helpful to remain on good terms with one-another so we can help each other out if & when the need arises

Two things, one I'm not on your server I transferred to Ifrit years ago (Jroc's a good friend of mine from quetz) and two, Jamal has been helpful but this

..Writing half the strategies your shell is using to attempt tier IV's.

would be another huge exaggeration. You helped give feedback on Tinnin but didn't give strategy; Ladykiki did. Same with Sarameye; Neisan gave strategy.. in fact I haven't seen any strategy from you other than the tinnin post about DD pulling away from nerve gas, about as helpful as saying "DD shouldn't be in range of fulmination."

 

[Rappa]

Bumping a topic on the Flameboard for serious discussion isn't a very good idea. If you want to discuss the finer points of running a znm shell, go do it on the znm board. Like Jamal said, he posts actively there and you can carry out a serious discussion without it degrading into flames. Not to mention I'm just tired of seeing Jamal flames on the flameboard every day when I check qcdn, it's pretty boring now.

 

[Rappa]

Neisan gave strategy..

Neisan's in SNB..

 

[Shady]

I fail at quoting; last one is Jamal not Bladewind~

 

[jamal]

Two things, one I'm not on your server I transferred to Ifrit years ago (Jroc's a good friend of mine from quetz) and two, Jamal has been helpful but this


would be another huge exaggeration. You helped give feedback on Tinnin but didn't give strategy; Ladykiki did. Same with Sarameye; Neisan gave strategy.. in fact I haven't seen any strategy from you other than the tinnin post about DD pulling away from nerve gas, about as helpful as saying "DD shouldn't be in range of fulmination."

You're right, I haven't done any help at all:

When stun is resisted, it's not worth counting on. As Sano has said, it builds a resistance, but what hasn't been said is there an unstunnable pattern as well.

The biggest problem with Sara is that hate is reset every 3-5 minutes when he goes into the pattern:

Howl (Hate reset)
Ululation (Para AOE Huge Range)
Firaga III (or Gates of Hades <25%)
Hoplon
Howl (Hate reset)

As I mentioned, he is completely immune to stun here, and also resets hate on the entire alliance. This makes ensuring that very little damage is done by Gates or Firaga III EXTREMELY important, so that tanks can easily recover hate without too much mob movement. This is also why I'd recommend WHM+BRD in any melee party as well for the additional fire resist. Sara is all about surviving enough to do damage, properly geared, it can't do much damage to you whatsoever.

As for the other mobs, Tinnin is slightly more difficult than it's Hydra counterpart, as Crit's are not the key to winning. It gains an incredible regen whenever it loses a head, so it's almost easier to not kill the heads. Tyger (Khim) is manageable only because of the area you fight in having a cliff to avoid the weaponskills it uses, much like the normal fight.

Tinnin uses draw-in + immediate WS, you're not going to want to kite. If you have a full alliance, 2x's PLD/NIN with SC + MB dmg works well (Tinnin isn't highly resistant to magic dmg like Hydra).

Otherwise he can be DD tanked (used MNK + WAR combo once with Subtle Blow + Crit Rolls with THF in tank party), however if one DD is decidedly stronger than the other and holds the majority of hate, you can run into trouble.

PW Items seem to be 20-25% with TH4, we've gotten 2 sara's out of 8 kills, 1/6 on Tinnin, 1/3 (maybe more kills, can't remember off the top of my head).

Just to note, because of his pattern you can prep for Nerve Gas. He will always use physical / magical shield immediately prior to nerve gas. If melee see the shield animation they can even run out of range. The sooner the curse is removed the better, so having one whm on each tank to 'Cursna' > Cure V > Poisona can make this easily avoidable.

Melee just need to be smart, and if not mid-skillchain to run away as soon as the Shield is started.

The above is the one you referenced. This is HIGHLY valuable information if you'd like cut down on fight-time.

What Jamal said. I'm usually casting Cursna right about the same time Tinnin is using Nerve Gas so the tank I'm in charge of is uncursed and Cure V'd in about 5 seconds tops. Just follow it up with a quick Poisona and everything's back to normal again.

He did it Auron. I was fully resisting it though, that's why we changed strat. (This is in reference to spike flail move, Scorching Lash)

I'd recommend against Num+1, Koenig shield will save you more than that will.

And yea, 174 is my cap, but I don't use all of it. 152 is the amount I use when fighting.

Weapon: Hrotti
Shield: Koenig
Ranged: Cerb Bow
Head: IR (or Ribbon for chainspell)
Neck: Bubu Gorget
Ear: Triumph and/or Ruby's
Body: Assault Breastplate (Easily the best piece of the fire set)
Hands: IR
Rings: malflame + Ruby / Triumph
Back: Cerb Mantle
Waist: Water Belt
Legs: W.legs
Feet: IR

That's what goal should be, and I wouldn't backtank it without everything there. Also, Sara has a 100% crit rate when hitting tank behind it, so be careful trying this.

Edit: Rappa's Barspells eclipse that number because of merits as well Dowzer. I believe it was 119ish

Yea, it worked. 3 kills ranging from 20-30 minutes.

Tank pt = PLD/NIN PLD/NIN WHM RDM BRD SAM/THF


Sam/thf Tank ->{Sarameya}--> Tank


Sam has a decent fire resist set, nothing spectacular needed because bar+carol will be active, after first howl unloads a SATA ws on backtank to keep hate while pld's hold hate tools. If Aga III or GOH gets off before SAM is out of range fire resist will keep his damage minimal. After second howl pld's can unload hate tools to keep mob at bay. This ensures that hate loss won't happen with the howls. We used an outside whm pt (2whm Cor + RDM) with each focused on a tank. Worked pretty flawlessly assuming you can keep 300+ resist.

Now, the quote you're talking about from Neisan:

Be prepared if you need to zombie him, and make sure anyone not sacrificing themselves to keep him zombied is more than 30' away.


Well, the idea is have tanks back to ledge and Tyger in front of them with mages on cliff, but apparently if he moves for any odd reason, he will hit the top of the ledge (The amount of the ledge hit may vary; Several mages at the very front were hit but those a few steps back were not). This in the event of a worst case scenario though, and you shouldn't have too many problems as long as he doesn't Fulminate anyone other than your tanks/perhaps a few DD, but they should have cleared his radius near the time Fulmination is about to hit anyway.


Can't say more since apparently I only saw Tyger's worst the day I went >.<

Neisan's a member of my shell...where do you think he got this from.

 

[Hmkiroko]

Oh boy, that looks like a wealth of information to me.

Oh, I'm in his shell too.

 

[Courtney]

I never said anything about your shell failing. I said in this instance, where 2 people have the same attendance one wouldn't get priority over the other in my shell like they would in yours just because they can use the item. I said in that particular instance a points system fails. And technically, you haven't been doing ZNM longer than me, I've just had this shell for about 8 weeks, I've been doing ZNM since it came out. Not like that really means anything.

Did you really just say you'd give an item to someone who can't use it over someone who can?

 

[Tymon]

Personally, I think the fairest possible rule for something like this where you're popping something that you earned the pop set for would be for said popping person to have their choice at one dropped item (assuming they either can, or will soon be able to use it) and the rest of the drops (if in a LS, incl. trigger) going to the LS' specific and individual lotting rules.

In this case, with ZNM, if the zeni used to pop the mob was gained with a large joint effort of taking photos, I don't think that there should be any singularity at all, everyone got the zeni, everyone should have a chance.

 

[jamal]

Personally, I think the fairest possible rule for something like this where you're popping something that you earned the pop set for would be for said popping person to have their choice at one dropped item (assuming they either can, or will soon be able to use it) and the rest of the drops (if in a LS, incl. trigger) going to the LS' specific and individual lotting rules.

In this case, with ZNM, if the zeni used to pop the mob was gained with a large joint effort of taking photos, I don't think that there should be any singularity at all, everyone got the zeni, everyone should have a chance.

So you'd be ok with someone showing up to every event, popping 3 of his own (18k+ total zeni) who goes 0/3 watching as someone who does 6k zeni be able to lot it and having no chance because of YPYD.

It's a cumulative effort, the people continually helping deserve the most benefits. I'm not saying this to enforce myself getting items...I wasn't the first with organics nor with aurum boots. People decided they wanted them more than I did, and people with high attendance / zeni farming were able to get them without question of the validity.

 

[Shady]

Did you really just say you'd give an item to someone who can't use it over someone who can?

Ya, for the reason Tymon states. If they earn it they should get it, which is how my shell works. Several organics have been sold for cash over people that can use it. They didn't pop it, thems the rules~

 

[Rappa]

In this case, with ZNM, if the zeni used to pop the mob was gained with a large joint effort of taking photos, I don't think that there should be any singularity at all, everyone got the zeni, everyone should have a chance.

Again not that it's really anyone's business, but snb gives out extra points to people who use their zeni to pop something. So it's not like they aren't getting an advantage by using zeni. It works best for everyone that way as it discourages people from solely showing up for the one thing they want but also rewards the people willing to farm up a bunch of zeni to help us complete sets.

 

[jamal]

Ya, for the reason Tymon states. If they earn it they should get it, which is how my shell works. Several organics have been sold for cash over people that can use it. They didn't pop it, thems the rules~

You completely ignored my response to it too...and my post above completely degrading your previous arguments.

Think it's time for you to just stay on Ifrit and stay out of our threads.

 

[Myrrh]

I really don't get that. Why would you sell a Organics over someone that could use it? Wouldn't it help the shell more if you had an extra 7 Organics?

 

[Courtney]

Ya, for the reason Tymon states. If they earn it they should get it, which is how my shell works. Several organics have been sold for cash over people that can use it. They didn't pop it, thems the rules~

In that case, I think its funny that you feel the need to criticise other Shell's rules...

 

[Tymon]

So you'd be ok with someone showing up to every event, popping 3 of his own (18k+ total zeni) who goes 0/3 watching as someone who does 6k zeni be able to lot it and having no chance because of YPYD.

It's a cumulative effort, the people continually helping deserve the most benefits. I'm not saying this to enforce myself getting items...I wasn't the first with organics nor with aurum boots. People decided they wanted them more than I did, and people with high attendance / zeni farming were able to get them without question of the validity.

There's a crucial point I tried to say here:

In this case, with ZNM, if the zeni used to pop the mob was gained with a large joint effort of taking photos, I don't think that there should be any singularity at all, everyone got the zeni, everyone should have a chance.

That I hope can clarify my post: in your scenario, you're absolutely right. Your LS gains zeni and stuff on an event based pattern, you pop on a pattern, and get gear on a pattern, YPYD has zero relevance at all there.

I wasn't actually refering to your ruleset, I was more refering to Shady in which it's my assumption that most of his members get their zeni on their own time, in which it WOULD be fair to to YPYD, at least in my opinion.

 

[Shady]

So you'd be ok with someone showing up to every event, popping 3 of his own (18k+ total zeni) who goes 0/3 watching as someone who does 6k zeni be able to lot it and having no chance because of YPYD.

The simple answer Yes, and I don't really know how you arrive at 18k zeni. T3 mobs cost 3k zeni and the pop items are rare/ex plus they take your tally seal to obtain so it's not possible to do 2 unless they warp back and get another pop, in which case it wouldn't be possible to do 3 because they lose their T2 seal as well. And as for the other person~ they wouldn't have a T3 pop unless they attended events right? So yea they made the effort to obtain the pop item, they should get the reward they earned, that's how my shell works. For T3's we'll do a round of pops and then we move on. If it didn't drop tonight, maybe it'll drop in two weeks when we do it again.

In that case, I think its funny that you feel the need to criticise other Shell's rules...

How is this unfair? Firstly lets get this straight~ who is most likely to want the Organics to use as main sword? Paladins right? Would it shock you that 3 out of 5 paladin's in my shell SOLD theirs? There are better swords out there or others better for tanking the type of NM's we typically fight in ZNM, such with dmg resistance or +enmity.

Think it's time for you to just stay on Ifrit and stay out of our threads.

I've been here virtually since this site's inception~ bite me. I aint goin nowhere ;p