Lockerbie bomber released on "Compassionate Grounds"

His release makes me feel ashamed, depressed even to be British.

Then leave. And don't bang the door on your way out.

I don't agree with them releasing him, but damn... you make it sound like because of it Britain is the most horrible nation in the world for it. Yeah, it's far from perfect...but what country isn't? Each time we talk about this, you say something like "Oh, I'll move to America or Japan" like they're utopian or something. But, as they say, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" - obviousy living in this country, you here alot of our own problems and not as much as anyone elses, but if you moved somewhere else you wouldn't hear about what goes on here as much and you'd hear about all the countries.

I hate to break it to you, but although you might hate it, England isn't that bad a place to live. You got it quite lucky really. So stop your bitching. There are people in countries where they really have a shit deal.
 
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Compassion is a function of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not a function of justice.

By its very definition, justice precludes forgiveness of the guilty.

The purpose of justice it to see to it that the guilty party, should their guilt be confirmed, suffer a punishment appropriate to the crime committed.

So.

Do I believe that the Lockerbie bomber should be released?

Yes.

Released into a tumbling bin filled with broken glass and angry bullet ants.

Set it on spin and leave it until the screaming stops.
 
Its not an idea, its what its meant for. It is both a punishment and rehabilitation. The whole point of prison is to rehabilitate them and have the convicts become contributing members of society once they are released. If all it was is a punishment, you might as well cut off a hand and be done with it.

The problem nowadays is that people don't seem to realize the whole point of prison - rehabilitation. The problem is that the whole thing falls flat on one thing: human nature. It isn't in human nature to forgive and forget, it isn't in human nature to give second chances, nor is it to trust. It is in human nature to be egoistical fucktards that care about nothing but themselves, and that goes both ways, both on the normal citizens and the criminals. Once rehabilitation is done, the next step is to get them out in to society, get them a job so they can start earning money and get a place to live, which is where people like you come in. If you own a company and someone that's been in prison for, say, selling drugs, you're not likely to give him a job. If this ex-criminal can not get a job, he will likely fall back in to his old ways of selling drugs, or other illegal things to survive. And then he'll end up back in prison again.

And therein lies the problem, because of human nature, criminals can't become contributing members of society, and thus fall back in to their old ways, leading to the classic mindset of "Once a criminal, always a criminal", as - surprisingly (notrly) - you've found your proof which strengthens your prejudice.

What's worse is for rapists, as people in America have all the legal rights they need to find out if a rapist is living in their neighborhood, which means there is NO chance in hell for them to become contributing members of society when people refuse to accept them.

I admit, and this will be somewhat contradictory to what I've said earlier, I would likely not hire a murdered, therein lies the beauty of NOT having the death penalty. There's virtually no way for them to become accepted members of society again. Life itself IS the punishment for them. Ending it would just do them a favor.



Nor is it by keeping him locked up for a few more week. You see, very few of you probably know the people he killed, so let me ask you, why does it matter for you, personally? Are you thinking "But he killed people!! He deserve the worst punishment possible!" Or are you thinking "Poor all the victim's family, the monster is walking free!"? See, he's already getting the worst punishment possible, in your eyes, as he's dying in either case, and likely pretty painfully as I doubt Libya has access to a lot of painkillers. As for the second one, his victims probably do not think "Thank god that monster is locked up!" every time they go to sleep. They only react negatively because they read in the papers that he's going free. Granted, to them it probably feels like a punch to the face that the man who killed their loved ones is going free. But in reality, it doesn't matter, he'll be gone soon anyway.

The reality is this: He's still a human, and like all humans, in my opinion, deserve a chance to be with their family before they die. Whether or not his victims didn't get to is a moot point. What's done is done, a lot of people don't get to spend time with their family when they die, car crash victims included.

Justice won't ever truly be served until humans learn to look beyond their own feelings and egoism, a skill the majority of the human population does not possess.

Case in point.

Why does this matter? whether he dies of cancer in prison or not, doesn't suddenly "enlight" all of the victim's loved ones the truth of how they died.

The truth is, they were murdered. That's the plain truth. Will him dieing in jail suddenly change that fact? Will that alter the past and suddenly make them die in their loved ones arms with pretty words and lots of tears?

The truth is, they probably wouldn't even care if he died in jail, they would feel the same way, they just think it sucks that he get to die out in the free. That's their hatred talking.


There are many flaws in your post, but I'll mainly address the bolded. Prison is for rehabilitation and not punishment? If that is the case, then what is a life sentence for? Rehabilitation for you afterlife? (forgetting, of course, that life sentences rarely actually mean FOR THE REST OF THE CRIMINAL'S LIFE)

Some people stay in prison until the day they die, and rightly so. If an 80-year-old is convicted of murder and given 25 years in prison, that's not for rehabilitation, that's so he never sets foot in the free world again. You're trying to take the moral high-ground and accuse anyone, who believes this man should rot in prison, of being unreasonable.

Murderers get life in jail. The murder of 270~ people should get 270~ life sentences, not 8 years. The fact he has cancer, and is dying (apparently), is the moot point here. That man should rot in jail for the rest of his miserable "life."

You ask why it matters whether he dies in prison or gets to spend his last days with his family. No, it won't enlighten the families, but yes, it will slightly, ever so slightly, ease their horrendous pain. They'll know that the man responsable for killing their loved ones is going to die in prison, and will not receive the pleasure of seeing his family again, ad pleasure he denied 270 other people. This isn't and eye for an eye, this is a complete and utter lack of justice.

I'm not ashamed to be Scottish, you'll struggle to find someone more patriotic; I'm ashamed of the government's decision to release a man based on financial and "moral" grounds, rather than for any sort of justice. This decision was made to make Scotland look "independant" and "not scared of what anyone else says", in addition to the financial implications. The lies, deceit, and all round general idiocy of this move makes me ashamed of the people leading my country.

You don't need to have known any of the people who died on that tragic aeroplane, or even any of their families, to understand that this man being released because he has an illness will make an already tragic experience so much worse.

This man has served just over 11 days in prison for each person who died on that plane. I knew none of them, nor their families, nor Megrahi himself, and I believe he should still be in prison.

However, it appears you disagree? Does that mean EVERY PRISONER in every prison who has a terminal illness will be released, no matter the crime? They don't come much worse than 270 counts of murder, so I await your response with great curiosity. Should we release every criminal who is terminally ill? Or just criminals with a government willing to pay a great deal of money for the prisoner's release?

Unbefuckinglievable.
 
There are many flaws in your post, but I'll mainly address the bolded. Prison is for rehabilitation and not punishment? If that is the case, then what is a life sentence for? Rehabilitation for you afterlife? (forgetting, of course, that life sentences rarely actually mean FOR THE REST OF THE CRIMINAL'S LIFE)
Notice how I mentioned it is both a form of punishment and rehabilitation, although its main meaning is rehabilitation, hence the activities in prison.

I am fully aware that some prisoners will be in there for the rest of their lives, but just because some prisoners are there for thew rest of their lives doesn't change that prison is also a rehabilitation center.

Some people stay in prison until the day they die, and rightly so. If an 80-year-old is convicted of murder and given 25 years in prison, that's not for rehabilitation, that's so he never sets foot in the free world again. You're trying to take the moral high-ground and accuse anyone, who believes this man should rot in prison, of being unreasonable.
I did not say they are unreasonable. I said they believe he should be in prison is because of personal feelings of hatred towards him for taking someones life. That isn't unreasonable, it is quite reasonable. It is not, however, necessarily not the correct course of action.

Murderers get life in jail. The murder of 270~ people should get 270~ life sentences, not 8 years. The fact he has cancer, and is dying (apparently), is the moot point here. That man should rot in jail for the rest of his miserable "life."
I don't think he should get 1 year for every person he killed, 11 year minimum for each person he killed, double for kids, would be better imo.

You ask why it matters whether he dies in prison or gets to spend his last days with his family. No, it won't enlighten the families, but yes, it will slightly, ever so slightly, ease their horrendous pain. They'll know that the man responsable for killing their loved ones is going to die in prison, and will not receive the pleasure of seeing his family again, ad pleasure he denied 270 other people. This isn't and eye for an eye, this is a complete and utter lack of justice.
As I said, it only serves to ease their pain. However, the only, and I mean only, reason they would feel more pain now than they did before is because they learned of the fact that he's released. He wasn't pardoned for what he did, he was released, to live his remaining few weeks with his family. Whether or not they consider it justice is a moot point, and goes back to the "ego" think I talked about before.

You don't need to have known any of the people who died on that tragic aeroplane, or even any of their families, to understand that this man being released because he has an illness will make an already tragic experience so much worse.
I'm sure it will, but their pain will pass.

However, it appears you disagree? Does that mean EVERY PRISONER in every prison who has a terminal illness will be released, no matter the crime? They don't come much worse than 270 counts of murder, so I await your response with great curiosity. Should we release every criminal who is terminally ill? Or just criminals with a government willing to pay a great deal of money for the prisoner's release?

Unbefuckinglievable.
If they don't run a risk of repeating their crime once outside, and if it is certain they will die within a week, or at the very most 2-3 weeks, then yes. I do not think that is entirely unreasonable.

sorry but in my opinion for certain crimes there IS no rehabilitation. noone here is talking about a drug dealer, Rehabilitation for murding 250+ people, thats just laughable. and as far as rapist not being able to live a normal life after they get out. GOOD, they are lucky to be walking free period, i would have no problem with life in prison or even capital punishment for rapist. guess what, i guarantee you whoever he raped isnt living a normal life.
The problem with this is, at least in Sweden, women are blaming men for raping them as a way of revenge or as an act of hatred over their boyfriends breaking up with them. Or even because they regret it the next day, even though they were willing during the act.

These men shouldn't have to suffer for the rest of their lives simply because a woman hold a grudge against them.

As for the men that truly did rape someone, it is horrible, I agree. Especially for the woman. Personally I think forced castration and rehabilitation is a decent punishment for sexual offenders, as most of the time, it is a psychological problem. While it isn't an excuse for their actions, they obviously need help. It would be much cheaper to rehabilitate them and castrate them then it would be to lock them up for good. That space would be better used for murderers, no?

Also, i wonder what the reguler murderer joes chances are at getting released on "compassionate grounds" you know, the guy that only killed 1 or 2 people but DOESN'T have an entire oil rich country pulling strings, and offering deals for him?
Probably none, the guy was lucky in that sense.

Oh, and before you ask - If someone I knew were among those victims, I would probably be upset they released him too. And I would probably bitch and whine then too, because, as I said, feelings would be involved. Feelings have a way of interfering.

Hence why I asked if you knew someone amongst them, as you're mixing personal feelings in to it.

I do not lack sympathy, I can imagine well how they feel, but it is that, and imagine, and doesn't have to interfere. It isn't actually a real emotion, unlike what those that DID lose someone have. They have all the right in the world to complain. That being said, the anger will still pass, as it is nothing remotely similar to what they felt when they learned that someone they knew died.
 
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you say the pain of the victims family's will pass, but i say so would the pain of the terrorists family.

you say its our own personal feelings and emotions that make us want him to die in prison, i could easily say its personal feelings and emotions that drives someone to want a mass murderer to be released from prison because he has a terminal illness.

Maybe the world would be a less violent more logical place if we were all emotionless robots. But It'd be a shitty world regardless.

when someone's sentenced to die in prison, i think they should die in prison. regardless of when that death comes. It's not my hatred for that mass murderer that makes me say that, its my desire to see a justice system actually mean something. and actually carries out the sentences it hands down, regardless of emotion for the prisoner.

Compassion DOES cloud justice. on both sides. It can make a man scream for the head of a murderer, or make a man scream for the release of that same murderer

I just don't see how you can hold the value of the compassion for the mass murderer, above the compassion for the victims and victims families.
 
Yes, it would be a shitty world. But emotion and personal feelings doesn't have to control everything we do, nor does it have to control our opinions. I don't like the guy - he's a murderer for christ's sake - but I still stand by my opinion.

What do you think a judge and jury's job is? They are to remain neutral to both sides as to not let their feelings interfere. If it does, the verdict itself can be seen as invalid and require a retrial. If there's a rape trial, and the judge feel bad for the woman, the judge might be ignoring important proof towards the offender's innocence, and judge as guilty, simply because feelings got in the way. The same can be said in all trials, and is why feelings are not allowed to get involved, towards both sides.

Feelings have their place, and that is with the ones that personally know the victim.

I don't hold the compassion for the victims and victims family above that of the mass murderer, I hold them equal. I feel sorry for the man's family, and the victim's family, and I think he should get to spend some time with his family.

Yes, it is sad that the victims didn't get to spend time with their family before they died, but the past is the past, and a lot of people die without getting to spent time with his family. The families of the victims themselves did get some closure when he got convicted and sent to jail, and they'll get some closure once he dies as well. Even a mass murderer have feelings (a good example of this is Iceman, very interesting interview), and he too should get some closure, as should his family and friends.
 
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Uzor there's one thing you said that really caught my attention. Only slightly related topic.

Men who get sentenced for raped, men convicted of such a crime cannot be convicted without hard evidence. When women scream rape, they have several very intrusive tests done to help prove their accusations as truth. They could not get away with having a boyfriend convicted and locked away if they were willing. And if this happens in Sweden, the law enforcement/justice system etc are extremely lacking.

btw - I agree with BB in which someone should be given 1 life sentence per a victim when the charge is murder. No exceptions, no plea deals. We should wash our hands of them.
 
Prison may be a rehabilitation center in some cases, but I really dont see that being the case when a man killed 270 people. Therefore I dont see how that fact has any relevance to this thread.
 
It makes me laugh when someone defends the choice to "compassionately" release this piece of excrement from prison yet criticizes the compassion felt for those who lost their lives and their families.

I knew some of those people who got killed. Some of them were Syracuse University students on their way to study in Scotland. Their lives were taken. 270 of them. Not because this piece of shit was defending his own life, or because he had to to save his family from starving... no... 270 people's lives were snuffed because of some socially defunct fuckhead with no moral compass and no "compassion." You call "justice" people getting rehabilitated in prison. In some cases I agree with you. And in others, I call it a joke. You know why prison doesn't work? Because there are worthless, evil, corrupt and empty people in this world - and all the free cable and college educations in the world isn't going to cure what fucking ails them.

Fuck him. Fuck him because he took 270 innocent lives trying to be a hero to a bunch of terrorist cocksuckers. Fuck him because he got cancer after living 21 years longer than the people he murdered. Fuck him because if it were one of my loved ones, I'd have been praying there was a bullet in his head before he got on his plane home. But then that would be real justice wouldn't it? And that's too much for some people to take.

You call it emotion to feel for the ones lost instead of the one who erased them? I call it being a human being. And I'd be prouder to be on their side any day of the goddamned week.
 
It makes me laugh when someone defends the choice to "compassionately" release this piece of excrement from prison yet criticizes the compassion felt for those who lost their lives and their families.
No where did I criticize the compassion felt for the ones that died. In fact, I even said it was natural.

Prison may be a rehabilitation center in some cases, but I really dont see that being the case when a man killed 270 people. Therefore I dont see how that fact has any relevance to this thread.

It is for all people, some just don't get out. The fact it got brought up is because someone said "People have this idea that prison is a rehabilitation center and not a punishment", which is wrong. It is both. Always.

Whether some people don't get out, or some people don't care and is criminal even while in prison, it doesn't matter. All prisoners have the right to rehabilitation. And all prisoners should be treated equally.
 
Then leave. And don't bang the door on your way out.

I don't agree with them releasing him, but damn... you make it sound like because of it Britain is the most horrible nation in the world for it. Yeah, it's far from perfect...but what country isn't? Each time we talk about this, you say something like "Oh, I'll move to America or Japan" like they're utopian or something. But, as they say, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" - obviousy living in this country, you here alot of our own problems and not as much as anyone elses, but if you moved somewhere else you wouldn't hear about what goes on here as much and you'd hear about all the countries.

I hate to break it to you, but although you might hate it, England isn't that bad a place to live. You got it quite lucky really. So stop your bitching. There are people in countries where they really have a shit deal.

Look, what I am about to say is really harsh, but this is me being brutally honest, and I don't want you to take it personally, as were friends.

I'm sorry but I had very little hope for the UK for the past year or so, and this just further cements how incompetent the UK really is, and it isn't just me who is ashamed to be British right now by the way, several people around where I live have expressed the same feelings, so please don't single me out because I'm British American, others feel the same, and I'm sure you feel the same way too.

I'm really sorry, but I do read the news about other countries, and for the most part, the grass is most definitely greener and safer. The UK just released a mass murderer on the grounds that he has cancer, what kind of message do you think that will send to other potential terrorists and mass murderers?

In my opinion, the people who released the bomber should be tried for Treason!
 
The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side, until you're ON the other side.

There are exceptions of course, I doubt you'd think the grass is greener in Afghanistan or Iraq, but yeah.

And you surely throw the word treason lightly. Do you even know what treason is if you think they should trial them for treason?

Also, fun info

Compassionate release is an established feature of the British judicial system when a prisoner is near death. According to officials, there have been 30 requests for release on compassionate grounds in Scotland over the last decade, 23 of which were approved.
"I am a family man: first and foremost I am a son, husband, father and grandfather," al-Megrahi wrote. "I have been separated from my family as a result of what I consider and unjust conviction. I have tried to bear that with a degree of equanimity and dignity."
Gadhafi engineered a rapprochement with his former critics following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He renounced terrorism, dismantled Libya's secret nuclear program, accepted his government's responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and paid compensation to the victims' families.
Freeing al-Megrahi divided the Lockerbie victims' families, with many in Britain in favor and many in the U.S. adamantly opposed.
Briton Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora died on Flight 103, welcomed the Libyan's release, saying many questions remained about what led to the bomb that exploded in the cargo hold.


"I think he should be able to go straight home to his family and spend his last days there," Swire told the BBC. "I don't believe for a moment this man was involved in the way he was found to be involved."
The former Libyan intelligence officer was sentenced to serve a minimum of 27 years in a Scottish prison for Britain's deadliest terrorist attack. But a 2007 review of his case found grounds for an appeal of his conviction, and many in Britain believe he is innocent.

Now, I'm not saying he is innocent, but imagine if he WOULD be. Don't he deserve to go home to his home country in that case?
 
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The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side, until you're ON the other side.

There are exceptions of course, I doubt you'd think the grass is greener in Afghanistan or Iraq, but yeah.

And you surely throw the word treason lightly. Do you even know what treason is if you think they should trial them for treason?

Also, fun info

Now, I'm not saying he is innocent, but imagine if he WOULD be. Don't he deserve to go home to his home country in that case?

Ok, maybe I was too harsh with that.

And IF he was innocent, then why the hell was he convicted in the first place, was he just used as a tool?

IF he was innocent then the people who falsely charged him should be charged and an apology should be given as a form of compensation, IF he was indeed innocent.
 
Why is anyone innocent sentenced?

Really, Gerry, are you telling me no one has every been sentenced wrongfully? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't England stop with the death penalty after they found out the last guy to get it was innocent?

Its one of the main reasons I think release on compassionate grounds is perfectly OK, because innocent people have always and will always occasionally get convicted. You can't do a "If he's innocent, then its OK!" because you can't KNOW if he was innocent, as court found him guilty. In people's eyes, that's all that matters.
 
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Why is anyone innocent sentenced?

Really, Gerry, are you telling me no one has every been sentenced wrongfully? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't England stop with the death penalty after they found out the last guy to get it was innocent?

Its one of the main reasons I think release on compassionate grounds is perfectly OK, because innocent people have always and will always occasionally get convicted. You can't do a "If he's innocent, then its OK!" because you can't KNOW if he was innocent, as court found him guilty. In people's eyes, that's all that matters.

To be honest, too many questions about this whole fiasco is running in my mind so it is kind of making things to difficult to answer without having some major thought going into it.
 
The UK just released a mass murderer on the grounds that he has cancer, what kind of message do you think that will send to other potential terrorists and mass murderers?]

Get terminal cancer, and you get released early! --ohwait!

But seriously, I doubt he would have been released if he was gonna pose a danger to anyone else. So whats the point in keeping him in prison if he's going to die anyways?

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Also about the death penality -- whats the point in threatening suicide bombers with the death penality? :crazy:

"Terrorist 1: Lets blow ourselves up on some crowded street.
Terrorist 2: Well... lets not. We might get the death penalty."
 
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"Terrorist 1: Lets blow ourselves up on some crowded street.
Terrorist 2: Well... lets not. We might get the death penalty."
The logic... it is flawless!
 
Anyways Gerry, I didn't think you were Scottish?
 
1/4 Scottish.

:facepalm:

Would it not be more accurate today that it "Makes you ashamed to be 1/4 Scottish" instead of generalising it completely?
 
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